Should Irish remain a compulsory Leaving Cert subject?

padd b1975 · 13-12-2013 09:43PM

Optional

IvaBigWun wrote: »

A horrible language to learn, especially the tenses.

100% optional

You should try learning English as a foreign language, much harder task.

cram1971 · 13-12-2013 09:55PM

I could actually speak better Irish when I left national school than when I did my leaving cert. I did it in 5th year and dropped the subject.

I believe there is a reall opportunity to put a curriculum together that would be genuinely interesting and stimulating that more people would want to learn.

Wattle · 13-12-2013 09:59PM

It's not a dead language it's a minority language and probably will stay that way. For the vast majority it ceases being any way relevant to their daily lives as soon as they finish their leaving cert. By all means learn it if you want to but forcing it on people only breeds resentment.

moc moc a moc · 13-12-2013 10:03PM

lukesmom wrote: »

Yes I believe to preserve the little heritage we have left, that the Irish language should remain compulsory.

Because that's been working so well for us so far?? Can you even speak Irish? I don't exactly see very many posts from you in the Gaeilge forum.

Forcing people to do something kindles a hatred for it. If the stick isn't working, you need a carrot.

finisher489 · 13-12-2013 10:07PM

Weird thing is French/German are optional in my school for LC though Irish is compulsory for Leaving Cert. You can do Business if you don't want to do French/German.

4zn76tysfajdxp · 13-12-2013 10:09PM

Foxhound38 wrote: »

But it's not, nor has it ever been the reality...

No, that's why I said it should be reformed.

homemadecider · 13-12-2013 10:13PM

Optional. It's probably the only subject I studied in school that has never been useful to my life since I did my Leaving over a decade ago.

FunLover18 · 13-12-2013 10:15PM

homemadecider wrote: »

Optional. It's probably the only subject I studied in school that has never been useful to my life since I did my Leaving over a decade ago.

Would you have chosen it were it optional? Mandatory Irish for 100% of students on the off chance that even 20% might find it useful in later life is ridiculous.

lightspeed · 13-12-2013 10:20PM

I will never understand why this fascism is acceptable?

When it comes to gay rights for example, many nowadays say well it is their choice and what right does anybody else have to tell them how to live their lives.

That would be my position on that issue but i feel the same about the Irish language. I dont agree with fascism so what gives others who also agree with a live and let live approach the right to have an exemption on this issue and behave like well, fascists?

homemadecider · 13-12-2013 10:22PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

Would you have chosen it were it optional? Mandatory Irish for 100% of students on the off chance that even 20% might find it useful in later life is ridiculous.

Of course I wouldn't. Can you give me a reason why I should?

FunLover18 · 13-12-2013 10:29PM

homemadecider wrote: »

Of course I wouldn't. Can you give me a reason why I should?

Plenty. As I'm sure any Irish lover will tell you there are are plenty of jobs for those who speak Irish, teaching, tourism, civil service, media. Primary school teaching requires Irish, and I think NUI requires Irish as well (although I would hope that would go were it made optional. The job opportunities remain though.

Funny how all these incentives to choose Irish are always forgotten when making Irish optional would be detrimental to the language

homemadecider · 13-12-2013 10:34PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

Plenty. As I'm sure any Irish lover will tell you there are are plenty of jobs for those who speak Irish, teaching, tourism, civil service, media. Primary school teaching requires Irish, and I think NUI requires Irish as well (although I would hope that would go were it made optional. The job opportunities remain though.

Funny how all these incentives to choose Irish are always forgotten when making Irish optional would be detrimental to the language

What if I don't plan on being a teacher or any other job that needs Irish - which is the majority of jobs in Ireland? What is my motivation then? Most people in the country will never need Irish in their job so why should they learn the language? This is a genuine question.

FunLover18 · 13-12-2013 10:44PM

homemadecider wrote: »

What if I don't plan on being a teacher or any other job that needs Irish - which is the majority of jobs in Ireland? What is my motivation then? Most people in the country will never need Irish in their job so why should they learn the language? This is a genuine question.

