Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Entitlement Culture killing the will to work in Ireland
Options
Comments
-
Lambsbread wrote: »There does need to be some unfavourable decisions taken by the government to protect the middle classes, but no one in politics seems willing.
Cause it'd be political suicide, and at the end of the day all the gutless wonders aren't actually in it to make the country better, they're there because they consider 'politician' to be a career choice.0 -
Which attitude again proves my point.
You do realise, I hope, that the "JS" acronyms JSA and JSB refer to "Job Seekers"? ie it is supposed to assist or benefit people seeking a job. It is not designed to support people who refuse to work until said work will fund an expensive car.
These people should be removed from the live register.
Yes but if you have a minimum wage job, with the cost of petrol and childcare, what is the incentive? Seriously, you couldn't even afford the childcare on a minimum wage job.0 -
clairefontaine wrote: »Yes but if you have a minimum wage job, with the cost of petrol and childcare, what is the incentive? Seriously, you couldn't even afford the childcare on a minimum wage job.
So how do you solve the problem?
A higher minimum wage won't create jobs.0 -
So how do you solve the problem?
A higher minimum wage won't create jobs.
Actually I think a higher minimum wage is likely to kill off quite a few small business that are currently just managing to keep the heads above water.
Thereby costing jobs rather than creating them.
I could be wrong though, it's been known to happen from time to time.0 -
-
Advertisement
-
clairefontaine wrote: »Lower taxes at the pump, lower motor tax, and de regulate childcare. Also jobs ridge needs to be looked at again. Way too many employers not hiring because they are getting free labor.
Is childcare not already deregulated? Not sure I follow?0 -
Is childcare not already deregulated? Not sure I follow?
No I don't think so. Like if someone wants to mind a bunch of kids, it has to go through all the hoopla a small business does.
I know in the US people hire illegal immigrants for nannies, because they are cheap.
Also thoug family courts have to get tougher in these e60 a week child maintenance payments. That is no where near half the cost of a child and childcare, so the court system and the social welfare system are not helping.0 -
clairefontaine wrote: »Lower taxes at the pump, lower motor tax, and de regulate childcare. Also jobs ridge needs to be looked at again. Way too many employers not hiring because they are getting free labor.
Spot on. A lot of providers of services that rely solely on other peoples' wealth need to take a serious pay cut. Especially insurance, taxation and legal services providers.0 -
cut child benefit to virtually nothing and with the savings, use it for uniforms, books, possibly school meals, more teachers, SNA'S etc and then the balance for free childcare for WORKING parents... Also introduce a financial reward for successful welfare reward tip offs...0
-
-
Advertisement
-
There’s an inextricable link between welfare spending and the deficit. Our current level of spending is affordable only through higher and higher taxes today and, when that’s not enough, borrowing on the strength of yet more taxes tomorrow. This is simply a confiscation of the earnings and savings of working people to those on welfare.
Whether those on welfare are in that position by choice or through dint of circumstance (like losing their jobs) is another matter. But posts of this thread and my own experience show that many "BY Choice" welfare beneficiaries have as good as or better lifestyles than those enjoyed by the working population financing them.
In my view, the pendulum has swung too far against the interests of working people (supposedly supported by Labour in Government) and too much in favour of those who choose to make welfare a permanent way of life.
Here’s an excerpt and link to an interesting article by Alan Greenspan from way back in 1966 on The Gold standard & deficit spending:
“The financial policy of the welfare state requires that there be no way for the owners of wealth to protect themselves.
This is the shabby secret of the welfare statists' tirades against gold. Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the confiscation of wealth”.
http://www.constitution.org/mon/greenspan_gold.htm0 -
A sense of entitlement is not confined to the welfare classes
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/wife-of-mcfeelys-former-business-partner-wins-living-expenses-of-9000-a-month-29752344.html0 -
Sheldons Brain wrote: »A sense of entitlement is not confined to the welfare classes
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/wife-of-mcfeelys-former-business-partner-wins-living-expenses-of-9000-a-month-29752344.html
Was listening to VinnyB last night ..how the hell can someone get this after being declared bankrupt..Only in this country..I would be one for looking for cuts on ps pay/pensions and social welfare but when you see the elite being paid 9k (thats tax payers money) a month so they can stay in D4 and their kids can remain going to their posh private schools , I cant blame those hanging on in society scoffing at cuts..
Once again this shows that the middle income working class Ireland are the wedge between rediculous laws made to cosy the rich and loony lefty policies that sees some people on the dole have a better standard of living to some that are working..
