Teachers and unrurly pupils.

.jacksparrow.

Anyone any insight into how hard teachers have it nowadays with little scrotes in secondary school?

I can only imagine it ain't easy, back in my day when everything was in black and white, there was some serious little troublemakers, I presume things are a lot worst seems they seem to have bred at a faster rate since then.

Edit-unruly.

gramar

It takes a fair amount of balls to put yourself in front of 25-30 teenagers for 6 or 7 hours a day.

I'd say things have definitely gotten worse since I was in secondary school about 20 years ago. The students are bigger bastards than ever and the teachers have less liberty to deal with troublesome students and are probably afraid to do much anyway as students and parents report things that wouldn't have raised an eyebrow a few years ago.

Balmed Out

A big difference is 20 years ago a teacher calls in parents about a pupil underachieving or misbehaving and the parents would give out to the child, now days the parents will give out to the teacher. Seems to be more so the less the parents actually see the children.

Other problem is before all the kids were of one culture and spoke English fluently. Now days one class room in any urban centre or small town with a refugee centre and you may have several different european and african nationalities many of whom with little English. We had been quite well set up to deal with this but with recent cutbacks less so apparently.

dodderangler

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Anyone any insight into how hard teachers have it.

Well the amount of female teachers having sex with students I reckon they do ok

.jacksparrow.

Wonder would something like cameras in the classroom work, I mean there everywhere we go now so what's the difference.

3 strikes and you're out of the school, what's the point in wasting time and effort on pupils who don't want to learn and are only holding other pupils back from their goals.

Grayson

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Edit-unruly.

No Pants

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Wonder would something like cameras in the classroom work, I mean there everywhere we go now so what's the difference.

3 strikes and you're out of the school, what's the point in wasting time and effort on pupils who don't want to learn and are only holding other pupils back from their goals.

Cameras won't solve the problem as that particular problem doesn't exist. It's the available sanctions that need work.

Frank Black

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Anyone any insight into how hard teachers have it nowadays

Yeah.
The short working week.
High rates of pay.
Job for life
Gold-plated pensions.
3 months holidays.

My heart bleeds.

Grayson

Frank Black wrote: »

Yeah.
The short working week.
High rates of pay.
Job for life
Gold-plated pensions.
3 months holidays.

My heart bleeds.

I've heard horror stories from people in dodgy schools in Limerick. that's a hellish job. But on the other side I went to a little primary school where the curriculum was the same every year. Those are two different jobs. i think in the hell hole they deserve to be paid well and probably need 3 months holidays but in the tiny primary school they are grossly over paid. The same goes for most teachers.
hell, i don't think teachers should even be sent to those horrible schools. they're not trained or equipped for it. It's like asking a paramedic to perform surgery.

No Pants

If you think teachers are expensive, just get someone else to look after your kids 5 days a week and educate them.

Frank Black

No Pants wrote: »

If you think teachers are expensive, just get someone else to look after your kids 5 days a week and educate them.

Because that's how rates of pay should be calculated people.
:rolleyes:

dazed+confused

I thought that schools had become unruly nightmares, a world apart form "my day". However I went back to my secondary school to teach a course and i was pleasantly surprised by what I found.

Yes the teachers are definitely stricter than the were and the discpline seems to be a bit more pro-active but the students are well behaved and mannerly. That doesn't make for a good whinge though, so I'm going to be contradicted.

People like bashing the generation below them. They have it too easy, we had to work for what we had....

No Pants

Frank Black wrote: »

Because that's how rates of pay should be calculated people.
:rolleyes:

It's one way that it could be calculated. Not a very good way as there's no economy of scale. My point is that a teacher performs multiple roles that themselves are not normally cheap.

I'm not a teacher, my wife is not a teacher and I don't have any kids. I don't care how much teachers are paid, it's not enough to tempt me into doing it. Not because of the kids themselves, I just couldn't be bothered dealing with parents.

Banjo String

There was a cross eyed teacher in our local school.


Apparently she couldn't control her pupils.

Muff Richardson

Frank Black wrote: »

Yeah.
The short working week.
High rates of pay.
Job for life
Gold-plated pensions.
3 months holidays.

My heart bleeds.

YAWN

did you come up with this extremely relevant point to the topic all on your own or did you have to search and choose from the other thousands of posts/threads that has the word "teacher" in it?

well done...

keano25

Frank Black wrote: »

Yeah.
The short working week.
High rates of pay.
Job for life
Gold-plated pensions.
3 months holidays.

