Dublin GAA Discussion Thread MOD WARNING POST #2944

Bonniedog

JRant wrote: »

Ah I think he's just as entitled to give his take on it as anyone else. Plus he's not wrong in what he said either. We were a shambles and didn't react in any way to what Kilkenny were doing.

If we want to make the step up then that's exactly the type of criticism that needs to be taken on board. It shouldn't be acceptable to the county board to get beaten by that sort of a scoreline or continually underperform as we do. It wouldn't be acceptable for Tipp, Kilkenny or any other top team.

If we want to keep the talented young players coming through in the hurling set up then we need to have the same high standards the other top teams have or we'll keep losing them to the football. Right now if you had to choose between the big or small ball then it's not much of a choice really.

We've gone backwards since winning the league a couple of years ago yet the squad is nowhere near as bad as the results would suggest.

Not disagreeing with the substance of what you are saying, or indeed Keaney.

don't think half an hour after your mates been handed their bollix is best time to be telling them what they already know... that's all.


and same chap was properly p1ssed off when Anthony made the remark about picking fellas up at the Red Cow ... Same place different year!

JRant

Bonniedog wrote: »

Not disagreeing with the substance of what you are saying, or indeed Keaney.

don't think half an hour after your mates been handed their bollix is best time to be telling them what they already know... that's all.


and same chap was properly p1ssed off when Anthony made the remark about picking fellas up at the Red Cow ... Same place different year!

Yeah I can see where you're coming from alright but that's the nature of social media these days and he was probably just as angry about the result as many of us supporters were.

corny

It was personal though. He didn't just say Dublin were naive or tactically void of ideas. He stopped just short of #Cunninghamout!

He'd have been better sticking to objective criticism imo.

Bonniedog

I couldn't give a flying fk about Cunningham. He's gone, and Sean fortune should get the job.

That's neither here nor there.


Keaney knows all about Dublin players being slagged off in the media..... should know better. that's all I'm saying.

ProudDUB

Just read the AFL 1 weekly roundup there on the Twitter machine. Looks like Paddy Andrews lined out for Brigid's during the week, so fingers crossed he'll be fit for the Meath game. Back injuries can be so tricky. Kev Mc & Mannion got some game time with their clubs too, so hopefully that'll sharpen them up too. Neither of them were at their best in KK.

Past30Now

ProudDUB wrote: »

Just read the AFL 1 weekly roundup there on the Twitter machine. Looks like Paddy Andrews lined out for Brigid's during the week, so fingers crossed he'll be fit for the Meath game. Back injuries can be so tricky. Kev Mc & Mannion got some game time with their clubs too, so hopefully that'll sharpen them up too. Neither of them were at their best in KK.

I was at the Kilmacud vs Castleknock match. Mannion played well, was a handful for our defence. I didn't notice him coming off, and if he did it was very late in the match. 1 point win for Crokes.

ProudDUB

That's good to hear. Proper games are what players need at this time of year, not endless training sessions. Fair play to Jim Gavin.

DoctaDee

ProudDUB wrote: »

Just read the AFL 1 weekly roundup there on the Twitter machine. Looks like Paddy Andrews lined out for Brigid's during the week, so fingers crossed he'll be fit for the Meath game. Back injuries can be so tricky. Kev Mc & Mannion got some game time with their clubs too, so hopefully that'll sharpen them up too. Neither of them were at their best in KK.

Actually saw the game .. Paddy was flying - Kev Mc scored 1-4 I think and da brudder 0-3

Bonniedog

Was at the 21s last night. Not a very convincing performance. Never really looked like being beaten, but hard to see them beating Galway or any of the Munster teams, if they win Leinster.

Realt Dearg Sec

Bonniedog wrote: »

Was at the 21s last night. Not a very convincing performance. Never really looked like being beaten, but hard to see them beating Galway or any of the Munster teams, if they win Leinster.

