Should Irish remain a compulsory Leaving Cert subject?

Foxhound38 · 13-12-2013 07:48PM #1

Is it a living language and an aspect of our cultural heritage too important to be optional in our nation's schools, or is it a largely dead language kept on life support artificially? Does the compulsory nature of it breed more resentment than respect? Would it survive being taken off the compulsory subjects list in the final two years of schooling, and if not does that not say something profound about the vulnerability of the language (in that having it optional for 2 years of a 12 year programme could fatally expose it)?

Personally, I think we need to put more emphasis on teaching languages that more people actually speak. Teaching Mandarin Chinese to kids from primary school level could be very useful to us economically in years to come, and we could be unique to Europe in that sense. Wouldn't like to see the old language disappear all the same - to the extent that I'd leave it compulsory for till the end of the JC, but I don't see a point in forcing it down students necks in their final, very stressful 2 years.

What is the AH consensus on this one?

lukesmom · 13-12-2013 07:50PM

Optional

Yes I believe to preserve the little heritage we have left, that the Irish language should remain compulsory.

13-12-2013 07:52PM

It should be optional in second level and should not form any prerequisite in 3rd level.
At least 1 language other than English should be mandatory in second level.

Hello_MrFox · 13-12-2013 07:56PM

Shouldn't most Irish people be able to speak Irish extremely well as they learn it in in school for all those years?

Menas · 13-12-2013 07:59PM

Yes, I suffered thru Peig, so can all future generations.

oncex · 13-12-2013 07:59PM

Optional

Compulsary but they need to update the course. Far too many old fashioned poems and stories, perhaps there would be more interest if the course wasnt so tedious

IvaBigWun · 13-12-2013 07:59PM

A horrible language to learn, especially the tenses.

100% optional

krudler · 13-12-2013 08:01PM

Hello_MrFox wrote: »

Shouldn't most Irish people be able to speak Irish extremely well as they learn it in in school for all those years?

I did French for 3 years in school and can speak and understand more French than Irish, the whole cirriculum needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, teach it properly not pigeon phrases to set questions in an oral exam.

P_Cash · 13-12-2013 08:02PM

im tellin ya now, and im workin in a multinational

if a foreign language was compulsory in Ireland, we would have

1, more companys setting up here.

2, companys would then recruit Irish people with a foreign language.

i work with 40 people, about 30 are in depts where a foreign lang is needed. and from that 30, about 26 are foreigners,

nothing against them, but the company has no option but recruit them for their language.

regards

P Cash

4zn76tysfajdxp · 13-12-2013 08:02PM

Should be made optional and the whole curriculum should be revised to focus on conversational skills and less emphasis on literature/poetry.

Shreddy Krueger · 13-12-2013 08:02PM

Forcing people to learn a language they do not like isn't "preserving" it. All you do is make them hate it more.

cnn27 · 13-12-2013 08:04PM

Optional

Yes, keep the language compulsory, but split it into two seperate subjects. Have one compulsory subject which is just purely the language, same as how French, German etc is taught, and have more emphasis on speaking and developing communicating skills (and real speaking, not learning off picture stories for the oral exam). Then have a seperate subject with literature (novel, drama etc) which is optional, but less Peig and more stuff that students will find somewhat interesting (novels etc like that do actually exist in Irish!).

Hello_MrFox · 13-12-2013 08:04PM

krudler wrote: »

I did French for 3 years in school and can speak and understand more French than Irish, the whole cirriculum needs to be rebuilt from the ground up, teach it properly not pigeon phrases to set questions in an oral exam.

I didn't do Irish in school, but i would presume if someone was to study a language at a young age for all those years they would be able to speak it at an extremely high level if not near fluent. Maybe most people can and its only the people i know who can't!

Foxhound38 · 13-12-2013 08:05PM

Hello_MrFox wrote: »

Shouldn't most Irish people be able to speak Irish extremely well as they learn it in in school for all those years?

It tends to be taught abysmally. Government policy regards it as having an equal footing with English, so it is taught in the same manner as English (a first language) and not as it probably should be which is as a second language as is German or French. Instead of the emphasis being put on teaching functional Irish, students are analysing poetry they haven't a clue about and route learning essays for the exam.

And by the time the LC rolls along, many students have little to no interest in the language and resent having to spend time at it - especially in ordinary level. That's not to say this is always the case, some students love it and fair play to them - but they are generally a minority and they would likely choose to do the language where it optional.

