So many non-native conifers trees planted.

Cork boy 55

:mad:

I am sure this has been discussed in this forum before but I cannot find a thread on it

Is it not a shame that over so many decades so much of countryside was been planted with alien non-native conifers Trees

Irelands Natural Vegetation is "broadleaf deciduous woodland"

The advantages of Native species in terms of bio diversity, Beauty and foraging are overlooked in terms of pure greed.

The countryside is now covered in Pine plantation "deserts"

planting data for Coillte for Cork for example
(and its not just Coillte of course)

Species Net Area (ha)
Sitka spruce 32633
Norway spruce 746
Lodgepole pine 4469
Douglas fir 1028
Larches 2017
Scots pine 352
Other conifers 707
Broadleaf 1776
Total 43728



Planting Year Net Area (ha)
Pre 1920 153
1920 to 29 39
1930 to 39 116
1940 to 49 319
1950 to 59 2148
1960 to 69 7488
1970 to 79 8516
1980 to 89 7020
1990 to 99 12276
2000 to 08 5654
Total 43729

http://www.coillte.ie/coillteforest/forest_facts/forest_facts_by_county/

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Yes it is a shame but you must remember that these were planted as a commercial crop. In some ways not much different than planting acres of grains not native to Ireland every year - well not quite but you know what I mean.

Cork boy 55

Scarlet Chilly Type wrote: »

Yes it is a shame but you must remember that these were planted as a commercial crop. In some ways not much different than planting acres of grains not native to Ireland every year - well not quite but you know what I mean.

Its the sheer ratio of Pine plantation to broad leaf and scots pine that's staggering

Only 5% of trees on Collite land in Cork are broad leaf or scots pine (only native conifer I think)

These trees can be grown commercial as well they could even harvest their nuts and fruits.



There must be some sort of proper balance

I am aware that Coillte today is a very different beast to what went before
in terms of tree planting at least in some of its recreation sites and forest parks it makes an effort to plant more broadleaf not sure about their commercial plantations.

Capercaille

Coillte care for profit only. At the moment virtually all new plantations are non-native muck.

axe2grind

No more a desert than the huge expanses of perennial rye grass flanked by tightly trimmed hedges, or the thousands of acres of garden lawns, with vast quantities of precious resources burnt to keep grass short and where the merest hint of a daisy or dandelion brings out the weedkiller.

Agree, would love to have more broadleaf

snowstreams

Is it true that in the distant past, maybe 5 thousand years ago Ireland had a lot more Pine mixed in with broad leaved trees?
I heard that deciduous trees regrow from a stump when cut down, but pine trees dont. And as a result of humans cutting down trees over time we lost all our pine trees as the deciduous trees had a head start to regrow after any clearing.
I dont know what species of pine that we had. It may well have only been scots pine.

magicbastarder

Capercaille wrote: »

Coillte care for profit only.

in rackham's 'woodlands', he calls into question the notion of profit when it comes to commercial forestry as practiced in britain and ireland. it can take 40 years for a crop to reach maturity, and quite often records are lost, not enough attention is paid to inflation, etc., so sight is lost of how much the crop has actually cost to plant and maintain.
it's an easy decision if you've a crop five years from maturity, with a fairly predictable cost for maintenance and harvesting vs. crop value.
but it's only in a steady state situation where as much land is being harvested as is being planted, no land is being sold, etc., where you could make an educated guess as to how profitable it is. and i understand we are not in a steady state.

ted1

my understanding is that there their is currently a program to replace pine with broad leaf particular along water sources as pines needles don't break down and hence don't filter the water resulting in poor quality

fits

By 'pine' you mean 'spruce' right?

Scots pine is a lovely tree and lodgepole pine or other pines aren't that widespread.

Sitka spruce is the one most object to.

magicbastarder

scots pine is a native tree (with caveats) so there is generally little objection to that.

robp

Normally I would be deeply cynical of the Fianna Fail party but I have to say I was delighted to see that lately they are pushing a native tree agenda in their forestry policy published in September.

