ARW training FFL?

um7y1h83ge06nx

For the record before anyone claims I'm trolling I fully respect everyone in the Defence Forces.

I think the ARW will always draw fiercely different opinions for various reasons:

* They are not going to publicise their exploits so people are not aware of their actions.

* Irish people in general like to talk ourselves down a lot so the Defence Forces often come in for some flak.

* Due to Ireland's limited military spend, some Irish people don't see the DF as a "serious" army.

* The odd time though there are some stories about the ARW that seem a little too unbelievable, which also hurts their image. One current member of the RDF claimed to me recently that the ARW tracked down an Asian paramilitary group and killed 50-60 of their members (I think he mentioned the country being Indonesia). To me that seems a tad too much to keep secret if it was true.

All in all the ARW probably do a fine job and I wouldn't want to send anyone in the Defence Forces off to a serious war-zone just to prove how good they are or aren't.

Deise Musashi

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/IRISH+TROOPS+IN+HOSTAGE+RESCUE%3B+Army+Rangers+swoop+on+rebels.-a0111954801

IRELAND'S elite Army Rangers rescued 35 hostages yesterday in a raid on heavily-armed Liberian rebels - without firing a single shot.

The crack troops, part of the UN Peacekeeping Force, abseiled from helicopters after reports of civilians being raped and tortured by the guerrilla fighters.

The lightning-fast operation involved 40 Army Rangers and was like a scene out of a scene from the war movie Black Hawk Down.

Two war criminals in command of the rogue Government Of Liberia (GOL) militia were captured in the raid.

Defence Forces spokesman Commandant Brian Cleary said: "The Defence Forces Special Operations Task Group detained members of the renegade GOL forces in an operation 300km north east of the Liberian capital Monrovia.

"The patrol, consisting of members of the Army Ranger Wing, was inserted by Mi26 helicopter at 1200hrs on January 6, to Gbapa in the northern sector of Nimba County close to the border with Guinea.

"With high number of civilians involved our troops were keen to avoid casualties with the use of non-lethal force."

The hostages were being held in a shipping container - the latest pawns in this "festering" civil war.

It is believed a force of around 15 rebels were holed up in the area, armed with AK-47 assault rifles and grenades.

Comdt Cleary added: "Locals reported that there were more than 30 people being held against their will by renegade GOL forces near the town of Yekepa. Acting on the intelligence received, the Army Ranger Wing patrol secured the release of 35 male and female captives and detained the commander and deputy leader of the GOL force.

"Other militia fighters are believed to have fled on arrival of Irish troops.

The renegades are currently being held in a local police station which is being secured by the patrol."

Once the area was cleared of enemy forces, the Army Ranger Wing ferried terrified and injured civilians to hospitals.

Comdt Brian Cleary said: "Many of the hostages needed urgent medical assistance as a result of alleged beatings and rapes inflicted upon them while in captivity.

"The Army Ranger Wing had secured the area and medical personnel are providing much-needed aid.

"The operation is ongoing and we expect it to take around 72 hours."

The Army Rangers Wing, Ireland's Special Forces Unit, has already paid a high price for its involvement in Africa.

Sergeant Derek Mooney, 33, was killed in a car crash near Monrovia at the end of lsat November.

In total 400 Irish soldiers will be posted to Liberia during the next few months to keep the peace after 14 years of bloody warfare.

The bulk of the Irish force consists of an infantry battalion from the Western Brigade.

They are backed up by 22 MOWAG armed personnel carriers in the biggest deployment since Irish soldiers were in Lebanon.

Liberia has been locked in conflict since the 1980s but the promise of peace seemed close last year when president Charles Taylor, under international pressure and hemmed in by rebels, went into exile.

However, territorial war lords continue to run riot in many parts of Liberia.

paul.clarkson@irishmirror.ie

International Sniper Competition results 2013

Open Class:

1st: Staff Sgt. Daniel Horner and Spc. Tyler Payne, U. S. Army Marksmanship Unit, Fort Benning.

2nd: A sniper team from Ireland.

3rd: A sniper team from U. S. Army Special Operations Command.

This year's competitors represented the Army, Army National Guard, Army Reserve, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard, Pentagon Defense Police, state and local police departments, and the countries of the United Arab Emirates, Denmark, Sweden, Netherlands, Germany, England and Ireland.

