Should Irish remain a compulsory Leaving Cert subject?

Foxhound38

Is it a living language and an aspect of our cultural heritage too important to be optional in our nation's schools, or is it a largely dead language kept on life support artificially? Does the compulsory nature of it breed more resentment than respect? Would it survive being taken off the compulsory subjects list in the final two years of schooling, and if not does that not say something profound about the vulnerability of the language (in that having it optional for 2 years of a 12 year programme could fatally expose it)?

Personally, I think we need to put more emphasis on teaching languages that more people actually speak. Teaching Mandarin Chinese to kids from primary school level could be very useful to us economically in years to come, and we could be unique to Europe in that sense. Wouldn't like to see the old language disappear all the same - to the extent that I'd leave it compulsory for till the end of the JC, but I don't see a point in forcing it down students necks in their final, very stressful 2 years.

What is the AH consensus on this one?

lukesmom

Optional

Yes I believe to preserve the little heritage we have left, that the Irish language should remain compulsory.

It should be optional in second level and should not form any prerequisite in 3rd level.
At least 1 language other than English should be mandatory in second level.

Hello_MrFox

Shouldn't most Irish people be able to speak Irish extremely well as they learn it in in school for all those years?

Menas

Yes, I suffered thru Peig, so can all future generations.

oncex

Optional

Compulsary but they need to update the course. Far too many old fashioned poems and stories, perhaps there would be more interest if the course wasnt so tedious

IvaBigWun

A horrible language to learn, especially the tenses.

100% optional

krudler

Hello_MrFox wrote: »

Shouldn't most Irish people be able to speak Irish extremely well as they learn it in in school for all those years?

I did French for 3 years in school and can speak and understand more French than Irish, the whole cirriculum needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, teach it properly not pigeon phrases to set questions in an oral exam.

P_Cash

im tellin ya now, and im workin in a multinational

if a foreign language was compulsory in Ireland, we would have

1, more companys setting up here.

2, companys would then recruit Irish people with a foreign language.

i work with 40 people, about 30 are in depts where a foreign lang is needed. and from that 30, about 26 are foreigners,

nothing against them, but the company has no option but recruit them for their language.

regards

P Cash

4zn76tysfajdxp

Should be made optional and the whole curriculum should be revised to focus on conversational skills and less emphasis on literature/poetry.

Shreddy Krueger

Forcing people to learn a language they do not like isn't "preserving" it. All you do is make them hate it more.

cnn27

Optional

Yes, keep the language compulsory, but split it into two seperate subjects. Have one compulsory subject which is just purely the language, same as how French, German etc is taught, and have more emphasis on speaking and developing communicating skills (and real speaking, not learning off picture stories for the oral exam). Then have a seperate subject with literature (novel, drama etc) which is optional, but less Peig and more stuff that students will find somewhat interesting (novels etc like that do actually exist in Irish!).

Hello_MrFox

krudler wrote: »

I did French for 3 years in school and can speak and understand more French than Irish, the whole cirriculum needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, teach it properly not pigeon phrases to set questions in an oral exam.

I didn't do Irish in school, but i would presume if someone was to study a language at a young age for all those years they would be able to speak it at an extremely high level if not near fluent. Maybe most people can and its only the people i know who can't!

Foxhound38

Hello_MrFox wrote: »

Shouldn't most Irish people be able to speak Irish extremely well as they learn it in in school for all those years?

It tends to be taught abysmally. Government policy regards it as having an equal footing with English, so it is taught in the same manner as English (a first language) and not as it probably should be which is as a second language as is German or French. Instead of the emphasis being put on teaching functional Irish, students are analysing poetry they haven't a clue about and route learning essays for the exam.

And by the time the LC rolls along, many students have little to no interest in the language and resent having to spend time at it - especially in ordinary level. That's not to say this is always the case, some students love it and fair play to them - but they are generally a minority and they would likely choose to do the language where it optional.

Not that anything is likely to change any time soon - people (especially enthusiasts and republican types) get *very* animated every time the suggestion of doing something about Irish in the education system is mentioned. Governments are terrified of it, so the crappy situation remains...

shruikan2553

Make it optional, there is no reason to keep it. The course needs to be completely changed as well, I passed the ordinary level leaving cert by learning 2 or 3 paragraphs half assed and cant have a basic conversation.

Seaneh

Ibrahim Some Peephole wrote: »

Should be made optional and the whole curriculum should be revised to focus on conversational skills and less emphasis on literature/poetry.

Pretty much what I was going to say.

Should be thought conversationally until 3rd year and then have the option of doing it as an academic subject.

The reason nobody can speak the language is because in school you are thought how pass a ****ing exam, not speak the damned language.