Not that anything is likely to change any time soon - people (especially enthusiasts and republican types) get *very* animated every time the suggestion of doing something about Irish in the education system is mentioned. Governments are terrified of it, so the crappy situation remains...

shruikan2553 · 13-12-2013 08:07PM

Make it optional, there is no reason to keep it. The course needs to be completely changed as well, I passed the ordinary level leaving cert by learning 2 or 3 paragraphs half assed and cant have a basic conversation.

Seaneh · 13-12-2013 08:08PM

Ibrahim Some Peephole wrote: »

Should be made optional and the whole curriculum should be revised to focus on conversational skills and less emphasis on literature/poetry.

Pretty much what I was going to say.

Should be thought conversationally until 3rd year and then have the option of doing it as an academic subject.

The reason nobody can speak the language is because in school you are thought how pass a ****ing exam, not speak the damned language.

You don't learn the grammar of a language by reciting off verbs, you learn it from speaking the ****ing langauge. You don't teach children the tenses of verbs when they learn them from birth, they just figure the stuff out.

The way we teach second languages (not just irish) in this country is beyond backwards.

Foxhound38 · 13-12-2013 08:12PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Make it optional, there is no reason to keep it. The course needs to be completely changed as well, I passed the ordinary level leaving cert by learning 2 or 3 paragraphs half assed and cant have a basic conversation.

I did ordinary level myself back in the day, as did most of my class...

As I remember, it was worse than doing nothing. The standard expected and taught was hilariously basic, and everyone including the teacher knew it. It was a half-arsed compromise measure designed to get people with no interest in it through the Irish language requirement for college, and again everyone knew this to be the case...

That we could all just route learn a few paragraphs of what was to us gibberish, replicate it on a page and pass what is supposed to be a proficiency test in a language we couldn't even handle a basic conversation in (after 12 years of compulsory education in it) is a disgrace, shows it to have been a waste of everybodies time and resources, and at the end of the day isn't a respectful way to treat a language we apparently regard as an important part of our cultural heritage.

Make it optional and turn it into a real subject with actual proficiency expected at the end for those that choose to do it...

shruikan2553 · 13-12-2013 08:29PM

Foxhound38 wrote: »

I did ordinary level myself back in the day, as did most of my class...

As I remember, it was worse than doing nothing. The standard expected and taught was hilariously basic, and everyone including the teacher knew it. It was a half-arsed compromise measure designed to get people with no interest in it through the Irish language requirement for college, and again everyone knew this to be the case...

That we could all just route learn a few paragraphs of what was to us gibberish, replicate it on a page and pass what is supposed to be a proficiency test in a language we couldn't even handle a basic conversation in (after 12 years of compulsory education in it) is a disgrace, shows it to have been a waste of everybodies time and resources, and at the end of the day isn't a respectful way to treat a language we apparently regard as an important part of our cultural heritage.

Make it optional and turn it into a real subject with actual proficiency expected at the end for those that choose to do it...

This describes my experience perfectly. We would go into class and the next 35 minutes were translating a poem or story line by line. Then we would be told to do the questions for homework (which was never done) and then next day was spent going through the answers. It was painfully slow but it was better than what the people doing honours got to do. Dropping down to ordinary was one of the best school choices I made, along with french as I got fed up learning pages of phrases about the economy.

challengemaster · 13-12-2013 08:35PM

lukesmom wrote: »

Yes I believe to preserve the little heritage we have left, that the Irish language should remain compulsory.

If having most of the school leaving population unable to hold any sort of meaningful conversation in Irish or do most things bar recite a rehearsed essay about a robbery/accident/holiday is your idea of 'preserving our heritage', carry on as you are.

Make it optional and the people who want to learn it will choose to do so, and those that don't won't have it shoved down their neck and leave school with a hatred for the language that will probably last their entire life.

lertsnim · 13-12-2013 08:39PM

Optional. It is taught in such a way that many forget it so pointless for those people. It should be an option for those that want to learn it

Oakboy · 13-12-2013 08:41PM

Optional

challengemaster wrote: »

If having most of the school leaving population unable to hold any sort of meaningful conversation in Irish or do most things bar recite a rehearsed essay about a robbery/accident/holiday is your idea of 'preserving our heritage', carry on as you are.