Where will this madness end0 -
Sheldons Brain wrote: »A sense of entitlement is not confined to the welfare classes
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/wife-of-mcfeelys-former-business-partner-wins-living-expenses-of-9000-a-month-29752344.html
If you were a private sector employee, paying taxes, to get €9,000 a month nett you would need to be earning €193,300 a year, or an hourly rate of €110.
There are 4 bed houses in the D4 area available to rent for €2500 a month. The €1644 in school fees also includes "extra curricular activities" - maybe those could be scaled back, like everyone else has to.
As per my figures further up, €400 a month would suffice for monthly car expenses (half what she's looking for). Get rid of the golfing sub. There's €2,000 a month savings for them right there. Does Judge Bermingham not have access to daft.ie, or a calculator?0 -
Farmer Pudsey wrote: »Since 2008 the country has too an Ostrich like approach to this issue. The reality is that the cost of going to work for a couple with two kids is in the region of 10K/year this is in after tax income. They need to earn at least 15K in income to cover that alone.
This leads to a scenario where you have a situation that if either is jobless then both are better unless the one with the job is earning 50K+ a year and that is to break even. Our tax system is penal for a person earning over 35K. We have an effective top rate of 52% between TAX, PRSI and USC. When you look at it long term and add in the benefit of third level grants, the level of wages to sustain a working family is enormous.
The state has developed a welfare system that has killed the incentive to work. Low wage employment completes with Social Welfare this makes it impossible to develop any production work in Ireland.
Yet the government still thinks that it should tax child benefit and top it up to welfare recipients. That we should have a basic OAP and means test a top up for ''the vunerable''. It imagines that we can raise taxes and costs on employee's and employer's.
They tax the hell out of working people and out of the things that you use to work and how you get to work and also the savings you get from work and the housing that you pay for from work.
It's effectively a type of Communism when you include the internship schemes where they 'strongly encourage' graduates to work in private companies and pay the salary for the company. Of course this salary is actually paid for by the taxpayer.
What with Burton's comments that social welfare is economic stimulus..yes I think Communism with Irish characteristics is an apt description.
The state interferes too much and this is what happens. Unless the state has got it's priorities right (encourage people to earn their own money through their own efforts and keep the majority of the rewards of their own labour and skills) then you are screwed.
Then they go on about the 'the vulnerable' who are actually the 'the privileged'. The champagne socialists who sit at the top of this charade will leave their office chuffed with themselves and their nice salaries and pensions.0 -
cut the funding for long term wasters to absolute subsistence, cut child benefit massively, use the savings for no more school costs i.e uniforms, books etc, free childcare for WORKING parents, more teachers and SNA's & lower the rates of PAYE, PRSI, USC etc, its very simple...
Hire a private company to investigate and detect welfare fraud, give them a % of the savings, watch the €€€'s flow in. Also like I have mentioned before a financial reward for successful tips off's and financial penalty of a multiples of the benefits fraud...0 -
If you were a private sector employee, paying taxes, to get €9,000 a month nett you would need to be earning €193,300 a year, or an hourly rate of €110.
There are 4 bed houses in the D4 area available to rent for €2500 a month. The €1644 in school fees also includes "extra curricular activities" - maybe those could be scaled back, like everyone else has to.
As per my figures further up, €400 a month would suffice for monthly car expenses (half what she's looking for). Get rid of the golfing sub. There's €2,000 a month savings for them right there. Does Judge Bermingham not have access to daft.ie, or a calculator?
This is a disgrace it show how out of touch judges are with reality. 9K a year is equivlent to 108K/year or over 2K/week. This is living expenses so not taxed. The reality is this man was involved in building shoddy apartments.0 -
David Cameron’s welfare reform is demonstrating that lots can be done about the UK’s out of control welfare spending and the welfare disincentive to work. All it takes is the “welfare cap” (of around £500/week, including child and housing benefits), plus, of course, the courage to implement it: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/9354163/David-Camerons-welfare-speech-in-full.html
How much more difficult can it be to implement something similar in Ireland, before the whole country is dragged down into the gutter by the current misguided policy, resulting in welfare as a legitimate career choice, financed by unaffordable taxes and borrowings?
Granted, Fine Gael, are in coalition with socialist Labour but, if Cameron can do it, why not FG? It certainly gives his party a distinct competitive edge over both opposition Labour and his Lib Dem partners in Government.
Among the issues referred to in Cameron’s speech of last June are that:
• We can’t keep endlessly pumping money into welfare
• Compassion is not measured out in welfare cheques but in opportunities given to people (to get a job, get on, etc.)