My heart bleeds.

Brace yourself

martinedwards

Frank Black wrote: »

Yeah.
The short working week.
High rates of pay.
Job for life
Gold-plated pensions.
3 months holidays.

My heart bleeds.

that's original.

and far from accurate.

schools vary hugely. and all have their own stresses. Some have a load of evil scrotes whose parents think the sun sines out of them and they can do no wrong. they leave school with nothing but anger and hatred.

some have loads of highly motivated hard working students whose parents come down on the teacher like a ton of bricks because there isn't enough 2 hour homeworks being set.

addressing your points.....

short working week does not include the preparation and marking. My Mrs was marking til 1am this morning. that's not a short week in anyones book

High rates of pay? OK, not TOO bad, 40k for a 60 hour week graduate. better than some, but a lot less than others.

Job for life? utter crap. in my area the population is falling and there are fewer kids in the system. guess what, they need fewer teachers. the school I taught in had 8 redundancies in the last 5 years.

Gold plated pensions? well, final salary pensions. like a load of other jobs.

3 months holidays.

OOOOOOHHH yes!!

SEPT 23 1989

Its all about control and respect in the classroom,we messed a good bit in school but there were some teachers you knew not to step out of line with

Czarcasm

To save me the bother of copying and pasting my posts, that address exactly the same points that have been brought up again in this thread -

Last weeks teacher bashing thread.

Gerry T

martinedwards wrote: »

that's original.

and far from accurate.

schools vary hugely. and all have their own stresses. Some have a load of evil scrotes whose parents think the sun sines out of them and they can do no wrong. they leave school with nothing but anger and hatred.

some have loads of highly motivated hard working students whose parents come down on the teacher like a ton of bricks because there isn't enough 2 hour homeworks being set.

addressing your points.....

short working week does not include the preparation and marking. My Mrs was marking til 1am this morning. that's not a short week in anyones book

High rates of pay? OK, not TOO bad, 40k for a 60 hour week graduate. better than some, but a lot less than others.

Job for life? utter crap. in my area the population is falling and there are fewer kids in the system. guess what, they need fewer teachers. the school I taught in had 8 redundancies in the last 5 years.

Gold plated pensions? well, final salary pensions. like a load of other jobs.

3 months holidays.

OOOOOOHHH yes!!

Dealing with young children is tough, I manage a young soccer team-it can be hair pulling at times. Told parents that messer's would be put to the side so others could get on with things--parents reaction wasn't great so that idea was abandoned. At 40k I think teachers do deserve that, even 50k would be fair. Only gripe would be the time taken during term for "in planning" or "teachers" meetings. That could easily be done the last day of each holiday. Plus teachers should have SMART goals, they should be able to show how they have a study plan for children struggling and how they are able to work around these difficulties. If a teacher isn't very good then they shouldn't get pay rises, simple as that.
But what about 3rd level lecturers ? can't they earn up to 90k a yr, have max 16 hrs contact a week, some as little as 4hrs a week with "research" taking up alot of time ? that to me is 2 much for that type of job.

Other than that gripe I think its very unfair to bash teachers as much as they do get bashed on threads here.

gramar

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Its all about control and respect in the classroom,we messed a good bit in school but there were some teachers you knew not to step out of line with

In every school there were teachers that commanded silence and respect from the moment you walked into their classroom. Others who let you have a bit of fun but who could get you quiet and working when it was time to do so and others who couldn't keep order in a morgue.

emmabrighton

gramar wrote: »

In every school there were teachers that commanded silence and respect from the moment you walked into their classroom. Others who let you have a bit of fun but who could get you quiet and working when it was time to do so and others who couldn't keep order in a morgue.

Very witty good Sir! My hat's off to you...

Boombastic

in fairness, in many schools the classrooms are not packed full of wild animals. School management and expectations have a lot to do with it, and parents attitudes of course, as well as the teachers skill

Czarcasm

gramar wrote: »

In every school there were teachers that commanded silence and respect from the moment you walked into their classroom. Others who let you have a bit of fun but who could get you quiet and working when it was time to do so and others who couldn't keep order in a morgue.

What an expression! :pac:

No Pants

gramar wrote: »

In every school there were teachers that commanded silence and respect from the moment you walked into their classroom. Others who let you have a bit of fun but who could get you quiet and working when it was time to do so and others who couldn't keep order in a morgue.

