So many non-native conifers trees planted.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

But what actually eats the cones and pine needles of the Spruce
I actually make "tea" from Sikta spruce needles myself occasionally
quite tasty. like a weak vitamin c drink.

There are many insects that feed on the needles. The more specialised that come to mind are:
Pine Shoot Moth larvae burrow into the needles and feed inside developing buds.
Green Spruce Aphid, Sawflies and Pine Weevils all feed on Spruce needles.
All these provide food for birds.

Bacteria and fungi also feed on the detris.

Red Squirrel, Wood Mouse and Crossbil certainly feed on the cones. So would Woodpecker, if we ever see their returnreturn.

These are just the ones that pop to mind.

vistafinder

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Nature finds a way ...

16,000 trees in Gougane Barra Cork are to be cut down mostly Japanese larch
a fungus is killing them, its in twenty other coillte forest as well, JPL represents
2% of all Coillte trees. The area is to be replanted with a range of different tree species, including species such as Scots pine and oak.


I spend a lot of time there its a shame to see the place being knocked down. All them beautiful trees.
How are they going to stop the fungus spreading to the new plantation?

It used to be covered one time in a forest of large oak,birch,alder,ash,holly and great yews and lots of red deer. Now is a chance to try to get it back to what it once was but I dont think Coillte will be the ones to do it.

I have been going back there with 25 years and as long as I can remember there has been dead trees there on the higher slopes. I wonder was this because of the fungus?

Capercaille

vistafinder wrote: »

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

Nature finds a way ...

16,000 trees in Gougane Barra Cork are to be cut down mostly Japanese larch
a fungus is killing them, its in twenty other coillte forest as well, JPL represents
2% of all Coillte trees. The area is to be replanted with a range of different tree species, including species such as Scots pine and oak.


I spend a lot of time there its a shame to see the place being knocked down. All them beautiful trees.
How are they going to stop the fungus spreading to the new plantation?

It used to be covered one time in a forest of large oak,birch,alder,ash,holly and great yews and lots of red deer. Now is a chance to try to get it back to what it once was but I dont think Coillte will be the ones to do it.

I have been going back there with 25 years and as long as I can remember there has been dead trees there on the higher slopes. I wonder was this because of the fungus?

Unfortunately Coillte are more interested in profit than native tree cultivation.

Cork boy 55

Series 12 of Ecoeye on RTE was about native forests tonight

"How old are Irelands ancient forests and woodlands? What are bio-diversity corridors?? "


Eco Eye Woodlands episode available to view online now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0NDkdARVNo

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

What that programme failed to give emphasis to was that oaks etc planted in the 18th century were planted as a cash crop just like Coilte today! Not a lot has changed in our attitudes to the flora of the country really.

Cork boy 55

Its a great Idea in theory, the Native woodlands corridors along all the rivers
With benefits for
flooding preventative/mitigation,
fishing
bio diversty,
soil erosion
river health
and providing corridors linking fragmented Native woodlands.

Also the impact on any one individual farmer should be small.
and they should gain benefits for the loss of some land.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Trees along rivers will not be popular with anglers.:)

Capercaille

Scarlet Chilly Type wrote: »

Trees along rivers will not be popular with anglers.:)

Why?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Capercaille wrote: »

Why?

Leaves access for fly fishing very difficult.

Cork boy 55

Scarlet Chilly Type wrote: »

Trees along rivers will not be popular with anglers.:)

Scarlet Chilly Type wrote: »

Leaves access for fly fishing very difficult.

The ecoeye show pointed out the advantages to fishing
of covering the banks with woodlands
-Less soil/bank erosion
-less silt in river
-more vegetation more insects more fish

The disadvantages of less access could be mitigated by design and planning somewhat.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

The ecoeye show pointed out the advantages to fishing
of covering the banks with woodlands
-Less soil/bank erosion
-less silt in river
-more vegetation more insects more fish

The disadvantages of less access could be mitigated by design and planning somewhat.

Tell that to the clubs already under pressure to keep banks clear. Anglers understand the dubbed for cover etc but there is a limit and further blocking access would be a step too far. You need to be able to work along a bank and not just access it from place to place.

Anyway, a moot point as it's not going to happen.

robp

Scarlet Chilly Type wrote: »

Tell that to the clubs already under pressure to keep banks clear. Anglers understand the dubbed for cover etc but there is a limit and further blocking access would be a step too far. You need to be able to work along a bank and not just access it from place to place.

Anyway, a moot point as it's not going to happen.

I think many, if not most anglers are going to welcome any move that encourages fish populations. Trees on banks are so common anyway. This would just mean broadening this strip and perhaps leading to a lighter canopy. Its already happening, yes at a very modest scale but there are many sites with the scheme around the country.


I really enjoyed the programme. It would have been more been convincing to the typical farmer if they focused on wood production instead of eco benefits imo. My only criticism is their statement that our ancestors lived in harmony with native woodlands. I think that is quite clearly not the case. We have evidence of the extinction of woodland species on this island for thousands of years. Embracing this, makes the argument for native woodlands even more compelling.