• Reform means transforming lives for the better
• Self-reliance is in everyone
• A genuine safety net be provided for those who need it
• A strong minimum wage is required
• Incentives to work be provided by a system of tax credits, etc.
I’m really sick and tired of our Labour Party’s “levelling down” approach to leadership in this little country of ours.
How refreshing it would be to strive for a better, self-reliant society, better self-reliant country as they are doing in the UK right now.
Is there anyone out there up for the challenge?0 -
Thoie wrote:If you were a private sector employee, paying taxes, to get €9,000 a month nett you would need to be earning €193,300 a year, or an hourly rate of €110.
And of course if you were in the public sector you'd have to earn €211,400 to get this, more than the generous judge who agreed to this.0 -
They tax the hell out of working people and out of the things that you use to work and how you get to work and also the savings you get from work and the housing that you pay for from work.
It's effectively a type of Communism when you include the internship schemes where they 'strongly encourage' graduates to work in private companies and pay the salary for the company. Of course this salary is actually paid for by the taxpayer.
What with Burton's comments that social welfare is economic stimulus..yes I think Communism with Irish characteristics is an apt description.
The state interferes too much and this is what happens. Unless the state has got it's priorities right (encourage people to earn their own money through their own efforts and keep the majority of the rewards of their own labour and skills) then you are screwed.
Then they go on about the 'the vulnerable' who are actually the 'the privileged'. The champagne socialists who sit at the top of this charade will leave their office chuffed with themselves and their nice salaries and pensions.
That is pretty much what it is, with the exception being you are free to leave, which is exactly what many people do.
Why would you want to earn money the state is going to take half of away?
Anyone with half a brain earning decent money would move.0 -
Advertisement
-
Agree wholeheartedly ,the state is too large as per classic left wing economics ,we need a new right wing party which can take the place of Labour as the smaller coalition party which can commit to reducing the size of the state and encourage self reliance. Both FG and FF have large enough right of centre leanings to achieve this if Labour were not the only possible partner in government.Its a pity Enda didn't have the gumption to form either a minority government or chance it with independents after the election I feel we would be in a stronger position now with some meaningful structural reform in place as opposed to the cop out we seem stuck with.They tax the hell out of working people and out of the things that you use to work and how you get to work and also the savings you get from work and the housing that you pay for from work.
It's effectively a type of Communism when you include the internship schemes where they 'strongly encourage' graduates to work in private companies and pay the salary for the company. Of course this salary is actually paid for by the taxpayer.
What with Burton's comments that social welfare is economic stimulus..yes I think Communism with Irish characteristics is an apt description.
The state interferes too much and this is what happens. Unless the state has got it's priorities right (encourage people to earn their own money through their own efforts and keep the majority of the rewards of their own labour and skills) then you are screwed.
Then they go on about the 'the vulnerable' who are actually the 'the privileged'. The champagne socialists who sit at the top of this charade will leave their office chuffed with themselves and their nice salaries and pensions.0 -
Wouldn’t it be great, wouldn’t it be refreshing to see some real leadership from our Taoiseach, Enda Kenny – not just cleaning up the mess left by FF (that they themselves had already started to do) but having the courage to articulate what real reform means and then implementing it?
For ideas on what to do, all he needs to look at what David Cameron is doing, for example about Welfare Reform. These are extracts from David Cameron’s keynote speech to the Conservative Party Conference in October 2013 (http://www.newstatesman.com/staggers/2013/10/david-camerons-speech-conservative-party-conference-2013-full-text):
“The land of opportunity needs one final thing: welfare that works.
We know how badly things went wrong.
Our fellow citizens working every hour of every day to put food on the table ask this: why should my taxes go to people who could work but don't?
Or to those who live in homes that hardworking people could never afford?
Or to people who have no right to be here in the first place?
I say this to the British people: you have every right to be angry about a system that is unfair and unjust - and that's why we are sorting it out.
We've capped welfare. We've capped housing benefit. We've insisted on new rules so that if you reject work, you lose benefits.............................
...........................................
We don't patronise people, put a benefit cheque in their hand and pat them on the head.
We look people in the eye as equals and say: yes, you've been down - but you're not out.
.you can do it, you have it in you, we will give you that chance.
And that's why we can say today that it's this Party that is fighting for all those who were written off by Labour...
....................
You don't do this job to be popular.
You do it because you love your country.
I do the best I can. And for me, it comes back to some simple things.
Country first. Do what's decent. Think long-term”.