I had a teacher once who would pick up whatever was close to hand and throw it at the source of any disruption. Mostly it would be chalk, but occasionally it would be a duster or maybe a mallet (it was a practical room). Once it was a wood chisel.

He was highly motivating and a great teacher, but can you imagine the ****storm this would cause nowadays?

gramar

No Pants wrote: »

I had a teacher once who would pick up whatever was close to hand and throw it at the source of any disruption. Mostly it would be chalk, but occasionally it would be a duster or maybe a mallet (it was a practical room). Once it was a wood chisel.

He was highly motivating and a great teacher, but can you imagine the ****storm this would cause nowadays?

I was in technical drawing one day and we had to draw circles and the like. While everyone else had one of those fancy compasses with the wheel in the middle to adjust the diameter I had one of those ****ty basic ones that was really loose so drawing a perfect circle was nearly impossible as it slid all over the place. The teacher (may he rest in peace) saw my dreadful effort picked up my ****ty compass and drew a perfect circle and then jabbed me in the hand with it before leaving it on the desk and heading off for a fag. He drew blood and all!

kristian12

As a former teacher both in the UK and here, teaching both Primary and Secondary in both i often hear the old "short week high pay long holiday" argument. Well I never ruled my classroom with an iron rod and was quite proud when a group of primary school kids i'd taught went into Secondary with my son and said i was a "sound teacher but i made them work". Respect in the classroom isn't always about shouting and punishing but more about talking and pushing the students.

My working day started at 8.30 on the days i didn't have yard duty in the mornings and finished on a good day at 9pm, because as a teacher you don't just role up at 9am and walk out at 3pm. Somebody has to make sure the work is prepared for the next day/week, somebody has to mark the work, somebody has records to keep on the students progress and it sure as hell isn't the dinner lady that does all this

Pay varies and is subjective to what we think is a good wage, €40,000 a year sounds great until you take the tax out of it but even without the tax it equates to €760 a week for an average 50hr week for a decent teacher so not bad but not really worth the earache when we tell the parents your little angel is a demon child and they say oh no not our precious one she wouldn't do that :rolleyes:

Oh and don't forget the holidays yeah they are great, think thats why i spent 4 years at uni

Gerry T

gramar wrote: »

I was in technical drawing one day and we had to draw circles and the like. While everyone else had one of those fancy compasses with the wheel in the middle to adjust the diameter I had one of those ****ty basic ones that was really loose so drawing a perfect circle was nearly impossible as it slid all over the place. The teacher (may he rest in peace) saw my dreadful effort picked up my ****ty compass and drew a perfect circle and then jabbed me in the hand with it before leaving it on the desk and heading off for a fag. He drew blood and all!

But did you learn how to draw a circle with the ****ty compass

deadeye187

The standard of teaching I have seen is shocking!....The job should be performance based!

No if my kid is unrurly and the teacher said anything out of line to them, I would go to that teacher and use my fists to make dust of their teeth!

Czarcasm

kristian12 wrote: »

...

My working day started at 8.30 on the days i didn't have yard duty in the mornings and finished on a good day at 9pm, because as a teacher you don't just role up at 9am and walk out at 3pm. Somebody has to make sure the work is prepared for the next day/week, somebody has to mark the work, somebody has records to keep on the students progress and it sure as hell isn't the dinner lady that does all this

...

Oh and don't forget the holidays yeah they are great, think thats why i spent 4 years at uni

Ahh jesus!

Boombastic

kristian12 wrote: »

As a former teacher both in the UK and here, teaching both Primary and Secondary in both i often hear the old "short week high pay long holiday" argument. Well I never ruled my classroom with an iron rod and was quite proud when a group of primary school kids i'd taught went into Secondary with my son and said i was a "sound teacher but i made them work". Respect in the classroom isn't always about shouting and punishing but more about talking and pushing the students.

