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Entitlement Culture killing the will to work in Ireland
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Sheldons Brain wrote: »In the general period of benchmarking private and public salaries rose by a similar amount, I suspect your memory is selective.
I think that depends on your source though.For example, according to Ronan Lyons (apparently using CSO data) average earnings in the PS rose by 20K per annum compared to 15K per annum in the private sector for the period of 1998 to 2008.
The demand for goods that have not become redundant or have reached max capacity rarely drops, merely the ability for people to pay/fund those services reduces their sales capacity. We see this is in the consumer goods market all the time, when a company announces a price drop and see a upswing in sales. The demand was always there, it was just the product was priced too high.demand for things like health, education does not vary much so people do not become redundant.0 -
As a matter of interest have you any data on how private sector wages in Ireland compare to the OECD average? By the way what business opportunity is Eddie plugging these days? ..
Just thought I'd change the emphasis of your message slightly - the % figure is indicative.
Are you presenting yourself as representative of the entire private sector?
Good point .. presumably you are advocating compulsory redundancies with compensatory redundancy packages in areas where there is a surplus of staff?
Why are you trying to compare to the private sector? If someone in the public sector seen private sector wage as being higher than what they earn they have the choice to leave the public sector and get a job in the private sector?
Also if a private sector person earns more, the government gets more in cash in tax meaning a nett profit for this worker..If a public sevant earns more it means we have to pay more out of tax meaning a nett loss
In fairness to Hobbs I know he does a lot of self promotion but he didn't say anything about anything that he is personally involved in.
Fair enough change the emphasis..but put it in black and white...so its 30% so that means that 30% of the 200 billion we owe is due to ps pay and pension and 3 billion out of the 10billion is still being borrowed next year to pay ps pay and pensions...
Also I know other sectors in the private sector are/were booming during the crash but for the public sector to point at such sectors that are making profits and pointing at their pay rises as a template for themselves when their employer is broke and borrowing is wrong. Increments should of been suspended back in 2009
I advocating streamlining the public sector and actually getting value for money if that means compulsory redundancies so be it0 -
fliball123 wrote: »No I am advocating pay cuts in 1 sector because compared to other Public sectors in other countries with in the OCED they are overpayed. Also their pay went up in the years between 1999 and today by nearly 60% over all (that takes both benchmarking and pay cuts and increments into account) and it had a knock on effect of increasing the pension burden 5 fold in that time..We have a looming public sector pension problem of about 116billion. (according to Eddie Hobbs on Pat Kenny this morning)
Now that you have educated yourself by listening to a tabloid news programme on the radio, perhaps you could answer some of the points below I raised with you a few days ago.
Eddie Hobbs led the "lets all become property millionaires" charge.
http://www.brendaninvestments.ie/press/
The real truth is that Eddie Hobbs doesn't have a clue about public sector pensions and the real bill is nothing like €116 billion.
If you are so sure of your stance, provide a link rather than a rant.Yawn, this has been done to death.
http://www.audgen.gov.ie/documents/vfmreports/68_Central_Gov_Pensions.pdf
Here is the C&AG Report done in 2009.
Interesting that none has been done since. Why?
"After taking account of the assets held in the funded schemes and €5.4 billion of assets held in the NPRF, it is estimated that the net present value of the accrued pension liabilities at the end of 2008 amounted to €101 billion."
That figure will now be less because of
(1) The paycuts in 2010 and 2013 to existing public servants
(2) The cuts to pensions in excess of €32,000.
The report explicitly said that the early retirement schemes will increase pensions in the short term but decrease them in the longer terms and it had not taken this into consideration:
"The impact of the scheme will be to increase pension outflows in the short term and to reduce them in the longer term due to the lower number of years’ service achieved by those taking early retirement."
It also assumed salary and pension increases:
"the expected pension at retirement was calculated allowing for future general salary inflation"
"The value of the accrued pension liability is calculated assuming that future pension increases are awarded at the same rate as general salary inflation i.e. 1.75% p.a. above price inflation (pay parity)."
Well, salary increases ain't happening. Inflation is slightly above zero since 2008 with a sharp fall in 2009 being offset by small increases since. So the 1.75% accumulator didn't happen. By 2013, this should have resulted in over a 9% increase in salary rates. Didn't happen.
So the figure of €101 billion in accrued pension liabilities is an overestimate, probably by as much as 20%. It also takes no account of the level of income likely to be received from pension contributions and PRD.