Irish is being preserved at the moment by those who keep it up after school, or those who take it up in college. I honestly believe that the vast majority of fluent Irish speakers did not develop their love for the language in the final two years of secondary education, they are with it or at least raised with a passion for it. It's that passion that will preserve the Irish language. The primary school curriculum still needs to be improved, teach a second subject through Irish and instil an interest for the language at an early age. The majority of Irish speakers I know don't use Irish in their jobs, they learnt Irish because they feel it is part of who they are as Irish people. Jobs are an added incentive but at the end of the day if you want to learn and use a language you have to have to some sort of interest. I think the fact that we can have this level of discussion on the issue proves that there is enough interest to keep the Irish alive were it made optional.

homemadecider · 13-12-2013 10:48PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

I think the fact that we can have this level of discussion on the issue proves that there is enough interest to keep the Irish alive were it made optional.

Then make it optional so. I've never developed a love for the Irish language. I don't use it, I don't need it, I don't see it as a vital part of my 'heritage'.

Let's make it optional for those who want it, and more importantly let those who aren't interested opt-out entirely.

FunLover18 · 13-12-2013 10:52PM

homemadecider wrote: »

Then make it optional so. I've never developed a love for the Irish language. I don't use it, I don't need it, I don't see it as a vital part of my 'heritage'.

Let's make it optional for those who want it, and more importantly let those who aren't interested opt-out entirely.

I just realised that I misread your original post as;

homemadecider wrote: »

Optional. It's probably the only subject I studied in school that has been useful to my life since I did my Leaving over a decade ago.

Davidius · 13-12-2013 11:22PM

The only subject I think deserves to be compulsory is maths. Because maths is balanced and for pros.

Anybody who lets compulsory Irish engender a lifelong hatred for the language itself has lost the plot. I barely even remember school and I only left 4 years ago. I know I hated Irish class and having to do Irish. Now I don't, and I've come to appreciate that it's a rich language with a lot of history rather than some terrible tool of oppression.

Sleepy · 13-12-2013 11:26PM

You left out the "simply scrapped" option OP...

wendell borton · 13-12-2013 11:37PM

All subjects should be optional in the LC.

SparkySpitfire · 13-12-2013 11:50PM

Optional

Hmm I dunno...

I actually liked it and I think it helped me with picking up other languages. Although they need to change the structure of the course. Too much prose and poetry and not enough speaking and actually understanding what's being said to you. That being said, not everyone liked it so it'd be unfair for me to say it should be compulsory just cos I liked it.

But if you're going to make it optional, then make maths and English optional too. By the JC you know enough maths for the real world (unless you're going into a maths-related field, in which case, choose maths!) and same with English.

If every subject was optional, people would get so much better results without "that subject" to drag them down, and I think overall students would be happier.

rainbow kirby · 14-12-2013 12:35AM

FunLover18 wrote: »

Would you have chosen it were it optional? Mandatory Irish for 100% of students on the off chance that even 20% might find it useful in later life is ridiculous.

Not a chance I would have chosen it if it was optional. I did ordinary level, barely did a tap for it and still got an A2, felt it was a huge waste of time that could be better spent on teaching other subjects. Put that time into maths and science subjects and we would be FAR better off.

I wouldn't necessarily teach it in primary school either - I'd go with a modern European language or Mandarin Chinese from age 5, then start teaching Irish at around 5th class-1st year age through until JC/TY, teaching it in a similar way to how modern European languages are taught. Definitely not compulsory for LC.

Balmed Out · 14-12-2013 12:40AM

Optional

Its funny but coming from an attitude of having absolutely no mass in it, the older I get the more value and appreciation I have for Irish. Id be interested in an age profile breakdown in the vote. In my mid 20s none of my friends would have felt Irish should be a subject at secondary level, now ten years later Id say its the opposite

FunLover18 · 14-12-2013 01:30AM

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Not a chance I would have chosen it if it was optional. I did ordinary level, barely did a tap for it and still got an A2, felt it was a huge waste of time that could be better spent on teaching other subjects. Put that time into maths and science subjects and we would be FAR better off.

I wouldn't necessarily teach it in primary school either - I'd go with a modern European language or Mandarin Chinese from age 5, then start teaching Irish at around 5th class-1st year age through until JC/TY, teaching it in a similar way to how modern European languages are taught. Definitely not compulsory for LC.