Didn't see it, was it a case of westmeath had already won their all Ireland the last day? Or were they just not up to the level? Just still trying to gauge whether Kilkenny were that bad or they were that good...expect it was a mix of both.

As for the dubs, they seem to have a proper outfit in place now, given they dispatched a highly fancied Wexford side. Any seniors in there who won't be going over to the dark side?

Bonniedog

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Didn't see it, was it a case of westmeath had already won their all Ireland the last day? Or were they just not up to the level? Just still trying to gauge whether Kilkenny were that bad or they were that good...expect it was a mix of both.

As for the dubs, they seem to have a proper outfit in place now, given they dispatched a highly fancied Wexford side. Any seniors in there who won't be going over to the dark side?

Westmeath were good. Led for good part of the game. Both teams looked a bit cagey, as if not knowing what to expect from the other! Tough physical game, but clean.

Ref was truly dreadful. Not biased - both teams had horrendous calls against them. In fact our fellas got some handy frees when game was in balance. You wonder what they are watching sometimes.


Dual thing is nearly gone you will be glad to hear Realt!

I think 21s management has made proper calls regarding players. Winning 21s is realistic aim. Seniors are not going anywhere.

Kavrocks

Bonniedog wrote: »

I think 21s management has made proper calls regarding players.

Just to add to this I think Cunningham has done well trying to incorporate a lot of the 21s early too. We won't win anything this year but with a proper conveyor belt we may come close in 2 or 3 years. It's also a deterrent to players going in the wrong direction if they are playing senior hurling early.

Bonniedog

Kavrocks wrote: »

Just to add to this I think Cunningham has done well trying to incorporate a lot of the 21s early too. We won't win anything this year but with a proper conveyor belt we may come close in 2 or 3 years. It's also a deterrent to players going in the wrong direction if they are playing senior hurling early.

In fairness, he does seem interested. Will he still be there next year? Not sure he will. I think he does have an overall view of where Dublin hurling should be, but hard for someone on three year contract and not living here to do that.


I may be pessimist but I just don't think club hurling is high enough standard to produce a team that will All Ireland. Dublin players only start to play at serious level when they are on county teams.

Dyr

Bonniedog wrote: »

I may be pessimist but I just don't think club hurling is high enough standard to produce a team that will All Ireland. Dublin players only start to play at serious level when they are on county teams.

Probably not, I noticed the under 21s against wexford that the wexford lads were lifting and controlling the ball without breaking their pace far more than the dublin lads.


You keep losing county hurlers to the big ball then dublin hurling will never be at a serious level IMHO

its not very palatable but there's a case to be made for telling lads at 17-18 that they can forget about county hurling as backup plan for not making the senior football team. Make the commitment now or else a lad who will takes your place. Though I believe the football setup already have this in place to some degree...

Bonniedog

Bambi wrote: »

Probably not, I noticed the under 21s against wexford that the wexford lads were lifting and controlling the ball without breaking their pace far more than the dublin lads.


You keep losing county hurlers to the big ball then dublin hurling will never be at a serious level IMHO

its not very palatable but there's a case to be made for telling lads at 17-18 that they can forget about county hurling as backup plan for not making the senior football team. Make the commitment now or else a lad who will takes your place. Though I believe the football setup already have this in place to some degree...

Other than O'Callaghan, the dual thing has not been a problem this year.

Anyway, football will always have the whip hand. It is six years ago now, but am still annoyed over Gilroy telling Rory he couldn't play in Leinster 21 hurling final. Now, where is he?

ProudDUB

Bambi wrote: »

Probably not, I noticed the under 21s against wexford that the wexford lads were lifting and controlling the ball without breaking their pace far more than the dublin lads.


You keep losing county hurlers to the big ball then dublin hurling will never be at a serious level IMHO

its not very palatable but there's a case to be made for telling lads at 17-18 that they can forget about county hurling as backup plan for not making the senior football team. Make the commitment now or else a lad who will takes your place. Though I believe the football setup already have this in place to some degree...