You don't learn the grammar of a language by reciting off verbs, you learn it from speaking the ****ing langauge. You don't teach children the tenses of verbs when they learn them from birth, they just figure the stuff out.

The way we teach second languages (not just irish) in this country is beyond backwards.

Foxhound38

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Make it optional, there is no reason to keep it. The course needs to be completely changed as well, I passed the ordinary level leaving cert by learning 2 or 3 paragraphs half assed and cant have a basic conversation.

I did ordinary level myself back in the day, as did most of my class...

As I remember, it was worse than doing nothing. The standard expected and taught was hilariously basic, and everyone including the teacher knew it. It was a half-arsed compromise measure designed to get people with no interest in it through the Irish language requirement for college, and again everyone knew this to be the case...

That we could all just route learn a few paragraphs of what was to us gibberish, replicate it on a page and pass what is supposed to be a proficiency test in a language we couldn't even handle a basic conversation in (after 12 years of compulsory education in it) is a disgrace, shows it to have been a waste of everybodies time and resources, and at the end of the day isn't a respectful way to treat a language we apparently regard as an important part of our cultural heritage.

Make it optional and turn it into a real subject with actual proficiency expected at the end for those that choose to do it...

shruikan2553

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I did ordinary level myself back in the day, as did most of my class...

As I remember, it was worse than doing nothing. The standard expected and taught was hilariously basic, and everyone including the teacher knew it. It was a half-arsed compromise measure designed to get people with no interest in it through the Irish language requirement for college, and again everyone knew this to be the case...

That we could all just route learn a few paragraphs of what was to us gibberish, replicate it on a page and pass what is supposed to be a proficiency test in a language we couldn't even handle a basic conversation in (after 12 years of compulsory education in it) is a disgrace, shows it to have been a waste of everybodies time and resources, and at the end of the day isn't a respectful way to treat a language we apparently regard as an important part of our cultural heritage.

Make it optional and turn it into a real subject with actual proficiency expected at the end for those that choose to do it...

This describes my experience perfectly. We would go into class and the next 35 minutes were translating a poem or story line by line. Then we would be told to do the questions for homework (which was never done) and then next day was spent going through the answers. It was painfully slow but it was better than what the people doing honours got to do. Dropping down to ordinary was one of the best school choices I made, along with french as I got fed up learning pages of phrases about the economy.

challengemaster

lukesmom wrote: »

Yes I believe to preserve the little heritage we have left, that the Irish language should remain compulsory.

If having most of the school leaving population unable to hold any sort of meaningful conversation in Irish or do most things bar recite a rehearsed essay about a robbery/accident/holiday is your idea of 'preserving our heritage', carry on as you are.

Make it optional and the people who want to learn it will choose to do so, and those that don't won't have it shoved down their neck and leave school with a hatred for the language that will probably last their entire life.

lertsnim

Optional. It is taught in such a way that many forget it so pointless for those people. It should be an option for those that want to learn it

Oakboy

Optional

challengemaster wrote: »

If having most of the school leaving population unable to hold any sort of meaningful conversation in Irish or do most things bar recite a rehearsed essay about a robbery/accident/holiday is your idea of 'preserving our heritage', carry on as you are.

Make it optional and the people who want to learn it will choose to do so, and those that don't won't have it shoved down their neck and leave school with a hatred for the language that will probably last their entire life.

wow i can't believe it took all of 19 posts to have that old chestnut brought up in the now weekly irish language 'discussion' :rolleyes:

As someone who values our history, culture and heritage it should remain compulsory. In my opinion, the very notion of the Irish nation dropping the Irish language is beyond belief. People refer to it being taught poorly, and I'd agree, but similar to the Seanad it needs reform not scrapping (incidentally another blueshirt fantasy)

Foxhound38

Oakboy wrote: »

wow i can't believe it took all of 19 posts to have that old chestnut brought up in the now weekly irish language 'discussion' :rolleyes:

As someone who values our history, culture and heritage it should remain compulsory. In my opinion, the very notion of the Irish nation dropping the Irish language is beyond belief. People refer to it being taught poorly, and I'd agree, but similar to the Seanad it needs reform not scrapping (incidentally another blueshirt fantasy)

Who is talking of scrapping it?

The question before this thread is whether to make it optional for the final 2 years of second level - not whether to get rid of it completely. I wouldn't support "scrapping" it

Helloooooooooo

I don't think it should.

FunLover18

We are all fluent in English by the age of FIVE, some of us are fluent in Irish which is great. After 8 years of studying Irish in primary school, and a further 3 years in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd years of secondary school, I fail to see how after ELEVEN years of studying Irish a further two years should be needed.