Coillte needs immediate reform and development – Ó Cuív
Posted on 26/09/13 by Éamon Ó Cuiv

Fianna Fáil Spokesperson on Agriculture, Éamon Ó Cuív TD, says the state forestry company, Coillte, needs to be reformed and developed so it is able to meet its full potential which would lead to enhanced afforestation in this country.

Deputy Ó Cuív added that there needs to be a major planting drive undertaken in this country by the public and private sectors.

“Forestry and its development are extremely important for rural development in Ireland,” said Deputy Ó Cuív.

“A successful and thriving Coillte is of extreme importance to the future of the forestry sector and it should remain as a separate state owned commercial company.

“The development of rural recreation, for example, would help guarantee the sustainable future of Coillte.

“Fianna Fáil is calling for increased net afforestation efforts throughout Ireland. An afforestation target of 20,000 hectares per annum should be implemented between 2014 and 2020, which would bring Ireland’s percentage of forest cover closer to the EU average. This would be funded through Coillte profits and a capital investment programme in order to guarantee supply and profit in the future.

Agriculture lands held by NAMA should be considered for afforestation where the property is no longer commercially viable.

“Fianna Fáil is also calling for a huge planting drive which should entail a mix between commercial conifer and broadleaf trees with at least 50% of new planting to be native Irish trees such as Alder and Oak trees.

“Coillte should also initiate an ‘Adopt a Tree’ campaign where individuals or groups can sponsor the planting of a tree. This would be similar to the previous Millennium forest project.

“If the Government is proactive in promoting a more sustainable Coillte there is enormous potential for growth and more importantly rural job creation.”

http://www.fiannafail.ie/news/entry/coillte-needs-immediate-reform-and-development-o-cuiv/

magicbastarder

how much demand is there for alder wood?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

magicbastarder wrote: »

how much demand is there for alder wood?

Some alder is used for veneers and smoking but it snaps too easily to be of any use in major furniture or building industries. It is not popular lumber.

Personally I find alder grows like a weed. Breaks easily, smells badly and is not an attractive tree. Neither have I found it great for native birds or insects.
It would not be my choice for a planting program. Then again Mr O'Cuiv is no expert on agriculture or trees either.

Capercaille

Scarlet Chilly Type wrote: »

Some alder is used for veneers and smoking but it snaps too easily to be of any use in major furniture or building industries. It is not popular lumber.

Personally I find alder grows like a weed. Breaks easily, smells badly and is not an attractive tree. Neither have I found it great for native birds or insects.
It would not be my choice for a planting program. Then again Mr O'Cuiv is no expert on agriculture or trees either.

Alder is a great tree for wet ground conditions. It also grows great in exposed conditions along the coast I believe.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Capercaille wrote: »

Alder is a great tree for wet ground conditions. It also grows great in exposed conditions along the coast I believe.

Oh , I agree fully but I thought the question was about commercial value. It will certainly grow in poor conditions but, in my view, has little commercial or wildlife value.

IS_a_Class

The true commercial value of forestry may well be in tourism.

Now there is a need for the trees to be quick to grow to mature but also survive in harsh conditions, especially boggy soil. Alder would seem to fit the bill quite well.

What I would love to see is the closing down of unprofitable farms, which can only exist because of subsidies in the first place, in the real boggy areas which would then be amalgamated with existing coillte land and upland areas to form super-national parks which would then have modest licence fees for fishing, hunting, and camping. A network of B&B's and guesthouses could encircle these superparks. The sheep that would have previously have roamed the land could be left to their own devices, and would eventually become wild, and used as hunting prey, with a fee per kilo of game hunted to be collected by park rangers.