Getting players to commit to one code earlier, may sound sensible on paper, but I'm not sure if it's workable in reality. The lure of glory with the footballers, is always going to remain huge for lads, who are at a very impressionable age. Forcing them to commit to one code even earlier, may have the effect of driving more lads towards the footballers & away from hurling, making the problem even worse.

If some of them decide to return to hurling later (as the football isn't working out for them,) are we really so strong, that we can afford to turn away players, just because they didn't commit exclusively to hurling back when they were 17? I'm not sure if we are.

Realt Dearg Sec

ProudDUB wrote: »

Getting players to commit to one code earlier, may sound sensible on paper, but I'm not sure if it's workable in reality. The lure of glory with the footballers, is always going to remain huge for lads, who are at a very impressionable age. Forcing them to commit to one code even earlier, may have the effect of driving more lads towards the footballers & away from hurling, making the problem even worse.

If some of them decide to return to hurling later (as the football isn't working out for them,) are we really so strong, that we can afford to turn away players, just because they didn't commit exclusively to hurling back when they were 17? I'm not sure if we are.

How much worse could the problem be?

JRant

ProudDUB wrote: »

Getting players to commit to one code earlier, may sound sensible on paper, but I'm not sure if it's workable in reality. The lure of glory with the footballers, is always going to remain huge for lads, who are at a very impressionable age. Forcing them to commit to one code even earlier, may have the effect of driving more lads towards the footballers & away from hurling, making the problem even worse.

If some of them decide to return to hurling later (as the football isn't working out for them,) are we really so strong, that we can afford to turn away players, just because they didn't commit exclusively to hurling back when they were 17? I'm not sure if we are.

Some very valid points but there are 2 main problems that I see with the dual set up.
First, player burn out is a massive problem. Asking an 18-21 year old to play both codes at intercounty, club and college level is a nonsense in my opinion. Pick one, if it's not working out move across to the other but doing both should be stopped for player welfare reasons alone.

Second, it's extremely difficult to take a break from hurling for any considerable length of time and get back to playing at the top level. The calibre of opposition is such that you'll be left so far behind in terms of touch and speed of reflex that it's almost impossible to get back.

If the talented hurlers can be kept on the panel for a few more years they might start to make a difference. Also the younger guys can step up from 21's to senior much quicker in hurling than football.

ProudDUB

JRant wrote: »

Some very valid points but there are 2 main problems that I see with the dual set up.
First, player burn out is a massive problem. Asking an 18-21 year old to play both codes at intercounty, club and college level is a nonsense in my opinion. Pick one, if it's not working out move across to the other but doing both should be stopped for player welfare reasons alone.

Second, it's extremely difficult to take a break from hurling for any considerable length of time and get back to playing at the top level. The calibre of opposition is such that you'll be left so far behind in terms of touch and speed of reflex that it's almost impossible to get back.

If the talented hurlers can be kept on the panel for a few more years they might start to make a difference. Also the younger guys can step up from 21's to senior much quicker in hurling than football.

Am not advocating the dual system. I don't think its really workable in this day and age. My point is that if you force a lad to choose between the two codes and slam the door permanently shut to anyone who chooses football, you could be cutting of your nose to spite your face, as you are denying yourself players who could really make a difference down the road.

I agree that they would have some serious catching up to do, but Conal Keaney was able to do it. If they keep on hurling with their clubs, their skills will not diminish completely. If you take the likes of Ciaran Kilkenny, Diarmuid Connolly, Jack McCaffrey, CC, Rory....lads who did or do play both codes for their clubs (albeit not all the time and not always at the highest level) can you really tell me that they have nothing at all to offer the hurlers, if they (for some hypothetical reason) decided to leave the footballers and head for hurling?

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

How much worse could the problem be?

A lot worse if the next generation of Danny Sutcliffe's and Liam Rushes are all leaving for the football. At least when they were 17-18, the Dubs hadn't won Sam since Moses was a boy. It is a lot different now.