My working day started at 8.30 on the days i didn't have yard duty in the mornings and finished on a good day at 9pm, because as a teacher you don't just role up at 9am and walk out at 3pm. Somebody has to make sure the work is prepared for the next day/week, somebody has to mark the work, somebody has records to keep on the students progress and it sure as hell isn't the dinner lady that does all this

Pay varies and is subjective to what we think is a good wage, €40,000 a year sounds great until you take the tax out of it but even without the tax it equates to €760 a week for an average 50hr week for a decent teacher so not bad but not really worth the earache when we tell the parents your little angel is a demon child and they say oh no not our precious one she wouldn't do that :rolleyes:

Oh and don't forget the holidays yeah they are great, think thats why i spent 4 years at uni

did you include the holidays when working out your average weekly hours? Calculations seem a little off because you've only included the holidays in one side of the equation



D-

Grayson

Gerry T wrote: »

Dealing with young children is tough, I manage a young soccer team-it can be hair pulling at times. Told parents that messer's would be put to the side so others could get on with things--parents reaction wasn't great so that idea was abandoned. At 40k I think teachers do deserve that, even 50k would be fair. Only gripe would be the time taken during term for "in planning" or "teachers" meetings. That could easily be done the last day of each holiday. Plus teachers should have SMART goals, they should be able to show how they have a study plan for children struggling and how they are able to work around these difficulties. If a teacher isn't very good then they shouldn't get pay rises, simple as that.
But what about 3rd level lecturers ? can't they earn up to 90k a yr, have max 16 hrs contact a week, some as little as 4hrs a week with "research" taking up alot of time ? that to me is 2 much for that type of job.

Other than that gripe I think its very unfair to bash teachers as much as they do get bashed on threads here.

3rd level lectures generally have PhD's They will have worked about 8 years to get that qualification. And 4-5 of them will be post graduate work. Most teachers have 1 year post graduate work. Thanks to cutbacks most lecturers will actually be correcting their students essays whereas 10 years ago they had postgrads do it for them. (Edit: btw, starting grade as a junior lecturer is 39k a year)

I think what pisses me off the most about teachers getting paid so much is that there's no real oversight. We hear that they have to spend most of the summer preparing for the new year. if that's the case, they should be going into work. They should clock in and be able to account for their time. The same goes for after class work. If they need to do it, they should stay in work. they should account for their time.

Can you imagine one profession where you get paid for hours without actually having to account for them? Doctors have to account for their time in a hospital as do nurses. police, firemen ambulance drivers etc... all get paid for the hours that they work and can prove they work. And if a doctor needs to get upskilled, they do it in their own time. they don't claim extra holidays every summer that they need for it and then maybe decide if they'll do it. Teachers are the only ones who get away with just saying it.

gramar

Gerry T wrote: »

But did you learn how to draw a circle with the ****ty compass

Did I fcuk!

kristian12

kristian12 wrote: »

Oh and don't forget the holidays yeah they are great, think thats why i spent 4 years at uni

I was only joking :rolleyes:

the_syco

Balmed Out wrote: »

Other problem is before all the kids were of one culture and spoke English fluently. Now days one class room in any urban centre or small town with a refugee centre and you may have several different european and african nationalities many of whom with little English.

FYP:

Balmed Out wrote: »

Other problem is before all the kids were of one culture and spoke English fluently. Now days one class room in any urban centre or small town may have several different Dublin estates, many of whom with little English.

piplin

Teachers have it handier these days than they ever had it.

kristian12

Boombastic wrote: »

did you include the holidays when working out your average weekly hours? Calculations seem a little off because you've only included the holidays in one side of the equation



D-

Do you not get holiday pay in your job? Its a salaried position which means it's averaged out over the year. As i said its not bad pay at all and most teachers would agree the plus side to working only 167/183 days per year far outweighs any downside. I think there will always be an ongoing argument about how easy teachers have it.

Boombastic

piplin wrote: »

Teachers have it handier these days they ever had it.

all the exams are dumbed down aswell, so lower standards required

Gerry T

Grayson wrote: »

3rd level lectures generally have PhD's They will have worked about 8 years to get that qualification. And 4-5 of them will be post graduate work. Most teachers have 1 year post graduate work. Thanks to cutbacks most lecturers will actually be correcting their students essays whereas 10 years ago they had postgrads do it for them. (Edit: btw, starting grade as a junior lecturer is 39k a year)

I think what pisses me off the most about teachers getting paid so much is that there's no real oversight. We hear that they have to spend most of the summer preparing for the new year. if that's the case, they should be going into work. They should clock in and be able to account for their time. The same goes for after class work. If they need to do it, they should stay in work. they should account for their time.