Cork boy 55

Coillte does not make that much profit does it ?
A profit of just 40 million(2007) With just 15% of its estate manged for bio-diversty
as main objective in theory And it owns 7% of Irish land.
I mean for planting so many Sitka spruce tress and others the return
is not much is it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coillte

---

Whats the economic argument for planting plantations with all these non-native sitka spruce and larches and others

All things being equal (I know there's all sorts of other factors Soil types and so on)

I mean whats the Profit margin/yield or whatever If you where to plant

Sitka Spruce
Scot pines
Oak
Most profitable Broadleaf tree.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I would suggest asking those questions in the farming and forestry forum perhaps. I look at nature but I rarely try to put a price on my surroundings at the time.

magicbastarder

in this case, the money is important if it is being used to justify a continued major forestry industry which does nothing for biodiversity.

Cork boy 55

What are people seeing in terms of damage to trees around countryside?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Very little damage in the north Leinster area.

Ichabod Crane

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

What are people seeing in terms of damage to trees around countryside?

A couple of casualties here in the east-midlands.Funny enough,I've just posted a pic of a fallen tree in the 'Random Photos' thread of the Photography Forum(see below).The root ball is absolutely massive!

vistafinder

Lots of damage around here in the south west huge trees down everywhere and whats very worring is people coming on local radio stations wanting all trees cleared from the sides of the roads.

Impossible I would think but this is Ireland and can you imagine how our country would look if that happened.

Cork boy 55

I was in a big forest in Tipperary today 99.9% of it was fine the odd tree or cluster here and there but when i went up to the back of it on the higher ground there was 2-3 hectares of mature spruce flattened, at the center the trees where snapped in two and around them the rest of the trees had fallen this is the pattern that a air-burst meteorite or bomb would cause( i believe). and a few hundred meters away the trees where perfect. Strange how the wind rolls
Also saw no deer about and this forest I ALWAYS see many Fallow deer in it every time I go there.

Also in a forest in Cork which has a fast flowing river running through it
99% of trees look OK(mostly broadleaf forest)
The ones that fell are the ones that where on the river bank or in marshy areas
I guess the fast flooding river and all the rain softened their roots
also the only real tall trees all either fell or last a lot of branches or where bent
most of the tall ones some kind of larch not sure which.
I imagine the heavy persistent rainfall and multiple storms trains
weakened many trees root systems especially those in wet areas
and then storm Darwin came in and finished them off.

Desmo

Scarlet Chilly Type wrote: »

What that programme failed to give emphasis to was that oaks etc planted in the 18th century were planted as a cash crop just like Coilte today! Not a lot has changed in our attitudes to the flora of the country really.

Sorry if this is a bit late but you are right about this. Most of the oakwoods that are left are not remotely ancient and are just 200 years old or so. They are better than nothing and certainly need protection. There are some possibly ancient nooks and crannies but they are tiny.

fergus1001

Forester checking in

1 they are private plantations so maximising profits is a priority to the owner (pension funds so a farmer will plant Sitka spruce at a 30 year rotation)

2 the laws have changed so now you have to have 15% biodiversity area and 10% broadleaf in any plantation

3 other than adhering to point 2 its the land owner who decides what he plants

Cork boy 55

fergus1001 wrote: »

Forester checking in

1 they are private plantations so maximising profits is a priority to the owner (pension funds so a farmer will plant Sitka spruce at a 30 year rotation)

2 the laws have changed so now you have to have 15% biodiversity area and 10% broadleaf in any plantation

3 other than adhering to point 2 its the land owner who decides what he plants

thanks

Whats the "profit margin" or yield for the foreign conifers
as opposed to native broadleaf or scots pine all other things being equal?

i.e. if you plant a 10 acres with the best most valuable native tree and another 10 with a foreign conifer what would be the difference in profit/money made?

If foreign conifers where banned or severely restricted what impact would this have on plantation industry? (theory)

Whats so special about sitka spruce 50% of trees in Ireland?

gctest50

vistafinder wrote: »

Lots of damage around here in the south west huge trees down everywhere and whats very worring is people coming on local radio stations wanting all trees cleared from the sides of the roads.

Impossible I would think but this is Ireland and can you imagine how our country would look if that happened.

Imagine how many roads would just sink if you did that - amazing how squishy some little roads are under a heavy truck

fergus1001

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

thanks

Whats the "profit margin" or yield for the foreign conifers
as opposed to native broadleaf or scots pine all other things being equal?

i.e. if you plant a 10 acres with the best most valuable native tree and another 10 with a foreign conifer what would be the difference in profit/money made?

If foreign conifers where banned or severely restricted what impact would this have on plantation industry? (theory)

Whats so special about sitka spruce 50% of trees in Ireland?

Well Scots pine (native conifer) yields at 16-18 cubic metres/year/hectare where as Sitka spruce yields 22-30 cubic metres/year/hectare does that clear up why its favoured ?

