Hypnobirthing - anyone tried it?

January

Sligo1 wrote: »

But both options are available if you just refuse... I laboured normally and progressed very well... Yes the midwives wanted to put up oxytocin after the 2 hours as per hospital policy... But I let them I know I didn't need it. 2 hours later I was 10 cm... And baby was out in 8 minutes or 3 contractions. Options are always a availiable so long as the mother and father are aware of their rights as a patient... They right to refuse is their perogative....

And I don't believe anyone should have to pay to know those rights.

Pachamammy

Sligo1 wrote: »

Can you please provide a link citing this statement? I actually think it is ridiculous... But if there is a medical definition of a "normal birth" that involves this terminology then fair enough...

Are you stating that a woman who has a perfectly normal vaginal birth to a healthy baby is considered not to have had a "normal" birth because they may have received pethidine or some form or pain relief?

Pethidine is not considered to be a "medical intervention" as such. Medical interventions include breaking the waters to start labour, speeding up labour artificially with drugs, use of the epidural, use of forceps or ventouse, an episiotomy or a c section.

Apologies if this has upset people - it certainly wasn't my intention and it's not my definition. There are tons of links I could post. This one is a document from the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists in the UK and the definition of normal birth or normal delivery is on page 3. As I said, both of my own births have involved assistance in some way. My use of the word normal was in no way competitive - if it were I'd have lost the competition!! It was simply a use of normative terminology around birth - I didn't come up with it.

http://www.rcog.org.uk/files/rcog-corp/uploaded-files/JointStatmentNormalBirth2007.pdf

Sligo1

January wrote: »

And I don't believe anyone should have to pay to know those rights.

Completely agree! Everybody should know they are not obligated to do or take anything they don't want to! They don't need a course to know this.... And if they do want something... It doesn't mean they can't classify themselves as having a "normal" birth.

Pachamammy

Sligo1 wrote: »

But both options are available if you just refuse... They right to refuse is their perogative....
.

Absolutely, of course they are. But many women don't know that they can refuse. It's great to hear from women who have been very much informed in the decision making process of birth.

Couchkitten

I only got the birth package MP3s ...next time I would do the course. I managed without a squeak until around 9cms when I lost my focus and asked for Gas and air which made me lose my focus even more. The midwives could not believe how calm I was up until that point.

Unfortunately the pushing stage didn't go well and I ended up in theater but gentlebirth breathing kept me calm again there, would highly recommend.

Pachamammy

Sligo1 wrote: »

Completely agree! Everybody should know they are not obligated to do or take anything they don't want to! They don't need a course to know this..

How do they find this out though? From women like yourself...unfortunately there aren't enough women out there questioning their care.

Pachamammy

January wrote: »

And I don't believe anyone should have to pay to know those rights.

I agree with you. Where do you suggest women go for this information though? And how do you suggest men learn how to support their partners in labour? The hospital classes neither prepare women to question their care or prepare their birth partner to offer support. It would be fantastic if they did.

Hello Lady!

I have to say, as someone who is now on her third inpatient admission to the pre-natal ward, my first hand experience is that no specific treatment was pushed on anyone. I have been there when about 10 women went into labour. Not once have I heard a midwife insist or push any specific treatment. Each time the medical, pharmaceutical and natural options were offered. In fact most times the patient has requested medical help before having it offered, and again on each occasion the midwife asks 'are you sure? The downside is x/y/z'.

In fairness to the midwifery staff, it is a difficult line to straddle - encouraging women and empowering them to do what their body is able to do and yet not seeming to withhold medical options or promote interventions or any agenda. It's not easy by any means.

The one thing I definitely came away from my ante natal classes with, was the knowledge that my body is able to do this thing, and I need to trust it, but know that if I prefer to have assistance, be that medical, pharmaceutical or otherwise then that is available too and I am free to ask for it. Same goes for breastfeeding.

