Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread IV

The Lost Sheep

Hagz wrote: »

That would be a shame. He impressed me when he played for the u20s. Why do you say that?

It's pretty hard to develop locks. You can't really tell whether a teenager is going to develop to be 6'5 and over. Aside from Iain Henderson, who are Ulster producing? They had to take in Alan O'Connor. Munster are blessed with the experienced Ryan, DOC and POC, but take those guys away and there's not much in the way of young prospects. Dave Foley is coming along well, but he'll be 26 in a few weeks.

That being said, I think things are looking a bit more positive. Thornbury, Molony and Murphy may not be in the mould of Iain Henderson, but they are all tidy players and you would expect at least one of them to come good. And then there's a couple more in the school's system who look to have a lot of potential.

Munster have 3 decent options in academy and with Holland(solid pro) and Foley etc they are well stocked in row.
Very very few are in mould of Henderson at that age and on law of averages at least 1 will be decent option in coming years.
There is more than likely another few in the underage system between schools and youths as well as players with potential to go up the ranks who were missed at u/age playing in AIL

phog

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Munster have 3 decent options in academy and with Holland(solid pro) and Foley etc they are well stocked in row.
Very very few are in mould of Henderson at that age and on law of averages at least 1 will be decent option in coming years.
There is more than likely another few in the underage system between schools and youths as well as players with potential to go up the ranks who were missed at u/age playing in AIL

Madigan, McCarthy & O'Shea?

Of the three I've seen more of O'Shea and would be well impressed with him, a few lads at work really rate Madigan but I think he's been injured a bit this season.

AFAIK, McCarthy is a nephew of Galwey so being a lock is in the blood.

yuinc

phog wrote: »

Madigan, McCarthy & O'Shea?

Of the three I've seen more of O'Shea and would be well impressed with him, a few lads at work really rate Madigan but I think he's been injured a bit this season.

AFAIK, McCarthy is a nephew of Galwey so being a lock is in the blood.

John Madigan has missed the whole season basically, recently back but this year has been a right off for him. Still he is young, turns 20 next September.

O'Shea is massive physically and a bit of a project imo.

McCarthy is the smallest of the three and missed most of this season with injury. Isn't the best athlete but a good player.

Frank Ryan is in the sub-academy and probably just as tall as O'Shea.. has been out injured since the Ireland U19 game versus Oz..

phog

I think O'Shea played in the B&I Cup q/f game in Donnybrook.

The Lost Sheep

phog wrote: »

Madigan, McCarthy & O'Shea?

Of the three I've seen more of O'Shea and would be well impressed with him, a few lads at work really rate Madigan but I think he's been injured a bit this season.

AFAIK, McCarthy is a nephew of Galwey so being a lock is in the blood.

Id rate Madigan the highest of the 3. All very big men physically already with McCarthy probably the best footballer of the lot considering his gaelic and basketball experience. Madigan has struggled all season with injury and like McCarthy, who is Gaillimhs nephew, has "pedigree" on his side as his dad, also John, played with Munster and Bohs and had played on Munster side that drew 3-3 with All Blacks in 73.

yuinc

phog wrote: »

I think O'Shea played in the B&I Cup q/f game in Donnybrook.

yeah he has played a decent amount of B&I this season I think.. wouldn't judge him too harshly based on that game..

[Jackass]

I like the discussion of the young players, the forward planning that must go into running an academy is mind boggling.

I think we packed the academy full of front row players, or at least shifted heavy focus onto that area around the 2008 mark, Corrighan was already gone and old hats like Ollie Le Roux was heading off and we were fully relient on signings like Wright, Van Der Linde, Ross and using guys like McCormack, we were really patching up our front row (with the exception of Healy - a freak) and loaded the academy and the school kids of that day are not the likes of Jack McGrath and Marty Moore.

I'd like to see us do something similar with lock. I wouldn't say any of the talent we've lost over the last few years would be considered massive losses, but maybe we're just not spreading the net wide enough. It took a lot of work to get Devin Toner up to the level he is at now, but with a 6'11" frame (you can't teach that) he was persevered with and is now comfortably a Heineken Cup and international standard lock, when so many people (maybe outside of Leinster) had written him off.

I'd say Thornburry could be the next senior Leinster lock produced, I don't think guys like Marshall or Kearney or Sherrif are big enough to be a top class lock. I think the cut off point needs to be about 6'7" these days, given that back-row forwards, auxiliary lineout operators, are often hitting 6'4" - 6'5" in plenty of teams.