I would absolutely agree that it is part of our culture but so is GAA and alcohol abuse. Levels of fluency in Irish and attitudes towards Irish haven't changed drastically in over 50 years of compulsory Irish. Time to shake up the system.

oncex

Optional

Ibrahim Some Peephole wrote: »

Should be made optional and the whole curriculum should be revised to focus on conversational skills and less emphasis on literature/poetry.

well to be fair to the department the bealtrial is now worth 40%, and the stories and poems worth a mere 10% or something.

FunLover18

Oakboy wrote: »

As someone who values our history, culture and heritage it should remain compulsory. In my opinion, the very notion of the Irish nation dropping the Irish language is beyond belief. People refer to it being taught poorly, and I'd agree, but similar to the Seanad it needs reform not scrapping (incidentally another blueshirt fantasy)

The problem I have with this argument is that it implies that people who think it should be optional do not value our history, culture, and heritage. It implies that we're less Irish somehow.

Irish is a part of our culture but culture itself is not compulsory and you cannot make certain aspects mandatory, that defies the point. GAA is a huge part of our culture but it's not mandatory in schools. Irishness is not measurable, it's not quantifiable, so why make out that the language is a defining piece of who we are, especially when less than 50% of the population use it day to day.

Making Irish optional is not denying Irish lovers the right to study their language, it is not not scrapping the language, it is not undoing the 11 previous years of learning the language. I firmly believe that making Irish language will be a huge benefit to the language, it will be taken up by those who appreciate the language and have a genuine desire to speak it and use. The standards can only improve when you're teaching students who actually care about the subject.

looking_around

they need to re-train Irish teachers to teach the language more like the other foreign languages are taught, hopefully speaking it in class more, as constantly translating to English doesn't help them learn the language at all.

nino1

lukesmom wrote: »

Yes I believe to preserve the little heritage we have left, that the Irish language should remain compulsory.

What a draconian viewpoint!

Since we live in a democracy and not a dictatorship why not let those who want to preserve some hermitage continue to learn Irish and those that don't care the choice not to learn it?

nino1

Ibrahim Some Peephole wrote: »

the whole curriculum should be revised to focus on conversational skills and less emphasis on literature/poetry.

Yeah and then after 13 years of learning the language you might even be able to put two sentences together

4zn76tysfajdxp

nino1 wrote: »

Yeah and then after 13 years of learning the language you might even be able to put two sentences together

That's the idea, yeah.

Foxhound38

Ibrahim Some Peephole wrote: »

That's the idea, yeah.

But it's not, nor has it ever been the reality...

padd b1975

Optional

IvaBigWun wrote: »

A horrible language to learn, especially the tenses.

100% optional

You should try learning English as a foreign language, much harder task.

cram1971

I could actually speak better Irish when I left national school than when I did my leaving cert. I did it in 5th year and dropped the subject.

I believe there is a reall opportunity to put a curriculum together that would be genuinely interesting and stimulating that more people would want to learn.

Wattle

It's not a dead language it's a minority language and probably will stay that way. For the vast majority it ceases being any way relevant to their daily lives as soon as they finish their leaving cert. By all means learn it if you want to but forcing it on people only breeds resentment.

moc moc a moc

lukesmom wrote: »

Yes I believe to preserve the little heritage we have left, that the Irish language should remain compulsory.

Because that's been working so well for us so far?? Can you even speak Irish? I don't exactly see very many posts from you in the Gaeilge forum.

Forcing people to do something kindles a hatred for it. If the stick isn't working, you need a carrot.

finisher489

Weird thing is French/German are optional in my school for LC though Irish is compulsory for Leaving Cert. You can do Business if you don't want to do French/German.

4zn76tysfajdxp

Foxhound38 wrote: »

But it's not, nor has it ever been the reality...

No, that's why I said it should be reformed.

homemadecider

Optional. It's probably the only subject I studied in school that has never been useful to my life since I did my Leaving over a decade ago.

FunLover18

homemadecider wrote: »

Optional. It's probably the only subject I studied in school that has never been useful to my life since I did my Leaving over a decade ago.

Would you have chosen it were it optional? Mandatory Irish for 100% of students on the off chance that even 20% might find it useful in later life is ridiculous.

lightspeed

I will never understand why this fascism is acceptable?

When it comes to gay rights for example, many nowadays say well it is their choice and what right does anybody else have to tell them how to live their lives.

That would be my position on that issue but i feel the same about the Irish language. I dont agree with fascism so what gives others who also agree with a live and let live approach the right to have an exemption on this issue and behave like well, fascists?

homemadecider

FunLover18 wrote: »

Would you have chosen it were it optional? Mandatory Irish for 100% of students on the off chance that even 20% might find it useful in later life is ridiculous.