From my own consultant I have been told that unless I insist on a section or there is a safety reason, her preference is for a normal vaginal birth. At the time I actually assumed all twin births were sections. As it turns out my first twin is presenting breech so it most likely will be a section. Now add some medical complications into the mix and it's starting to look like it'll be a planned section. But at no time was that taken for granted and I have never felt that a specific mode of delivery was pushed on me. Even now if I wanted to try for a vaginal birth it would be considered and only excluded if the risk is too great.

That's just been my experience anyway.

eviltwin

Pachamammy wrote: »

I agree with you. Where do you suggest women go for this information though? And how do you suggest men learn how to support their partners in labour? The hospital classes neither prepare women to question their care or prepare their birth partner to offer support. It would be fantastic if they did.

Why should they have to pay multiple hundreds of euros to learn it? Sounds like a nice money maker for someone.

SanFran07

January wrote: »

And I don't believe anyone should have to pay to know those rights.

You're absolutely correct - this information should be freely available from the hospital mum is attending. The pros/cons of every routine (aka not medically indicated) intervention should be freely discussed in the antenatal period so parents can make informed decisions on the day.

Evidence based care should be the norm in Ireland rather than the exception. Most first time Mums are not aware that they can refuse non medically indicated interruptions to the birth process because there is an assumption that it must be necessary....they are generally not aware of the time limits and space pressures of the labour ward and how that will impact their care on the day.

Pachamammy

Hello Lady! wrote: »

I have to say, as someone who is now on her third inpatient admission to the pre-natal ward, my first hand experience is that no specific treatment was pushed on anyone.

That's great that that has been your experience. Hospital policy is often to intervene though - for example, in some maternity units, inductions are preferred at 10 days, wheareas in others it's 14 days, in accordance with evidence. In some maternity units, it's still policy to break the waters when you're admitted. Many women don't mind any of this. Some women do, but they don't know they can refuse something that is hospital policy.

Sligo1

Pachamammy wrote: »

Pethidine is not considered to be a "medical intervention" as such. Medical interventions include breaking the waters to start labour, speeding up labour artificially with drugs, use of the epidural, use of forceps or ventouse, an episiotomy or a c section.

Apologies if this has upset people - it certainly wasn't my intention and it's not my definition. There are tons of links I could post. This one is a document from the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists in the UK and the definition of normal birth or normal delivery is on page 3. As I said, both of my own births have involved assistance in some way. My use of the word normal was in no way competitive - if it were I'd have lost the competition!! It was simply a use of normative terminology around birth - I didn't come up with it.

http://www.rcog.org.uk/files/rcog-corp/uploaded-files/JointStatmentNormalBirth2007.pdf

Perhaps I misread the earlier posts. I initially thought you were saying that drug and drug free births are not both readily avaliable... Which is incorrect...

I also thought your definition provided of a normal birth lacked validity... I haven't had time to read your link (thank you for providing) as it is a good few pages. However, I'm still not sure how a naturally occurring vaginal birth where the mother has relieved some form of pain relief whether it be pethidine, epidural etc... Could not be defined as normal. However, this is not my specialist area so I could well be wrong.

I in no means opposed to GB. I think it's brilliant if that was has worked for some people. And maybe I will go and buy one of the books and have a read. However, I am opposed to people saying there are not options available when there are...

Chattastrophe!

Pachamammy wrote: »

I agree with you. Where do you suggest women go for this information though? And how do you suggest men learn how to support their partners in labour? The hospital classes neither prepare women to question their care or prepare their birth partner to offer support. It would be fantastic if they did.

Actually I found the hospital antenatal classes great, for both me and my boyfriend. All the options were outlined, with the pros and cons of each of them. I very much got the impression that the hospital staff will give their opinions, but the parents make the decisions about their care. I wouldn't feel at all uncomfortable about declining certain procedures or treatments if I didn't want them.

There's LOADS of information available online about pregnancy and birth. I'm not afraid of labour, I'm looking forward to the experience, and I think my boyfriend and I are quite clued in about all the potential outcomes. While I'd like a natural experience, if I need medical intervention or a C Section or whatever else, I'm fine with that too. I don't feel the need to spend hundreds of euro on a course, I can think of lots more important things to spend it on!