Totally agree. I did Ordinary for LC and we were still conjugating verbs, which is ridiculous. I would keep it in primary schools, scrapping it from primary schools is never going to happen (let's start with baby steps

). A second subject being taught through Irish at primary level would be so much better and has been proven to increase learning. I agree about foreign language. More focus needs to be put on foreign languages which are of more use in the real world.

LordSutch · 14-12-2013 01:35AM

Balmed Out wrote: »

Its funny but coming from an attitude of having absolutely no mass in it, the older I get the more value and appreciation I have for Irish. Id be interested in an age profile breakdown in the vote. In my mid 20s none of my friends would have felt Irish should be a subject at secondary level, now ten years later Id say its the opposite

The older I get the more annoyed I become thinking about how much wasted time I spent being forced (to do Irish) not to learn it, just to do it, and always with a threat of the metre stick on the back of the legs if we didn't know our stupid friggin lines :mad:

French class was always so much more relaxed and 'normal' + we learnt some French in the process, and we loved our French teacher too.

Non compulsory Irish for Leaving Cert students I say. Enda tried to start this but was shot down in flames, by the Labour party (I think)?

Foxhound38 · 14-12-2013 01:50AM

LordSutch wrote: »

The older I get the more annoyed I become thinking about how much wasted time I spent being forced (to do Irish) not to learn it, just to do it, and always with a threat of the metre stick on the back of the legs if we didn't know our stupid friggin lines :mad:

French class was always so much more relaxed and 'normal' + we learnt some French in the process, and we loved our French teacher too.

Non compulsory Irish for Leaving Cert students I say. Enda tried to start this but was shot down in flames, by the Labour party (I think)?

It was mentioned while still in opposition. Think it was SF, FF and legions of Ghaeilgoeri who forced FG to drop it - the reaction, as it often is with republicans and irish enthusiasts when this particular golden cow is talked about, was quite strong...

roisin24 · 14-12-2013 02:02AM

If it's for the purpose of 'preserving our heritage' then why not just replace it with an Irish Culture class. This would involve teaching pupils about and how to play Irish instruments, sports and other aspects of traditional society in Ireland, including the language to an extent. Because if the purpose of keeping it compulsory is for 'heritage' reasons then it is acting as more of a deterrent.

Galwayguy35 · 14-12-2013 02:32AM

Definately optional, it's sad that we are the only country I know of that can't speak our native language but I have to say i hated Irish in school.

Maybe it's abit different now but having to learn some boring poem that we had no interest in was torture.

And for the Leavng Cert that miserable ould biddy Peig had to be endured.

The teacher we had must have known we had no interest in the class.

April O Neill II · 14-12-2013 02:48AM

IvaBigWun wrote: »

A horrible language to learn, especially the tenses.

100% optional

I was always good in school, except at Irish. And it's not a language thing, I did well at French. Irish is horrible to learn, I have no aptitude or natural affinity for it.

Stained Class · 14-12-2013 03:03AM

Oh for fooks sake.

Just lance this boil on the arse of our educational system.

Millions (of mine & thousands of others money)spent & for what???????

Make it optional from day 1 of your child's education.

See what would happen.

We wouldn't be having this discussion now.

Just shoot this limping dog in head now & put it out of it's misery FFS!

moc moc a moc · 14-12-2013 03:14AM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

it's sad that we are the only country I know of that can't speak our native language

For the sake of argument:

The vast majority of the countries of the Americas don't speak their own 'native' language, and the same goes for many African countries. The majority of Arabic countries speak Arabic (albeit regional dialects). Belgium, Austria, Andorra, Monaco and Switzerland don't have their own languages either, as far as I know. I don't get the impression a huge number of Scots speak Scots Gaelic. Most non-aboriginal Australians and New Zealanders speak only English.

We're hardly alone.

Foxhound38 · 14-12-2013 03:48AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqYtG9BNhfM

Poor Yu Ming would be f*cked if the language died all the same! :eek:

Should Irish remain a compulsory Leaving Cert subject?

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