The Inagh Valley, for example would be perfect for such a scheme.

axe2grind

Scarlet Chilly Type wrote: »

Oh , I agree fully but I thought the question was about commercial value. It will certainly grow in poor conditions but, in my view, has little commercial or wildlife value.

re, Alder
I don't share your view of little wildlife value.
sure it doesn't compare to the likes of Oak, Willow or Birch, but its up there with the best of the rest in my view

See this table as an indication.

Prodigal Son

@robp - good find on the FF policy, which mostly looks good

But are they for real on the sponsor a tree scheme ? They want taxpayers to pay for what Coillte are already massively subsidised for ? And to copy the millennium tree scheme, which AIB poured millions into, even though Coillte already owned all the land ?

I fear they'd want a new forestry policy on the cheap

@axe2grind - agree with you on Alder - mine are full of small birds in the winter, feeding on the seeds. Alder also fixes nitrogen in its roots, restoring leached soils for succession of other trees

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I'll bow to the experience of others on Alder and wildlife, as I have never done any study of the value here. I just based by observation on the results I see in a local (admittedly small) copse of Alder where things are so much quieter than in my oak, birch and hazel woods. It's something I must do a little project on in 2014.

Cork boy 55

National Forest Inventory survey is out.

Irish total forest area stands at 10.5% of total land area, an increase of 0.5% since 2006, according to Ireland’s second National Forest Inventory (NFI).

The NFI booklet showed that Co Cork has the highest share of national forest area at 83,619 ha or 11.6% of the total forest estate.

Counties with the highest proportion of national forest area are primarily distributed along the western and south-western seaboards. In terms of forest cover as a proportion of the total county land area, Co Wicklow has the highest cover at 17.7%.

In terms of forest ownership the share of private forestry is increasing with 53% in public ownership and 47% in private ownership; this represents an increase in the private forestry estate of 4% in the last six years.

Conifer forest is the dominant forest type representing 74.2% of all forests. Broadleaved forests represent 25.8%. The main tree species is Sitka spruce occupying 334,560 ha or 52.5% of all species.
So the Cork Coillte figures I showed in OP are out of whack with average when national data and private data is taken into account


Fewer than 30% of Ireland’s forests are single species forests. Over half (56%) of the national forest estate is less than 20 years old due to State-supported afforestation.

The results of the Inventory show that:

The total forest area in Ireland now stands at 10.5% of the total land area; an increase of 0.5% since 2006. Co. Cork has the highest share of national forest area at 83,619 ha or 11.6% of the total forest estate. Counties with the highest proportion of national forest area are primarily distributed along the western and south-western seaboards. In terms of forest cover as a proportion of the total county land area, Co. Wicklow has the highest forest cover at 17.7%.
In terms of forest ownership the share of private forestry is increasing with 53% in public ownership and 47% in private ownership; this represents an increase in the private forestry estate of 4% in the last six years.
Conifer forest is the dominant forest type representing 74.2% of all forests. Broadleaved forests represent 25.8%. The main tree species is Sitka spruce occupying 334,560 ha or 52.5% of all species. Less than 30% of Ireland’s forests are single species forests.
Over half (56%) of the national forest estate is less than twenty years old, due to the successful uptake of State supported afforestation in the intervening years
The total standing growing stock of Irish forests is estimated to be over 97 million m³, an increase of over 25 million m³ since 2006. Ireland experiences a very favourable climate for tree growth, as shown by our forests average annual volume increment of 11.5 m³/ha/year.
The balance between increment and fellings is an important indicator of Sustainable Forest Management (SFM) in a country as it describes the sustainability of wood production over time, the current availability of wood and the potential for the future. Nearly half (47%) of the gross annual increment was harvested between 2006 and 2012 – which shows sustainable harvesting levels in Ireland’s forests.
Over half (51%) of the forest area had one or more environmental designation, compared to 43% in the 2006 NFI results.

press
http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/press/pressreleases/2013/december/title,73078,en.html
report
http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/nfi/nfisecondcycle2012/nationalforestinventoryresultsdata2012/
press
http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2013/1220/features/inventory-shows-cork-has-highest-share-of-national-forest-area-253202.html

Prodigal Son

@Srameen - I would be very interested in any study you undertake - as the rest of our observations are casual.