If Enda can’t or won’t do it, he should move over and let someone more capable get on with the job!0 -
If Enda can’t or won’t do it, he should move over and let someone more capable get on with the job![/QUOTE]
But we need to consider carefully who we vote for. I've met so many people who voted FG last time promise that they will never again vote for them again because they haven't created jobs or because of emigration, taxes or whatever. They are only waiting (again) to give the present govt. mostly the Labour element admittedly a good hard kicking.
They need to realise what will be the result of their actions.
Imagine what will happen if and when the SF/FF coalition arrives or a grand coalition of LAB/SF/FF. Plenty more tax and spend and every conceivable welfare scheme under the sun.
I'm not a FG member or supporter but I know that you have to vote for the least worst option. At the moment they are probably that.
I do think there is a cohort out there who think like that and that is why FG support is holding up compared to Labour. But I don't think it will be enough to prevent us from ending up with a very left leaning government next time around.0 -
exactly, at all costs FG must be kept in power, short of the alternative and I'm not going to hold my breath, of a new centre right party being formed... As has been mentioned on this thread, even if they could be the junior coalition partner with FG, they would have similar enough mindsets and could probably change things for the better...I'm not a FG member or supporter but I know that you have to vote for the least worst option. At the moment they are probably that.
We hve Creighton, Shane Ross and a few others, maybe McDowell, why the hell dont they and a few others form together?! Market themselves as the anti waste and waster party? They already have the contacts, experience, know the system etc...
The election is another good while away, we are pretty much out of the bailout, unemployment dropping etc, I think things will be much improved by the next election AND I'm sure there will be somewhat of a "Giveaway" budget... If during the height of the crisis, FG support remained this high, I'm sure come the next election, they will clearly be the most popular party...But we need to consider carefully who we vote for. I've met so many people who voted FG last time promise that they will never again vote for them again because they haven't created jobs or because of emigration, taxes or whatever. They are only waiting (again) to give the present govt. mostly the Labour element admittedly a good hard kicking.0 -
golfwallah wrote: »David Cameron’s welfare reform is demonstrating that lots can be done about the UK’s out of control welfare spending and the welfare disincentive to work. All it takes is the “welfare cap” (of around £500/week, including child and housing benefits), plus, of course, the courage to implement it: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/9354163/David-Camerons-welfare-speech-in-full.html
How much more difficult can it be to implement something similar in Ireland, before the whole country is dragged down into the gutter by the current misguided policy, resulting in welfare as a legitimate career choice, financed by unaffordable taxes and borrowings?
Granted, Fine Gael, are in coalition with socialist Labour but, if Cameron can do it, why not FG? It certainly gives his party a distinct competitive edge over both opposition Labour and his Lib Dem partners in Government.
Among the issues referred to in Cameron’s speech of last June are that:
• We can’t keep endlessly pumping money into welfare
• Compassion is not measured out in welfare cheques but in opportunities given to people (to get a job, get on, etc.)
• Reform means transforming lives for the better
• Self-reliance is in everyone
• A genuine safety net be provided for those who need it
• A strong minimum wage is required
• Incentives to work be provided by a system of tax credits, etc.
I’m really sick and tired of our Labour Party’s “levelling down” approach to leadership in this little country of ours.
How refreshing it would be to strive for a better, self-reliant society, better self-reliant country as they are doing in the UK right now.
Is there anyone out there up for the challenge?
That's all fine but we do not have a balanced society. We still have massive emigration which adversely skews the economics of the country and deprives us of future innovation and development. If we kept all our people then we would go forward and achieve a better society and financial success. Until we stop the brain drain then we are stuck in a rut, and it will matter little who is in power.0 -
Idbatterim wrote: »exactly, at all costs FG must be kept in power, short of the alternative and I'm not going to hold my breath, of a new centre right party being formed... As has been mentioned on this thread, even if they could be the junior coalition partner with FG, they would have similar enough mindsets and could probably change things for the better...
We hve Creighton, Shane Ross and a few others, maybe McDowell, why the hell dont they and a few others form together?! Market themselves as the anti waste and waster party? They already have the contacts, experience, know the system etc...
The election is another good while away, we are pretty much out of the bailout, unemployment dropping etc, I think things will be much improved by the next election AND I'm sure there will be somewhat of a "Giveaway" budget... If during the height of the crisis, FG support remained this high, I'm sure come the next election, they will clearly be the most popular party...
I know this is going to sound ludicrous, but Kenny strikes me as having tremendous political ambitions and has surrendered to the IMF and the Germans. So he is a lost cause. He sent Ireland in like lambs to the slaughter. about him because he has bigger ambitions.
Also they are essentially school teachers, and in many respects it would have been better to have cowboys, as in FF dealing with the EU cowboys. Is all business at the bottom line.