I agree with Beur that impatience has been a bit of a problem, Flanagan springs to mind in that respect, he wasn't exceptionally tall (6'6" I think), but he was a heavy, physical guy. Thornburry is a decent size and weight, 6'7" and ~110kg and could pack on another 5kg+ with intensive training to bring him through on development contract. He has a good skillset too and is the next hope at second row for me.

I definitely think we need a big signing in the second row for next season though. Cullen being on the coaching team will be great for young locks as I'm sure part of his role will be spending lots of time with young locks, showing them the ropes and there's no one more legendary than Leo at Leinster, but a top-class lock, as often said about top class players at any club, pass on a lot of knowledge to younger guys and just having them in the squad can pay dividends down the line.

phog

What happened Route 66? Anyone come out of that?

yuinc

not spreading the net wide enough?

there are a hell of a lot more potential props walking around Leinster than 6'5+ athletes who have the ability/training from a young age to be a top level rugby player.. I would say there was 1 possibly three players who were over 6'5 playing senior cup this year..

Flanagan needed gametime and experience, he is getting way more than he might have gotten at Leinster in France.. Hopefully his progress is being closely followed and if he progresses he will certainly have every chance at coming back..

yuinc

phog wrote: »

What happened Route 66? Anyone come out of that?

was a decent idea but nothing came from it..

[Jackass]

yuinc wrote: »

not spreading the net wide enough?

there are a hell of a lot more potential props walking around Leinster than 6'5+ athletes who have the ability/training from a young age to be a top level rugby player.. I would say there was 1 possibly three players who were over 6'5 playing senior cup this year..

Flanagan needed gametime and experience, he is getting way more than he might have gotten at Leinster in France.. Hopefully his progress is being closely followed and if he progresses he will certainly have every chance at coming back..

Yeah I don't know how many players of that size there are, definitely the most difficult criteria to meet, but by not spreading the net wide enough I literally mean taking on possibly not the best players but who meet the size requirements and seeing how much they can improve with some academy / sub-academy training rather than waiting for the odd diamond in the rough.

Flanagan was a very decent player, worth keeping an eye on, but I'd definitely shift focus to some of the younger lads.

rockbeast

phog wrote: »

What happened Route 66? Anyone come out of that?

Route 64 made a fortune:D

Nah, they were all over 18 and they couldn't hit rucks...It's very hard to hit a ruck at that age if your entire sporting career to that point you've been told to keep your back straight...

yuinc

I think they do but they can only get as far as the raw materials available to them and each u18 schools age group over the last four years has produced one lock that is at least 6'6: Gavin Thornbury(1993), Ross Molony(1994), Josh Murphy(1995) and James Ryan(1996).

Thornbury and Molony are already in the academy and Murphy will probably join them this summer or next.

The youth's system hasn't been able to produce anyone since Flanagan..

A player who would be a project is Robbie Collins who is around 6'8, he went to Clongowes last year but hasn't been involved with Leinster under-age teams as of yet. He is currently playing with Lansdowne under-20 and is eligible for under-20 again next season.

rockbeast

A "Passionate" thread about the future #4/5 for Leinster?

We must all be "locked"!

*and 6'6"

Larbre34

With the flurry for contracts in the lower ranks ongoing, who is leaving the senior squad?

O'Driscoll and Cullen we know. O'Connell and Hudson to Bristol too.

Surely Denton and Auva'a? Any word of Bossie? He's been solid enough but getting on a bit, with two young guys behind him needing games? Dundon and Bent?

Was very surprised to run into Goodman in his dress blues on Friday night, thought he may have slipped away Berquist style by now..

CIARAN_BOYLE

Larbre34 wrote: »

With the flurry for contracts in the lower ranks ongoing, who is leaving the senior squad?

O'Driscoll and Cullen we know. O'Connell and Hudson to Bristol too.

Surely Denton and Auva'a? Any word of Bossie? He's been solid enough but getting on a bit, with two young guys behind him needing games? Dundon and Bent?

Was very surprised to run into Goodman in his dress blues on Friday night, thought he may have slipped away Berquist style by now..

Bent 2 year renewal, Auva'a off to England.

Unknown about the rest.

Heroditas

Denton is a useful guy to have around and certainly he's performed far better than Roux whenever either player has played for the first team this season. I'd keep him for another season at least - he's a handy player to have in the squad.

EDIT: for some reason I thought Denton signed in 2012, he actually signed in 2011? Bloody hell. Time is flying by.

former legend

Larbre34 wrote: »

Was very surprised to run into Goodman in his dress blues on Friday night, thought he may have slipped away Berquist style by now..

He's been at nearly all the home games this season, fair play to him. Maybe the fact that he's still here means he's going to be kept on?