The competition, hosted by the U.S. Army Sniper School, featured 14 events and took place on multiple ranges on post. The events were conducted continuously over a 72-hour period and included sniper stalk, urban shooting and orienteering exercises, firing under stressful conditions, and other tests of marksmanship and sniper skills.

2012

http://www.benning.army.mil/snipercompetition/

Check the results page for the scores Open Class Day One, Two, Three, Defensive Shoot, Dismounted movement....

I can't find it again, but I remember reading at the time that the Irish Team was two lads from ARW, one from Donegal I think?

cruasder777

delta-boy wrote: »

Haha maybe ill never find out but I'll know about how the FFL compare next month

He was obviously telling the truth and I would agree serving in 2 Para would give you far more training and combat experience then serving in the ARW.

Theres an arrogance to some on here claiming the ARW have the same skills set, as the Delta, SBS/SAS, Seals, even the RMs and Parachute Regiment etc.

I think they are mostly likely very good at the set of skills they practice, like hostage rescue, etc, just as some Police swat teams are, but theres alot more to Special Forces ops then that.

With such limited numbers,no combat experience and resources, that's impossible.


And talk of the Wing being deployed in secret ops they cant talk about is bollox, it would be illegal under the triple lock.

IRLConor

cruasder777 wrote: »

And talk of the Wing being deployed in secret ops they cant talk about is bollox, it would be illegal under the triple lock.

While I would be highly sceptical about the ARW being deployed for secret stuff outside the obvious (e.g. stuff prior to overseas deployments of regular troops) you need to remember that the "triple lock" provisions can be ignored for deployments of 12 or fewer people.

I don't think it's likely that the ARW have done anything particularly surprising but it's not impossible. And as for "secret ops they can't talk about", isn't that pretty much all the ops they do?

cruasder777

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

Well now, to assume that they will never be in a **** situation is ridiculous. They have been. Being tasked with locating and rescuing hostages in an unfamiliar territory, resulting in all hostages being located and freed, and capturing the rogue leader without firing a shot. ???? The problem here is twofold.

1. You don't know what you are talking about, and

2. You don't know what you are talking about.

If they are not up to par then why would they be allowed cross train with other SOF units? Why have they been allowed hold important appointments overseas? (Not that you would know that of course)

What do you know of conventional military tactics? They are largely universal, any particular SOP which differs from our own would be easily adaptable In most scenarios.

If you instruct a soldier how to operate a rifle, he will be able to operate any rifle with minimal adaption.

Teach a SOF member explosive demolition, CT work, advanced diving, sniping, parachuting etc....the foundations are the same. Insertions and small unit tactics will not drastically differ. They will be interoperable,

The difference will come down to personal drill and unit cohesion. If you say an ARW member is not as good as a Delta, Ranger, GSG9, GIGN.....that is ridiculous.

If you picked one guy from 6 different SOF units from around the world and put them in a team together with an ARW member and gave them a task.....I'm pretty sure they would get it done.

Irrespective of operational experience,

Are you now trying to say that these guys, who are highly trained, if were given the opportunity....that they couldn't pull it off?

You are a head case!

The Delta are the elite 5% of units like the US army Rangers(who originally trained the Irish army Ranger Wing) and Green Berets, who in themselves are the elite of the US army and Special Forces units in themselves, comparing the Delta force, who are an elite of an elite) skill set level and training to the Wing is absurd.

The Army Ranger Wing have very limited operational experience, never mind combat experience, they were last deployed in 2008, US Special Forces are constantly deployed on combat missions. Its like comparing a guy who trains in the gym and does some shadow boxing to a guy who has had 50 top grade professional fights.







As an example, lets say a ARW member is sent overseas for military combat parachute training (and I doubt most are), how can he maintain doing a minimum number of jumps every year like other SF units soldiers do if Ireland has no aircraft to do military jumps from ? just one example, I'm sure there are hundreds.




Heres an example of their lack of operational experience :


http://www.herald.ie/news/badly-paid-rangers-in-chad-guerillas-encounter-27873357.html



Meanwhile, it has emerged that a group of 30 Rangers were confronted by 200 rebels while patrolling close to the Chad-Darfur border.

The chance encounter took place last week on a patrol which has just been completed in an area east of the village of Ade.

The area is classified by EUFOR as a zone of maximum danger, or "red zone."