Of course I wouldn't. Can you give me a reason why I should?

FunLover18

homemadecider wrote: »

Of course I wouldn't. Can you give me a reason why I should?

Plenty. As I'm sure any Irish lover will tell you there are are plenty of jobs for those who speak Irish, teaching, tourism, civil service, media. Primary school teaching requires Irish, and I think NUI requires Irish as well (although I would hope that would go were it made optional. The job opportunities remain though.

Funny how all these incentives to choose Irish are always forgotten when making Irish optional would be detrimental to the language

homemadecider

FunLover18 wrote: »

Plenty. As I'm sure any Irish lover will tell you there are are plenty of jobs for those who speak Irish, teaching, tourism, civil service, media. Primary school teaching requires Irish, and I think NUI requires Irish as well (although I would hope that would go were it made optional. The job opportunities remain though.

Funny how all these incentives to choose Irish are always forgotten when making Irish optional would be detrimental to the language

What if I don't plan on being a teacher or any other job that needs Irish - which is the majority of jobs in Ireland? What is my motivation then? Most people in the country will never need Irish in their job so why should they learn the language? This is a genuine question.

FunLover18

homemadecider wrote: »

What if I don't plan on being a teacher or any other job that needs Irish - which is the majority of jobs in Ireland? What is my motivation then? Most people in the country will never need Irish in their job so why should they learn the language? This is a genuine question.

Irish is being preserved at the moment by those who keep it up after school, or those who take it up in college. I honestly believe that the vast majority of fluent Irish speakers did not develop their love for the language in the final two years of secondary education, they are with it or at least raised with a passion for it. It's that passion that will preserve the Irish language. The primary school curriculum still needs to be improved, teach a second subject through Irish and instil an interest for the language at an early age. The majority of Irish speakers I know don't use Irish in their jobs, they learnt Irish because they feel it is part of who they are as Irish people. Jobs are an added incentive but at the end of the day if you want to learn and use a language you have to have to some sort of interest. I think the fact that we can have this level of discussion on the issue proves that there is enough interest to keep the Irish alive were it made optional.

homemadecider

FunLover18 wrote: »

I think the fact that we can have this level of discussion on the issue proves that there is enough interest to keep the Irish alive were it made optional.

Then make it optional so. I've never developed a love for the Irish language. I don't use it, I don't need it, I don't see it as a vital part of my 'heritage'.

Let's make it optional for those who want it, and more importantly let those who aren't interested opt-out entirely.

FunLover18

homemadecider wrote: »

Then make it optional so. I've never developed a love for the Irish language. I don't use it, I don't need it, I don't see it as a vital part of my 'heritage'.

Let's make it optional for those who want it, and more importantly let those who aren't interested opt-out entirely.

I just realised that I misread your original post as;

homemadecider wrote: »

Optional. It's probably the only subject I studied in school that has been useful to my life since I did my Leaving over a decade ago.

Davidius

The only subject I think deserves to be compulsory is maths. Because maths is balanced and for pros.

Anybody who lets compulsory Irish engender a lifelong hatred for the language itself has lost the plot. I barely even remember school and I only left 4 years ago. I know I hated Irish class and having to do Irish. Now I don't, and I've come to appreciate that it's a rich language with a lot of history rather than some terrible tool of oppression.

Sleepy

You left out the "simply scrapped" option OP...

wendell borton

All subjects should be optional in the LC.

SparkySpitfire

Optional

Hmm I dunno...

I actually liked it and I think it helped me with picking up other languages. Although they need to change the structure of the course. Too much prose and poetry and not enough speaking and actually understanding what's being said to you. That being said, not everyone liked it so it'd be unfair for me to say it should be compulsory just cos I liked it.

But if you're going to make it optional, then make maths and English optional too. By the JC you know enough maths for the real world (unless you're going into a maths-related field, in which case, choose maths!) and same with English.

If every subject was optional, people would get so much better results without "that subject" to drag them down, and I think overall students would be happier.

rainbow kirby

FunLover18 wrote: »

Would you have chosen it were it optional? Mandatory Irish for 100% of students on the off chance that even 20% might find it useful in later life is ridiculous.

Not a chance I would have chosen it if it was optional. I did ordinary level, barely did a tap for it and still got an A2, felt it was a huge waste of time that could be better spent on teaching other subjects. Put that time into maths and science subjects and we would be FAR better off.

I wouldn't necessarily teach it in primary school either - I'd go with a modern European language or Mandarin Chinese from age 5, then start teaching Irish at around 5th class-1st year age through until JC/TY, teaching it in a similar way to how modern European languages are taught. Definitely not compulsory for LC.