What is sickening, and I'm sure I don't need to say this, is how a here saw it coming, and bailed ship, like a cowardly captain. How the country does not feel deep angry betrayal and have not hunted him down to me either shows despairing passivity or remarkable forgiveness.
The sign of a successful welfare system is ow many manage to get off it, not ow many depend on it, but until they call a halt to jobs ridge, drop fuel taxes,and give the family court judges a good old talking too, I can't see many things changing.0 -
Id agree to an extent, but I would prefer to focus on stuff that is 100% in his ability to tackle. Would there have been a different outcome regardless of who the leader was or which party was in power? we will never know, we can speculate...I know this is going to sound ludicrous, but Kenny strikes me as having tremendous political ambitions and has surrendered to the IMF and the Germans. So he is a lost cause. He sent Ireland in like lambs to the slaughter. about him because he has bigger ambitions.
Also they are essentially school teachers, and in many respects it would have been better to have cowboys, as in FF dealing with the EU cowboys. Is all business at the bottom line.
What is sickening, and I'm sure I don't need to say this, is how a here saw it coming, and bailed ship, like a cowardly captain. How the country does not feel deep angry betrayal and have not hunted him down to me either shows despairing passivity or remarkable forgiveness.
The sign of a successful welfare system is ow many manage to get off it, not ow many depend on it, but until they call a halt to jobs ridge, drop fuel taxes,and give the family court judges a good old talking too, I can't see many things changing.
I think citizens are deeply angry and possibly feeling betrayed, the problem was, that by the time FG came to power, the damage in reality, had been done... I think its all very complex, but a simple analogy to use is, that there were bigger bully boys in the playground (cash rich), against us (cash poor) they knew our position and took advantage of it. It was a double "bail out" for the Irish state and banks and for the foreign bondholders and banks etc...How the country does not feel deep angry betrayal and have not hunted him down to me either shows despairing passivity or remarkable forgiveness.
Yeah and this is the cost for keeping many of the gravy trains on the road...That's all fine but we do not have a balanced society. We still have massive emigration which adversely skews the economics of the country and deprives us of future innovation and development. If we kept all our people then we would go forward and achieve a better society and financial success. Until we stop the brain drain then we are stuck in a rut, and it will matter little who is in power.
Mr.Micro is offline Report Post0 -
This post has been deleted.0
-
Idbatterim wrote: »Id agree to an extent, but I would prefer to focus on stuff that is 100% in his ability to tackle. Would there have been a different outcome regardless of who the leader was or which party was in power? we will never know, we can speculate...
I think citizens are deeply angry and possibly feeling betrayed, the problem was, that by the time FG came to power, the damage in reality, had been done... I think its all very complex, but a simple analogy to use is, that there were bigger bully boys in the playground (cash rich), against us (cash poor) they knew our position and took advantage of it. It was a double "bail out" for the Irish state and banks and for the foreign bondholders and banks etc...
Yeah and this is the cost for keeping many of the gravy trains on the road...
I largely agree with you but there is one very important card Ireland was holding. The EU is a project that Germany, IMO irrationally, does not want to see fail. It can't fail, it has such a psychological investment in the EU, that Ireland held the key to. If Ireland folded and did not cave to the deal they were cattle prodded Ito, the whole house of cards would have fallen.
The crowd of school teachers leading the way, had ZERO negotiating skills, and if they were a bit tougher Ireland could have held her own and come out swinging.0 -
Advertisement
-
I take it you are referring to the bank debt? I wont disagree that it is immoral. What happens though if we call their bluff and the government arent prepared to follow though? The problem was, that those with the money had the power, which meant they could call the shots. One of the reasons I'm sure they were very reluctant to, is that if you give Ireland an exception, you will have the rest of the PIGS knocking on the door.I largely agree with you but there is one very important card Ireland was holding. The EU is a project that Germany, IMO irrationally, does not want to see fail. It can't fail, it has such a psychological investment in the EU, that Ireland held the key to. If Ireland folded and did not cave to the deal they were cattle prodded Ito, the whole house of cards would have fallen.
The crowd of school teachers leading the way, had ZERO negotiating skills, and if they were a bit tougher Ireland could have held her own and come out swinging.
Put it this way as apathetic as we are, say the same situation arose again in 5 years, the exact same one, purely hypothetical I know, I highly doubt that with the wisdom of hindsight, the government of the day or the Irish electorate, would even entertain the notion of non systemic banks being bailed out, blanket guarantees etc... Id say then you could potentially see the riots...0
Advertisement