Patrol

One source said the rebels "came out of nowhere" after a small group of Rangers drove into a village as the rest of the 30-strong Irish patrol observed from a distance.


.......In a red zone, they drove into a potentially hostile village, only to be surrounded and I have heard from other sources disarmed.


They should have sent in their interpreters to arrange a meeting with the local warlords leaders on neutral ground. Going into that village showed extreme inexperience.......They could have easily been kidnapped.

...Could have been much worse.



The delta as an example would have sent in an interpretor with gifts/aid and a letter seeking a meeting with the leaders, they would never have gone in like that. Warlords are territorial, driving onto their turf armed would be seen as disrespect.

Frosty McSnowballs

All hail Delta!

All hail newspaper articles and sources!

All hail the infallible Cruasder 777, the supreme knowledge of all things military, whose experience and posts can not be denied.

I bow to you good Sir.

Manic Moran

Senor Fancy Pants wrote: »

All hail Delta!

All hail newspaper articles and sources!

All hail the infallible Cruasder 777, the supreme knowledge of all things military, whose experience and posts can not be denied.

I bow to you good Sir.

[MOD]Enough, already. Infraction[/MOD]

In the meantime.

One source said the rebels "came out of nowhere" after a small group of Rangers drove into a village as the rest of the 30-strong Irish patrol observed from a distance.

.......In a red zone, they drove into a potentially hostile village, only to be surrounded and I have heard from other sources disarmed.


They should have sent in their interpreters to arrange a meeting with the local warlords leaders on neutral ground. Going into that village showed extreme inexperience.......They could have easily been kidnapped.

But they weren't. They drove in under overwatch, it's not as if they went in without any support at all. And given the end of the newspaper article, it seems like it was a call which paid off.

The rebels from the Union of Forces for Change and Democracy (UFCD) agreed to speak with them through the Rangers' interpreters.

It was the first time in the EUFOR mission that any of its 3,700 international troops had established contact with one of the rebel groupings.

See?

The delta as an example would have sent in an interpretor with gifts/aid and a letter seeking a meeting with the leaders, they would never have gone in like that. Warlords are territorial, driving onto their turf armed would be seen as disrespect.

You have some reason for this understanding of a Delta course of action? Any time we wanted to chat with someone, we went ourselves. Why put a third party under any greater risk by sending him in alone as a representative of an enemy/potential enemy? Who's to say the other side will leave him be?

cruasder777

They had a lucky day, they drove into a hostile village and got surrounded by 200 hostile armed Islamists, which they had not expected......they were not in control of the situation.


You are part of an armoured unit, they were in modified Ford 4x4 pick up trucks, with very limited air cover.

Other reports stated at the time they got disarmed.

Its not the SOP of SF units, firstly they should have established the intel. to know the threat in that village. Sending in locals you have recruited as interpreters with gifts, medical supplies to establish communication is standard SF SOP in similar situations.


The Royal Irish made a similar error in 2000 and got taken hostage.



"Operation Barras was a British Army operation that took place in Sierra Leone on 10 September 2000. The operation aimed to release five British soldiers of the Royal Irish Regiment who had been held by a militia group known as the "West Side Boys". The soldiers were part of a patrol that was returning from a visit to Jordanian peacekeepers attached to the United Nations Mission in Sierra Leone (UNAMSIL) at Masiaka on 25 August 2000 when they turned off the main road and down a track towards the village of Magbeni. There the patrol was overwhelmed by a large number of heavily armed rebels, taken prisoner, and transported to Gberi Bana on the opposite side of Rokel Creek."

goldie fish

cruasder777 wrote: »

They had a lucky day, they drove into a hostile village and got surrounded by 200 hostile armed Islamists, which they had not expected......they were not in control of the situation.


You are part of an armoured unit, they were in modified Ford 4x4 pick up trucks, with very limited air cover.

Other reports stated at the time they got disarmed.

Have you links to these reports at all?

Manic Moran

cruasder777 wrote: »

They had a lucky day, they drove into a hostile village and got surrounded by 200 hostile armed Islamists, which they had not expected......they were not in control of the situation.

What would have been control?

You are part of an armoured unit, they were in modified Ford 4x4 pick up trucks, with very limited air cover.

Only on the first run. In Afghanistan I walked with 8 men into towns that vehicles could not get to. To include into contact.