ProudDUB

Btw, any one know if the Dorset St ticket office will sell you juvenile tickets for the family section in Croker, if you aren't also buying adult tickets? Friend is already sorted for tickets for him & the family, but now wants to bring his two little nephews along. He's going into the ticket office (instead of going to a Supervalu) as he wants to try to get the tickets as close as possible to where his own seats are.

Dyr

ProudDUB wrote: »

ld really make a difference down the road.

I agree that they would have some serious catching up to do, but Conal Keaney was able to do it. If they keep on hurling with their clubs, their skills will not diminish completely. If you take the likes of Ciaran Kilkenny, Diarmuid Connolly, Jack McCaffrey, CC, Rory

Not saying if these lads decided to switch to senior hurling they shouldnt welcome them with open arms

the point being made is guys like O'Carroll and Kilkenny have a huge amount of time and resource put into them as part of the U21 hurling panel and there was zero return for it at senior level because they'll always pick the big ball if they can.

Those resources could be put into lads who are fully committed, at county level, to hurling only, so you actually get a return on that investment

Now, there is the argument that having marquee players like that in the setup will bring you success at U21 so they're worth it even if they don't progress to senior.

JRant

ProudDUB wrote: »

Am not advocating the dual system. I don't think its really workable in this day and age. My point is that if you force a lad to choose between the two codes and slam the door permanently shut to anyone who chooses football, you could be cutting of your nose to spite your face & denying yourself players who could really make a difference down the road.

I agree that they would have some serious catching up to do, but Conal Keaney was able to do it. If they keep on hurling with their clubs, their skills will not diminish completely. If you take the likes of Ciaran Kilkenny, Diarmuid Connolly, Jack McCaffrey, CC, Rory....lads who did or do play both codes for their clubs (albeit not all the time and not always at the highest level) can you really tell me that they have nothing at all to offer the hurlers, if they (for some hypothetical reason) decided to leave the footballers and head for hurling?



A lot worse if the next generation of Danny Sutcliffe's and Liam Rushes are all leaving for the football. At least when they were 17-18, the Dubs hadn't won Sam since Moses was a boy. It is a lot different now.

I don't think we should exclude them completely from either setup for making that decision at all. There does however come a time when a decision should be made though.

It's just not feasible to keep investing time and money in players if they just up and leave for football. For all those players you named there was somebody else denied a spot to learn and develop at the top level.

The standard is becoming so high now that the Keaney's of this world will be a thing of the past IMO. I just don't see how we can push on if we just keep developing these players and then lose them after the 21's.

Now how we could go about this I'm not sure about. It needs to be fair to everyone, not only those dual stars but the ones denied a spot in development squad, training camps and top level underage games.

JRant

Bambi wrote: »

Not saying if these lads decided to switch to senior hurling they shouldnt welcome them with open arms

the point being made is guys like O'Carroll and Kilkenny have a huge amount of time and resource put into them as part of the U21 hurling panel and there was zero return for it at senior level because they'll always pick the big ball if they can.

Those resources could be put into lads who are fully committed, at county level, to hurling only, so you actually get a return on that investment

Now, there is the argument that having marquee players like that in the setup will bring you success at U21 so they're worth it even if they don't progress to senior.

Personally I don't think it's worth it if I'm being completely honest.

WRT the 2 lads named there was zero point in having them in the hurling panel as they were only ever going to go with the football. It's not like you're denying them anything as they were both heavily involved with the U21 footballers and had success there.

The Co. Board needs to get real on this issue. Other counties are grooming players from a younger age to solely play hurling. If we are serious about making the step up then the same almost ruthless mentality needs to be brought in. The talent will come through if we target it properly but trying to be all things to all players is doing us no favours. It may seem harsh but that's the way it's going.

ProudDUB

It is an amateur sport. There are no professional contracts that obligate you to play for one team and prevent you playing for another. So I have no idea how you enforce a system whereby players have to choose one code at age 17/18 and there is no going back, if they change their minds 5 or 10 years later.