Can you imagine one profession where you get paid for hours without actually having to account for them? Doctors have to account for their time in a hospital as do nurses. police, firemen ambulance drivers etc... all get paid for the hours that they work and can prove they work. And if a doctor needs to get upskilled, they do it in their own time. they don't claim extra holidays every summer that they need for it and then maybe decide if they'll do it. Teachers are the only ones who get away with just saying it.

I'm not getting at teachers/lecturers, I think the Job is hard. €40 to €50k sounds fair for a teacher and possibly up to €70k for a good lecturer is fair. Yes the €90k posts are probably shutting down, I know 3 at that level. One lecturer in UCD and two in DIT, all lecturing at degree level. Two got PHD's late in life, the other is still at degree education himself. Not that any of that really affects their teaching abilities. I wouldn't disregard a lecturer with only a degree himself. If they can at minimum know the course material & have an ability to explain & impart knowledge. Maybe foster a self learning & questioning attitude IMO they don't need a PHD.
As for unruly pupils, is it really a teacher/lecturers job to deal with these kids. Is it not more the parents responsibility ? why should a teacher spend time trying to deal with this, the other students in the class suffer. Should parents be brought more into the solution to change children's/pupils behaviour. Should we expect teachers to be "teachers" and also managing the group dynamics. Parents I think should br brought more into the solution for unruly children.

chopper6

Boombastic wrote: »

all the exams are dumbed down aswell, so lower standards required

Just as well because kids are thicker than they used to be.

Czarcasm

chopper6 wrote: »

Just as well because kids are thicker than they used to be.

Absolutely, there's not that same hollow sound when you thump them, now it's more of a dull sound

piplin

Teaching is a vocation, maybe some here should look that word up in the dictionary. I would hazard a guess that less than 5 % of secondary school teachers today have this vocation. Inept, incompetent disinterested freeloaders. It's a pity really.

Mint Aero

I've a few mates working the roughest of the rough schools. They're rough I tells ya. They love it! if they don't think of themselves as something out of a Hollywood filum, they sit back and get a good chuckle at the "pupils" carry on.

They love their jobs. Do be texting all day. Lovely hours for gymming and sport and other things. I'm envious.

chopper6

piplin wrote: »

Teaching is a vocation, maybe some here should look that word up in the dictionary. I would hazard a guess that less than 5 % of secondary school teachers today have this vocation. Inept, incompetent disinterested freeloaders. It's a pity really.

Is this an educated guess or just some nonsense you made up?

Do you have children? I bet you don't.

.jacksparrow.

No Pants wrote: »

I had a teacher once who would pick up whatever was close to hand and throw it at the source of any disruption. Mostly it would be chalk, but occasionally it would be a duster or maybe a mallet (it was a practical room). Once it was a wood chisel.

He was highly motivating and a great teacher, but can you imagine the ****storm this would cause nowadays?

Woodie!?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

If it's that easy and and that overpaid, why don't we just get the first few thousand unemployed people who aren't on the sex-offenders register to do it? For feck's sake you could turn it into a jobbridge and save millions.

Boombastic

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

If it's that easy and and that overpaid, why don't we just get the first few thousand unemployed people who aren't on the sex-offenders register to do it? For feck's sake you could turn it into a jobbridge and save millions.

a good percentage of that thousands would be trained teachers...ironically enough

lertsnim

I have no idea how secondary teachers can do it. I think back to how it was when I was in secondary school (20 years ago) and cringe for them as I imagine students are worse now.

chopper6

Boombastic wrote: »

a good percentage of that thousands would be trained teachers...ironically enough

And for that you can blame the Govt for the moratorium on public sector recruitment.

the same goes for nurses,anybody qualifying in the next few years will be buggering off to Saudi or the middle east.

Boombastic

kristian12 wrote: »

Do you not get holiday pay in your job? Its a salaried position which means it's averaged out over the year. As i said its not bad pay at all and most teachers would agree the plus side to working only 167/183 days per year far outweighs any downside. I think there will always be an ongoing argument about how easy teachers have it.

It was the averaging of the hours side of the equation that didn't include holidays, nothing to do with pay.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Boombastic wrote: »

a good percentage of that thousands would be trained teachers...ironically enough

Trained? "Trained"...? Who give a **** about training...? Day one, how to open a door. Day two, get the **** in there or you lose your benefit.

Seriously - everyone wins! Well, apart from the kids, yeah, but I guarantee there's be no problem now or at any point in the next twenty to thirt years or so.