In terms of your 10 acres example above should be good enough as well

If foreign species were banned the forestry industry would nose dive in about 30 years from when they were banned (rotation length of Sitka spruce) and the Irish economy would be out of pocket by 2 billion and some change

magicbastarder

oliver rackham called into question the viability of softwood plantations, that (he suspects) there doesn't seem to be good record keeping of the full costs of planting, maintaining and harvesting the likes of sitka spruce.

is the 2 billion you mention turnover or profit?

fergus1001

magicbastarder wrote: »

oliver rackham called into question the viability of softwood plantations, that (he suspects) there doesn't seem to be good record keeping of the full costs of planting, maintaining and harvesting the likes of sitka spruce.

is the 2 billion you mention turnover or profit?

That's profit not taking into account the jobs ect that it provides

Alun

fergus1001 wrote: »

Well Scots pine (native conifer) yields at 16-18 cubic metres/year/hectare where as Sitka spruce yields 22-30 cubic metres/year/hectare does that clear up why its favoured ?

How would the yields shape up money-wise though? Would pine not be more valuable as a crop than sitka spruce?

fergus1001

Alun wrote: »

How would the yields shape up money-wise though? Would pine not be more valuable as a crop than sitka spruce?

The rotation is about 50 years for Scots pine with less yield and you are getting duck all extra for it

Believe me if there was money in it, we would be planting it

I have done biodiversity management and ecology as part of my degree so don't look at me as a ''in for the money guy''

Sitka spruce though it is an alien species does provide a habitat for Lichens and microfungal growth in its early years and when its opened up the biodiversity of these areas greatly increases


Bio-diversity in plantation forestry:

"Herb layer
On the forest floor, the understory is usually light starved with a plant community limited to those species capable of tolerating such conditions. Grass species will form a thin mat if light availability is sufficient. Mosses will, otherwise, dominate and often cover the majority of the forest floor surface area in addition to the surfaces of deadwood and tree trunks. Although under the canopy of tree cover, the habitat is maintained in a moist condition by rivulets
running down along tree trunks and falling from needles and leaved. Mosses and Lichens will not only establish themselves on the ground substrate, but also up on the trees themselves in an attempt to obtain the light energy necessary for photosynthesis.
Shady, damp forests also provide a suitable habitat for a diversity of fungal species. Bracket fungi such as Ganoderma grow feed on wood, either on dead branches or stumps, or the heartwood of living trees.

Plantation forestry may contain plant species residual of the communities occurring in that location prior to planting. As much afforestation takes place on bogs and upland habitats which were poorly drained species such as the Sphagnum moss Sphagnum cuspidatum, Bell Heather (Erica cinerea), Ling Heather (Calluna vulgaris), and Autumn Gorse (Ulex galii) for example, can still occur, although not in optimal conditions. Over time, these species disappear and mixed grass-heath will develop.

Edge habitat is afforded a greater availability of light that the inner forest zones and a greater diversity of plant species will grow. Brambles (Rubus fruticosus agg. ), Gorse (Ulex europaeus ) and Bracken Fern (Pteridum aquilinum) commonly occur, with attendant mosaic community structures and patchy species domination. These scrub species can also occur within the tree stand where a clearing due to tree-loss creates suitable conditions.

Fauna
Insectivorous birds such as Swallows and swifts will visit forestry plantations if there are suitable nesting sites nearby. Passerine song birds are common everywhere but populations increase with afforestation.

Afforestation creates a new nesting habitat for carrion and hooded crows and increased cover for foxes, but they reiy large!y on the ground outside the forest for food and will perforce concentrate their search over the adjoining bogland. Forest plantations can also provide cover and seclusion for deer, but again, they depend on the moors and heathlands outside the plantation for grazing.

Whilst bare clearfell is not normally considered a bountiful wildlife habitat, cleared and replanted land is ideal for feeding and nesting of the rare Summer Visitor, the Nightjar (Caprimulgus europaeus)
As the crop is not quite developed, there is still the opportunity to ascertain the previous dominant vegetation on the site. These include grasses, rush, furze, briar, molinia, calluna and mixed scrub.
The fauna present typically includes song thrush, blackbird, robin, wrens and many other bird
species. Although none have been spotted it would be reasonable to suggest that the presence of foxes, rabbits, hares and badgers may also be present.''

magicbastarder

fergus1001 wrote: »

That's profit not taking into account the jobs ect that it provides

http://www.coillte.ie/aboutcoillte/news/article/view/coillte-reports-operating-profit-before-exceptional-items-of-EUR35m-for-2012/

where is the other €1.965bn coming from if the largest player in the market by far only pulled in €35m in 2012?
plus, their turnover is about a quarter of a billion. what time frame were you talking about when you mentioned the €2bn?

it seems to me that making a profit of €35m out of 10% of the surface area of the country is not exactly value for money for the taxpayer.
they've nearly half a million hectares planted, according to wikipedia - so that's a profit of maybe €70 per hectare per year.