I agree having a player jump ship is disheartening for everyone who has worked so hard to get him up to the level of inter county. But the reality is that the lure of glory with the footballers is always going to be there. We're not like other dual counties such as Tipp, or Galway or Cork where the hurlers are the "sexy" brand and will always draw the biggest share of the better players from the pool of available talent. Our situation is rather unique.

If the footballers keep on hoovering up the best talent, cutting off all access to them when the ones who don't make it, start to think about going back to the hurling, you are cutting yourself off from some of the best athletes in the county. Our hurlers are not so successful, that they can afford to do that imo.

JRant

ProudDUB wrote: »

It is an amateur sport. There are no professional contracts that obligate you to play for one team and prevent you playing for another. So I have no idea how you enforce a system whereby players have to choose one code at age 17/18 and there is no going back, if they change their minds 5 or 10 years later.

I agree having a player jump ship is disheartening for everyone who has worked so hard to get him up to the level of inter county. But the reality is that the lure of glory with the footballers is always going to be there. We're not like other dual counties such as Tipp, or Galway or Cork where the hurlers are the "sexy" brand and will always draw the biggest share of the better players from the pool of available talent. Our situation is rather unique.

If the footballers keep on hoovering up the best talent, cutting off all access to them when the ones who don't make it, start to think about going back to the hurling, you are cutting yourself off from some of the best athletes in the county. Our hurlers are not so successful, that they can afford to do that imo.

I don't think we should cut anyone off for choosing one over the other at all and it would be wrong to do so. What we can't do is keep sinking resources into them at U21 level and inevitably lose them to football.

We all had to make tough decisions at 18 be it selecting college courses or career path. This is nothing new but they can't have their cake and eat it as well. Of course football is the bigger draw but there are plenty of young lads out there living/breathing hurling who may be overlooked just to have a marquee player on the team who has absolutely no intention of sticking with it. That's not right either.

ProudDUB

Yeah, but how to do you enforce any sort of long term commitment to just one code? If you decide to go to one college at 18, the CAO make it very difficult for you if you change your mind later on. You can't really compare the university admissions process to the GAA.

Dyr

ProudDUB wrote: »

It is an amateur sport. There are no professional contracts that obligate you to play for one team and prevent you playing for another. So I have no idea how you enforce a system whereby players have to choose one code at age 17/18 and there is no going back, if they change their minds 5 or 10 years later.

you keep bringing up this change your minds years later thing but it's not whats being put forward at all. Bottom line would be you're not playing both codes at U21, you can change your mind and switch codes if you want but ain't you doing both at once .

Its not that hard to put in place, you don't have to force anyone to do anything, you just make it clear that anyone who's on the county U21 football panel will not be selected for the hurling panel.

TBH I've heard that this is already happening with the footballers at that level.

ProudDUB

By change your mind, I mean a player leaving the footballers, as he is not getting game time/falls out with the manager etc etc and goes back to the hurlers. The discussion first came up, when someone proposed a system whereby the ability to do that was taken away from lads at age 17/18. They have to choose the one code then and, they have to stick with it. I just don't see how that is enforceable.

JRant

ProudDUB wrote: »

By change your mind, I mean a player leaving the footballers, as he is not getting game time/falls out with the manager etc etc and goes back to the hurlers. The discussion first came up, when someone proposed a system whereby the ability to do that was taken away from lads at age 17/18. They have to choose the one code then and, they have to stick with it. I just don't see how that is enforceable.

Again, I don't see how they would be excluded. If they're on the U21 football panel then they really shouldn't be on the hurling panel as well. That's not excluding them, it's giving them a choice, big difference.

Realistically how many players ever make the switch back anyway?

Stoner

JRant wrote:

Realistically how many players ever make the switch back anyway?

Shane Ryan, Keaney both when football wasn't going well stand out, and it was also a successful time relatively speaking for the hurlers. I can't see many going back now, maybe kilkenny if he's let.