I have a few Alders of about 10m height - mixed with Oak, Hazel, Hawthorn, Blackthorn, Ash & Elder. They are always full of small birds, but I have also noticed that beetles seem to prefer the old dead stumps of Alder above the other trees. I mentioned this to a guy in the Woodland Trust and he said he had also noticed that Rhinocerus beetles seemed to prefer dead Alder.

There's so much we can still learn - even here in Ireland !

Chisler2

Prodigal Son wrote: »

@Srameen - I would be very interested in any study you undertake - as the rest of our observations are casual.

I have a few Alders of about 10m height - mixed with Oak, Hazel, Hawthorn, Blackthorn, Ash & Elder. They are always full of small birds, but I have also noticed that beetles seem to prefer the old dead stumps of Alder above the other trees. I mentioned this to a guy in the Woodland Trust and he said he had also noticed that Rhinocerus beetles seemed to prefer dead Alder.

There's so much we can still learn - even here in Ireland !

Yes! Numbers of European beetles are declining, including the stag beetle (Lucanus cervus) whose larvae spend up to seven years munching through decaying wood of deciduous trees. In 2008 there was a publicity campaign in the UK (where I was living at the time) encouraging people to sink a bucket of wood-chips from deciduous trees in their gardens...........or alternatively, to "not tidy up the garden so much" to raise consciousness about the loss of natural habitat for hundreds of endangered species which depend on mixed deciduous woodland. Coniferous plantations do not support biodiversity.

Cork boy 55

IS_a_Class wrote: »

The true commercial value of forestry may well be in tourism.

Now there is a need for the trees to be quick to grow to mature but also survive in harsh conditions, especially boggy soil. Alder would seem to fit the bill quite well.

What I would love to see is the closing down of unprofitable farms, which can only exist because of subsidies in the first place, in the real boggy areas which would then be amalgamated with existing coillte land and upland areas to form super-national parks which would then have modest licence fees for fishing, hunting, and camping. A network of B&B's and guesthouses could encircle these superparks. The sheep that would have previously have roamed the land could be left to their own devices, and would eventually become wild, and used as hunting prey, with a fee per kilo of game hunted to be collected by park rangers.

The Inagh Valley, for example would be perfect for such a scheme.

Have you heard of the Ballycroy national Park /Nephin Beg wilderness project
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=83689070
http://www.coillte.ie/aboutcoillte/news/article/view/irelands-first-wilderness-project-launched/

Certainly more room for expanding some of the national and forest parks, also making new ones
5/6 National parks are on west coast and one in Wicklow
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Parks_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland
They should make a new one somewhere in the center mass of country I was thinking Galtee mountains Imagine the Glengarra Millennium native forest project(X1000) extended All the way around the range in a a huge ring , Would be a major attraction with the forest and hillwalking
and easy accessible from all over the place.

Cork boy 55

What wildlife use the sitka spruce seeing as they are 52% of all Irish trees in forestry areas?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Cork boy 55 wrote: »

What wildlife use the sitka spruce seeing as they are 52% of all Irish trees in forestry areas?

From a UK forestry report.

[
Wildlife value

Recent research has shown that forestry plantations of Sitka spruce in the UK provide suitable habitat for a wide range of wildlife.

Sitka spruce stands have been found to support the same amount of species as native stands; but they provide different habitats and attract different species groups.

The moist, sheltered microclimate found in spruce forest provides ideal conditions for hundreds of species of fungi and bryophyte; some very rare and threatened. Numerous invertebrate species also thrive in spruce forests, especially ground beetles.

In general, plantations can be beneficial for many butterflies and moths. During the establishment phase, when ground flora is rich, they provide habitat for butterflies such as pearl bordered fritillary and the grizzled skipper. They also provide a refuge for red squirrel.