Its not the SOP of SF units, firstly they should have established the intel. to know the threat in that village. Sending in locals you have recruited as interpreters with gifts, medical supplies to establish communication is standard SF SOP in similar situations.

Often the best intel you're going to get is by going into the village. I don't know about Chad, but sending an interpreter, with gifts or without, would have been a damned good way of getting him killed in Iraq. Afghanistan would have been a toss-up.

May I inquire which SF SOP you are drawing from?

cruasder777

I am not talking about Iraq or Afghanistan, obviously SOPs change in different zones, it was a UN op in Chad, going into a village with 200 potentially hostile warlords/Islamists in a soft skinned vehicle was foolish.

It would have been better to have waited outside and sent in an interpreter to arrange a meeting, as it was reports at the time stated they had to talk their way out of a dangerous situation and hand cameras and sunglasses over as a good will gesture, thats what reports at the time said.

SOPs as taught to the PF Platoon, SAS Mobility troop etc. In control, maintaining the initiative, controlling the environment.

goldie fish

cruasder777 wrote: »

I am not talking about Iraq or Afghanistan, obviously SOPs change in different zones, it was a UN op in Chad, going into a village with 200 potentially hostile warlords/Islamists in a soft skinned vehicle was foolish.

It would have been better to have waited outside and sent in an interpreter to arrange a meeting, as it was reports at the time stated they had to talk their way out of a dangerous situation and hand cameras and sunglasses over as a good will gesture, thats what reports at the time said.

SOPs as taught to the PF Platoon. In control is maintaining the initiative, controlling the environment.

Have you links to any of these reports?

cruasder777

I have searched cant find them on the net anymore.

Manic Moran

cruasder777 wrote: »

I am not talking about Iraq or Afghanistan, obviously SOPs change in different zones, it was a UN op in Chad, going into a village with 200 potentially hostile warlords/Islamists in a soft skinned vehicle was foolish.

It would have been better to have waited outside and sent in an interpreter to arrange a meeting, as it was reports at the time stated they had to talk their way out of a dangerous situation and hand cameras and sunglasses over as a good will gesture, thats what reports at the time said.

SOPs as taught to the PF Platoon, SAS Mobility troop etc. In control, maintaining the initiative, controlling the environment.

The question still stands as to from where you are referencing this alleged "Let's send an interpreter as an emissary" SOP for SF.

Lemming

cruasder777 wrote: »

I have searched cant find them on the net anymore.

How long ago was it that you recall reading all of these reports published online?

folbotcar

It seems you can't have a sensible discussion about the ARW without some intervention from the Mittyites on one side and the knockers on the other hand both ignoring those on the middle ground.

The reality is that outside of certain circles no one really knows for certain what roles and missions the ARW are used for. You can of course safely say their experience would not generally be on a par with certain other nations, notably the British and Americans. But I wonder if there is a similar debate on say (randomly) the Danish or Belgian equivalent of Boards? I doubt it and both those countries are NATO members with no pretence of neutrality.

The reality is that the ARW most likely trains for and occasionally carries out all the traditional SF roles. As it happens I found evidence of this once on a visit to a former army barracks. Red and blue paint on the walls and spent 9mm cases and smoke/stun grenade handle scattered around. It didn't take much working out what had gone on. One room upstairs was clearly where the bad guys got their comeuppance. I also came across a document marked ARW which described an exercise which might surprise some people. I took it away and got rid of it by the way.

Clearly ARW members are going to be sent overseas from time to time in covert roles. Close protection being an example. But the likelihood of a wholly ARW team being mobilised and then dropped into hostile territory in the dead of night would be slim. Most of the missions would be far more prosaic. Hence the regret expressed by Deravarra's alleged friend in work. The reality is that the average soldier in a work a day county regiment in the British army would have more combat experience than the average ARW member no matter how well trained they are. That's the simple truth, no disrespect meant.

I do think that the relative lack of combat experience in the Irish army as a whole is in part the reason it's held in such low esteem by certain quarters. For the most part the public's main point of contact with the army is to see soldiers on duty outside a bank on some dull county town main street. It's not that hard to contrast that with the scenes of US or British troops getting shot at somewhere dangerous.

The simple facts are that the ARW are trained for a role to but for the most part they never get to carry out. Ridiculous and unrealistic comparisons with other forces are unfair.