Pachamammy

eviltwin wrote: »

Why should they have to pay multiple hundreds of euros to learn it? .

They shouldn't have to - the information should be freely available in their maternity hospital.

People don't have to pay to go semi private or private to have their babies - there is a free service available publicly. There is a free antenatal education programme available in hospitals. Couples who aren't happy with what's included in that can choose to do a private antenatal programme that meets their needs better.

Sligo1

I agree, woman and their birthing partners find out A LOT by attending the antenatal classes and asking questions. My husband learnt how to support me during the process and we both learnt about the different methods of medical and pharmaceutical interventions aswell as the contraindications and possible complications amd side effects of same. They also taught us about the non-pharmaceutical types of pains relief like breathing exercises and TENS etc...

Hello Lady!

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

Actually I found the hospital antenatal classes great, for both me and my boyfriend. All the options were outlined, with the pros and cons of each of them. I very much got the impression that the hospital staff will give their opinions, but the parents make the decisions about their care. I wouldn't feel at all uncomfortable about declining certain procedures or treatments if I didn't want them.

Have to agree, same for me. The only difference is with regards to my husband, but I can't blame the hospital for that as if he had attended all the classes I am sure it would have been different. Because we didn't have the spare cash for weekend classes, and dad's are only entitled to paid time off for 2 classes he didn't get the full benefit of the classes that I got.

So it goes back to the earlier comment about having to either pay for the info or settle for limited info. At the time I didn't think it would matter all that much if dad didn't get to all classes, but with hindsight he should have and taken unpaid leave. But not everyone can afford to do that. More evening or weekend free classes would be brilliant. Either that or a legal entitlement for dad's to attend a whole set of classes.

Pachamammy

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

Actually I found the hospital antenatal classes great, for both me and my boyfriend.

Great to hear! I know, for example, that the midwife teaching the classes in the Coombe is fantastic and really encourages women to become partners in their care.

Sadly, that wasn't my experience in antenatal class where I was laughed at by the midwife when I said I didn't plan on the epidural. Not terribly encouraging!

As regards previous posts regarding interventions being pushed - if you look at bump2babe.ie, the stats on there show the rates of interventions in different maternity units. Episiotomy rates, for example, vary widely.

There is tons of information out there, and it's all readily and easily available through resources like the above. The workshop gives a focus to those who feel that that would be useful to them. It's particularly useful for Dads to know how they can practically help their partners on the day - and they are generally amazing once they feel confident and have a few ideas on how to help reduce pain, such as acupressure and counterpressure etc.

eviltwin

Pachamammy wrote: »

They shouldn't have to - the information should be freely available in their maternity hospital.

People don't have to pay to go semi private or private to have their babies - there is a free service available publicly. There is a free antenatal education programme available in hospitals. Couples who aren't happy with what's included in that can choose to do a private antenatal programme that meets their needs better.

Unfortunately its not, its hard to get any info, harder when you don't know what information you're looking for or what to ask. Most people defer to medical staff because they feel they know best, not everyone knows about hypnobirthing or could afford to do it even if they did. They don't need those who can being dismissive about their experience and telling them it's not normal.

Pachamammy

[QUOTE=Hello Lady!;87827638 More evening or weekend free classes would be brilliant. Either that or a legal entitlement for dad's to attend a whole set of classes.[/QUOTE]

That would be fantastic - it's incredibly unfair that men don't have time off to attend antenatal classes. It's equally important for them..

SanFran07

Chattastrophe! wrote: »

Actually I found the hospital antenatal classes great, for both me and my boyfriend. All the options were outlined, with the pros and cons of each of them. I very much got the impression that the hospital staff will give their opinions, but the parents make the decisions about their care. I wouldn't feel at all uncomfortable about declining certain procedures or treatments if I didn't want them.