The thicket stage of a young plantation is also known to provide excellent habitat for the white admiral butterfly and many birds such as the lesser whitethroat, lesser redpoll, yellowhammer, linnet and tree pipit. Large open areas of clear fell can be crucial in supporting local populations of nightjar and woodlark.

Many new moth species have colonised the UK due to the presence of non-native tree species; some with extremely restricted distributions.

An Irish government report stated -

Non Timber Benefits Sitka spruce grows well in Ireland because it is suited to our soils and climate. As proof of its ‘ecological fit’ the species flowers, produces seed and is able to regenerate naturally. The species has thus adapted to the Irish environment rapidly and many native animals, insects and birds now inhabit Sitka spruce woodlands. As one of our fastest growing tree species, Sitka spruce has an important role to play in Carbon Sequestration. This is the process by which Carbon Dioxide in the atmosphere, a contributor to global warming, is ‘fixed’ by trees and stored in the timber and foliage. Over a rotation Sitka spruce can fix over 200 tonnes of Carbon per hectare.

Chisler2

Must confess to being completely confused about the biodiversity of, and ecological benefits from, conifers, particularly Sitka. Recall concerns expressed by farmers in Donegal two decades ago that Sitka was a 'greedy' tree and 'leached the soil' .

Prodigal Son

You only have to walk through a Sitka plantation versus a broadleaved woodland to see the difference - forest industry reports will always find a way to report "biodiversity" in commercial forests

Chisler2

Prodigal Son wrote: »

You only have to walk through a Sitka plantation versus a broadleaved woodland to see the difference - forest industry reports will always find a way to report "biodiversity" in commercial forests

I have walked many woodlands and have never been impressed by any profusion of birds, beasts or bugs amongst conifers!!

This looks reasonably uncoerced and scientifically-based:- http://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/forestry/environmentalinformation/futmon/CofordConnectFeatureonFutMon.pdf as a source of data?

magicbastarder

i would imagine density of planting would also have a huge effect on biodiversity - it may be easy to claim that sitka spruce plantations support wildlife if the trees are thinly planted.

Cork boy 55

Scarlet Chilly Type wrote: »

From a UK forestry report.



An Irish government report stated -

But what actually eats the cones and pine needles of the Spruce
I actually make "tea" from Sikta spruce needles myself occasionally
quite tasty. like a weak vitamin c drink.

Cork boy 55

Nature finds a way ...

16,000 trees in Gougane Barra Cork are to be cut down mostly Japanese larch
a fungus is killing them, its in twenty other coillte forest as well, JPL represents
2% of all Coillte trees. The area is to be replanted with a range of different tree species, including species such as Scots pine and oak.


WHy is Japanese Larch even planted in Ireland anyway in such numbers?
Why was a Small Beauty/tourist spot like Gougane Barra planted with non-native trees to begin with?

I think Gougane Barra already quite beautiful will look even better
replanted with Native species + much more wildlife in it.

Coillte has confirmed it is to close Gougane Barra Forest Park in Co Cork for six months to allow for a major tree-felling operation after the discovery of a tree fungus attack.
According to Coillte forestry productivity manager Padraig Ó Tuama, an outbreak of the fungus phytophthora ramorum has been discovered in the popular forest park near Ballingeary.
Mr Ó Tuama said Coillte had taken the decision to fell about 16,000 trees – primarily Japanese larch – in Gougane Barra to prevent the spread of the disease. “Phytophthora ramorum is a fungus-like disease that can affect a range of trees and other plant species, with Japanese larch particularly susceptible,” he said.
“Coillte have been working closely with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine to detect and prevent the spread of this disease. Regrettably, Gougane Barra is one of 20 Coillte forests where the disease has been confirmed in Japanese larch since first detected on the species in 2010.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/cork-s-gougane-barra-forest-park-closing-due-to-tree-fungus-1.1643902


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