I'd love to see him get another contract because he was excellent last year and my heart goes out to the poor baxtard over his injuries this season. Then again, he's 31, he's NIQ and Noel Reid has really stepped up to the mark in his absence so you'd wonder if he's really needed?

yuinc

No reason to keep Goodman.
Auva'a has to go.
Bent is so average also.
Denton has improved and is an okay 4th option at lock.
roux rumoured to be leaving early.

Larbre34

Maybe we could get Stevenson thrown in with Payne, always liked his approach to things!

salmocab

where is dundon contract wise does anybody know, I rate him in so far as being a 3rd choice hooker goes albeit behind 2 internationals so gets good enough game time and always looked good enough good darts too. Also regards Bent he is probably at best 3rd choice for both sides and I would be surprised if many teams in the Rabo have a 3rd choice prop as good as Bent, he is a good solid pro 12 prop and it seems right that we have him in reserve until 1 or 2 of the younger guys get up to level.

CIARAN_BOYLE

salmocab wrote: »

where is dundon contract wise does anybody know, I rate him in so far as being a 3rd choice hooker goes albeit behind 2 internationals so gets good enough game time and always looked good enough good darts too. Also regards Bent he is probably at best 3rd choice for both sides and I would be surprised if many teams in the Rabo have a 3rd choice prop as good as Bent, he is a good solid pro 12 prop and it seems right that we have him in reserve until 1 or 2 of the younger guys get up to level.

I'd rather keep JOC and let Bent go if it had come down to a choice to be honest. That said he is probably one of the top 5 3rd choice LHs in Europe and top 10 3rd choice THs in Europe

Dundon's contract expires this season but I would imagine it should be renewed

salmocab

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I'd rather keep JOC and let Bent go if it had come down to a choice to be honest. That said he is probably one of the top 5 3rd choice LHs in Europe and top 10 3rd choice THs in Europe

Dundon's contract expires this season but I would imagine it should be renewed

Yeah but I suppose for next season Bent would be a better option than JOC who will probably come on with a lot of playing time which he wouldn't really get at Leinster yet, I think Bents reputation suffers because he was dropped in it by Kidney.
Would be delighted if Dundon signs on for another 2 seasons as Im not sure we have a young hooker quite ready to make that step up just yet.

former legend

yuinc wrote: »

No reason to keep Goodman.
Auva'a has to go.
Bent is so average also.
Denton has improved and is an okay 4th option at lock.
roux rumoured to be leaving early.

He's a very good 12 who can cover 10. Not a bad option to have in the squad; just ask the Munster fans.

.ak

I'd be happy with Goodman but from a very business perspective I can't see Leinster hanging onto him. He could be crocked now. He's had two sets of surgery on the same achilles without even playing a minutes rugby this season. If he was fully fit and we were getting him for peanuts then yep, he'd be a great addition. But I don't think he'll ever be 100%, and I'd rather we tried to sign a slightly higher profile SXV type centre, preferably an outside centre.

CatFromHue

I don't see why Munster wouldn't sign him now.

He's 32 in Oct so not that old really and could fill a void for them for 1-2 seasons anyway.

irishbucsfan

Having Goodman could prove valuable if D'Arcy is needed to cover 13.

We really need a fair bit of depth at center as the talent level their declines. If we don't find long term solutions at 12/13 next season we're reaching the point of either just chucking s**t at the wall to see what sticks or signing overseas imports.


With my purely Leinster-based hat on, I'd like to see us pilfer Henshaw and bring back Sheridan and give them a go.

Buer

former legend wrote: »

He's a very good 12 who can cover 10. Not a bad option to have in the squad; just ask the Munster fans.

But has never lined out at 10 for us. To be honest, Reid has stepped up and occupies his role now. Don't think his staying makes any sense particularly when he occupies a NIQ spot.

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

But has never lined out at 10 for us. To be honest, Reid has stepped up and occupies his role now. Don't think his staying makes any sense particularly when he occupies a NIQ spot.

At Reid's age you can't count on him getting through a season injury-free though. He's in the 21-24 high risk bracket. Goodman of course may be no better.

Not sure how much Leinster are concerned about the NIQ count?

Dravokivich

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Having Goodman could prove valuable if D'Arcy is needed to cover 13.

We really need a fair bit of depth at center as the talent level their declines. If we don't find long term solutions at 12/13 next season we're reaching the point of either just chucking s**t at the wall to see what sticks or signing overseas imports.


With my purely Leinster-based hat on, I'd like to see us pilfer Henshaw and bring back Sheridan and give them a go.

This is my thinking as well. It really depends on what Leinster are looking to do in the centre from next season.