There's LOADS of information available online about pregnancy and birth. I'm not afraid of labour, I'm looking forward to the experience, and I think my boyfriend and I are quite clued in about all the potential outcomes. While I'd like a natural experience, if I need medical intervention or a C Section or whatever else, I'm fine with that too. I don't feel the need to spend hundreds of euro on a course, I can think of lots more important things to spend it on!

Sounds like you've hit the jackpot with your antenatal classes. It's great to hear that!

It's really good to hear that the tide is turning in maternity services and couples are being told the pros/cons of breaking your waters on admission especially that it's not medically necessary and creates problems for mums and babies. That food/drink should not be restricted and mum should eat if she's hungry. It's also great to know that the admissions CTG monitoring is now outdated practice and healthy babies are monitored intermittently. I'm really glad that hospitals are also now explaining the risks associated with coached pushing (holding your breath for sustained periods) rather than mother led too and how important delayed cord clamping is for newborns. And no more unnecessary episiotomies - glad we've moved away from 50% perineal surgery for first time mums in some units. No doubt the options of drugs for the 3rd stage is really clear now especially for mums planning on breastfeeding.

Almost all of the routine procedures found in our maternity hospitals (particularly NMH) are on the NICE UK 'Do Not Do' list.

Pachamammy

eviltwin wrote: »

Unfortunately its not, its hard to get any info, harder when you don't know what information you're looking for or what to ask. Most people defer to medical staff because they feel they know best, not everyone knows about hypnobirthing or could afford to do it even if they did. They don't need those who can being dismissive about their experience and telling them it's not normal.

If you feel I was in any way dismissive of any sort of birth, then apologies - and, as I said, my use of the word "normal" was in the sense that it's used in medical circles and neither of my own births were "normal" in that sense - even though they were great. I'll never be using the word again in relation to birth outside of talking to midwives etc, trust me!

I don't value one sort of birth over another - women should be facilitated to have whatever sort of birth they want. It should be all about informed choice. Unfortunately, it's become quite difficult to have a birth without intervention, for those who want one.

I agree that it's incredibly unfair, but threads like this make women aware of information resources such as bump2babe.ie which I already posted. The 42weeks.ie campaign is excellent and has loads of information on informed choice in birth. Cuidiu sometimes run free antenatal education classes - it's worth contacting them about it.

As regards the cost of GentleBirth - there is a positive hospital birth CD available from the site for 15e. There's a private Facebook group where you can get support from other GB mums and information from the instructors, obviously free of charge. We meet up monthly for coffee and obviously the information exchanged there is free. If the full home study programme or workshop are unaffordable, ,then you can still do GentleBirth this way. It doesn't involve the partner in the same way obviously, but partners are very welcome to the meet ups, too. It tends to be mainly mums though, which could be a bit off putting!

SanFran07

eviltwin wrote: »

Unfortunately its not, its hard to get any info, harder when you don't know what information you're looking for or what to ask. Most people defer to medical staff because they feel they know best, not everyone knows about hypnobirthing or could afford to do it even if they did. They don't need those who can being dismissive about their experience and telling them it's not normal.

If Boards.ie would like to have a midwife answer questions about birth practices in Ireland I would be happy to volunteer.

Hello Lady!

Pachamammy wrote: »

That would be fantastic - it's incredibly unfair that men don't have time off to attend antenatal classes. It's equally important for them..

I agree. It's their child too. Plus the worry a lot of men feel and helplessness might be alleviated. My hubby is actually glad I'm in hospital (possibly up to the birth) as he is petrified of coming home and maybe finding meacollapsed or something. He is even worried about getting me to the hospital but feels that once he gets me here he'll be fine because he will no longer be responsible for me on his own.

And let's face it, the more confident and comfortable the men are with supporting us women, I would say results in less chance of complications for Mammy as we all accept that the more relaxed Mammy is the better the labour usually is. And less complicated means less follow up medical care which lessens the stress on the health system and less cost.