Make it optional and the people who want to learn it will choose to do so, and those that don't won't have it shoved down their neck and leave school with a hatred for the language that will probably last their entire life.

wow i can't believe it took all of 19 posts to have that old chestnut brought up in the now weekly irish language 'discussion' :rolleyes:

As someone who values our history, culture and heritage it should remain compulsory. In my opinion, the very notion of the Irish nation dropping the Irish language is beyond belief. People refer to it being taught poorly, and I'd agree, but similar to the Seanad it needs reform not scrapping (incidentally another blueshirt fantasy)

Foxhound38 · 13-12-2013 08:50PM

Oakboy wrote: »

wow i can't believe it took all of 19 posts to have that old chestnut brought up in the now weekly irish language 'discussion' :rolleyes:

As someone who values our history, culture and heritage it should remain compulsory. In my opinion, the very notion of the Irish nation dropping the Irish language is beyond belief. People refer to it being taught poorly, and I'd agree, but similar to the Seanad it needs reform not scrapping (incidentally another blueshirt fantasy)

Who is talking of scrapping it?

The question before this thread is whether to make it optional for the final 2 years of second level - not whether to get rid of it completely. I wouldn't support "scrapping" it

Helloooooooooo · 13-12-2013 08:51PM

I don't think it should.

FunLover18 · 13-12-2013 08:52PM

We are all fluent in English by the age of FIVE, some of us are fluent in Irish which is great. After 8 years of studying Irish in primary school, and a further 3 years in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd years of secondary school, I fail to see how after ELEVEN years of studying Irish a further two years should be needed.

I would absolutely agree that it is part of our culture but so is GAA and alcohol abuse. Levels of fluency in Irish and attitudes towards Irish haven't changed drastically in over 50 years of compulsory Irish. Time to shake up the system.

oncex · 13-12-2013 09:12PM

Optional

Ibrahim Some Peephole wrote: »

Should be made optional and the whole curriculum should be revised to focus on conversational skills and less emphasis on literature/poetry.

well to be fair to the department the bealtrial is now worth 40%, and the stories and poems worth a mere 10% or something.

FunLover18 · 13-12-2013 09:24PM

Oakboy wrote: »

As someone who values our history, culture and heritage it should remain compulsory. In my opinion, the very notion of the Irish nation dropping the Irish language is beyond belief. People refer to it being taught poorly, and I'd agree, but similar to the Seanad it needs reform not scrapping (incidentally another blueshirt fantasy)

The problem I have with this argument is that it implies that people who think it should be optional do not value our history, culture, and heritage. It implies that we're less Irish somehow.

Irish is a part of our culture but culture itself is not compulsory and you cannot make certain aspects mandatory, that defies the point. GAA is a huge part of our culture but it's not mandatory in schools. Irishness is not measurable, it's not quantifiable, so why make out that the language is a defining piece of who we are, especially when less than 50% of the population use it day to day.

Making Irish optional is not denying Irish lovers the right to study their language, it is not not scrapping the language, it is not undoing the 11 previous years of learning the language. I firmly believe that making Irish language will be a huge benefit to the language, it will be taken up by those who appreciate the language and have a genuine desire to speak it and use. The standards can only improve when you're teaching students who actually care about the subject.

looking_around · 13-12-2013 09:27PM

they need to re-train Irish teachers to teach the language more like the other foreign languages are taught, hopefully speaking it in class more, as constantly translating to English doesn't help them learn the language at all.

nino1 · 13-12-2013 09:32PM

lukesmom wrote: »

Yes I believe to preserve the little heritage we have left, that the Irish language should remain compulsory.

What a draconian viewpoint!

Since we live in a democracy and not a dictatorship why not let those who want to preserve some hermitage continue to learn Irish and those that don't care the choice not to learn it?

nino1 · 13-12-2013 09:34PM

Ibrahim Some Peephole wrote: »

the whole curriculum should be revised to focus on conversational skills and less emphasis on literature/poetry.

Yeah and then after 13 years of learning the language you might even be able to put two sentences together

4zn76tysfajdxp · 13-12-2013 09:38PM

nino1 wrote: »

Yeah and then after 13 years of learning the language you might even be able to put two sentences together

That's the idea, yeah.

Foxhound38 · 13-12-2013 09:41PM

Ibrahim Some Peephole wrote: »

That's the idea, yeah.

But it's not, nor has it ever been the reality...

Should Irish remain a compulsory Leaving Cert subject?

Should Irish be compulsory or optional in the LC? 187 votes

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