So if the money were to be spent on more classes for both parents then it could actually save money for the HSE in the long run.

January

SanFran07 wrote: »

If Boards.ie would like to have a midwife answer questions about birth practices in Ireland I would be happy to volunteer.

I think that would go against our no medical advice rule.

eviltwin

SanFran07 wrote: »

If Boards.ie would like to have a midwife answer questions about birth practices in Ireland I would be happy to volunteer.

It would be great to have a sticky with the things patients should know, my own experience with hospital was that it was hard to get an answer, there was a lot of fobbing off. Now I would go in armed with questions but at the time I just accepted that they did things in the best interest of the patient. My baby days are long over but it might help someone else. Knowledge is power.

pwurple

My own experience was much as hellolady1. Nothing was pushed on me, I requested the exact pain relief I wanted (epi). I refused gas and air, didn't have an forceps or vacuum etc, (although if needed i would have been glad of them rather than have my baby get stuck). I also went to 14 days overdue before going into labour myself. Induction wasn't even mentioned. I consider that birth normal... So does the midwife and doctor on this pregnancy btw, as my previous labour history is listed as 'normal' in my chart.

Managed third stage was explained 3 times to me... At the (free) hospital antenatal class, by the GP (again free on public care) and at the time before I was given the injection for placenta delivery (again, free in a public hospital). I was very clear on what was being offered, and felt that I was being assisted, rather than pressured.

Extra assistance is great. And I have no problem with anyone providing an additional service and getting paid for that. What I really don't like is the idea of telling people there is a secret better way to do things, that is being withheld, where the only way to access it is by paying.

the46gang

Look I as a bloke I knew nothing about hospital interventions when it came to birth until I did the gentlebirth workshop. And now I know most of the interventions don't need to happen at all! Its just presented to you in such a friendly way with 'no pressure' that you just agree to it. Before I would have just blindly trusted the medical profession like a good Irish boy.

Sure read the papers at the moment. It said there recently that cesarean rates were only around 15% in the early 1990s. Now they are 30%. And for first time mothers 40% in some hospitals. What going on here ? Why have they doubled ? Dont believe the hopital spin.

Without attending that workshop whos knows what would have happened to my wife. As a first time mother she would have had a 30-40% chance of a unnecessary cesarean section.

The hospital aint going to tell you that ! Hence the reason for gentlebirth, hypnobirth and all that stuff. Thank god they exists now to give new mothers a better chance to not end up in those god awful c-section statistical rates.

The course is well worth the fee. Best money I ever spent.

Pachamammy

pwurple wrote: »

What I really don't like is the idea of telling people there is a secret better way to do things, that is being withheld, where the only way to access it is by paying.

There is no secret about GentleBirth. It combines positive mental rehearsal, hypnosis for birth and a knowledge of how to navigate the system. The workshop teaches how to use these tools, as well as teaching active birth techniques, like I've said before, and non pharmacological pain relief techniques. It's not anti epidural - it's giving you a few things to use first so that you probably won't need the epidural.

All of this information is on the GentleBirth website, there's no cloak and dagger.

January

Pachamammy wrote: »

There is no secret about GentleBirth. It combines positive mental rehearsal, hypnosis for birth and a knowledge of how to navigate the system. The workshop teaches how to use these tools, as well as teaching active birth techniques, like I've said before, and non pharmacological pain relief techniques. It's not anti epidural - it's giving you a few things to use first so that you probably won't need the epidural.

All of this information is on the GentleBirth website, there's no cloak and dagger.

Yes but to learn these active birth techniques and hypnosis you have to pay for the CD's etc.

Pachamammy

eviltwin wrote: »

It would be great to have a sticky with the things patients should know.

I guess what patients should know is in the eye of the beholder though - I mean, if NMH policy is to break your waters when you get there, even though it's on the NICE do not do list, they are not going to tell you in the antenatal classes all the reasons why they shouldn't do it.

The NICE guidelines and a lot of the other NHS stuff are great resources for pregnant women.