The report does go on to consider these issues:
"While the foregoing paragraphs have considered the present value of entitlements which have accrued to date, it is also useful to examine the future trend in payments. Unlike the accrued pensions liability which reflects benefits earned to date, these cash flows reflect the monetary impact of future recruitment and retirement patterns."
"It is estimated, based on the examination assumptions used, that the cumulative gross outflows in the period 2009 to 2058 will amount to €367 billion and net outflows will amount to €157 billion".
Now this figure takes account of money received as well as money going out. It also includes the current accrued liability of €101bn. Certain assumptions are made:
"Annual gross cash outflows are projected to increase by over 500% from €2.4 billion in 2009 to €14.7 billion in 2058 in constant 2008 price terms. Contribution income, including PRD, is also projected to increase by over 300% from €1.7 billion to €7.4 billion".
So outflows will grow faster than income. We will return to that.
"The projected growth in the number of pensioners results from an increase in size of the public service which is forecast to increase by 23% between 2008 and 2018."
Well that is another thing that ain't going to happen.
http://www.budget.gov.ie/The%20National%20Recovery%20Plan%202011-2014.pdf
"Cut public service staff numbers by 24,750 over 2008 levels, back to levels last seen in 2005"
That is a cut of about 10% rather than growth of 23%. Now remember that expenditure was rising faster than income. That means for every extra public servant projected the net bill gets higher but for every less public servant the net bill gets lower. Our €157 bn is getting smaller again. Probably by as much as one-third? Then you need to have an idea about what is going to happen salary inflation from 2008 onwards. Well we know the first five years have not gone according to plan and if I was a public servant, I wouldn't be betting on my salary returning to 2008 levels before 2020, by which stage it could be 20-30% behind the C&AG predictions.
Appendix C looks at some sensitivity options. It considers what higher salary increases would mean but doesn't look at what salary cuts (which we have had to date) or lower salary increases (which are likely over the course of the study because of the front-loaded salary cuts) would mean. However, in examining salary increases the following statement is made:
"The impact of increasing the assumed real rates of wage growth (the real rate is the amount in excess of price inflation) and State Social Insurance pension increases by 0.5% per annum was examined. Increasing the real rates by 0.5% per annum would lead to a revised assumption for real general salary inflation and State pension increases of 2.25% per annum. The impact on the value of the accrued pension liability is shown in Figure C.3.
"The total liability increases from €106.6 billion to €117.1 billion (net of assets held within funded pension schemes but before allowance for NPRF assets) which is an increase of 10%."
When you consider that in actual fact we have seen more than the opposite - i.e. salaries being cut rather than inflation plus 2.25%, you can only conclude that the long-term liability has been cut significantly.
Now you see why there has been no official study since 2008. The costs of future public service pensions have been significantly reduced both by the cuts in pay and pensions but also by the cuts in numbers. All of these measures are significantly below where the 2008 study assumed they would be. The government doesn't want anyone studying this. Imagine if an independent study found that the 2008 pension liability had been cut by say one-third, in the order of €50 bn?
But, hay, you and others can continue on your ill-informed rant about public servants and the pension liability.
Now do some research yourself.0 -
fliball123 wrote: »
My experience of the private sector is this over the last 8 is that we took a pay cut 20% and no pay increase and people also got let go..This was to protect the company from going under as they were in debt back in 2009 ..For 3 months we did not get paid and the place was close to going to the wall...Fortunately things picked up the CEO remortgaged the house to pump 50k in to pay wages for a few months and a few deals were done..They are now making a small profit but still no pay rises and with a less people working we all have to chip in and do more...
Maybe I am mixing you up with another poster, but didn't you head off to Australia for a year or so?fliball123 wrote: »Also why cant people who are duplicating work not be fired from the public service..The amalgamation of the health boards into the HSE come to mind
There are 30,000 less people working in the public sector than five years ago, a drop of around 9%.
As unemployment went from 5% to 14% overall in the economy (equivalent to 9% losing their jobs) the amount of job losses in the public sector is broadly similar to the private sector.0 -
Who honestly gives a ****! I know famlies who havent worked yet get benefits, so what. I also know famlies who work and doesnt care about this welfare state. Do you thickos honestly think thst taxes will get cut if all these where thrown ogf the dole. Not a chance of it. The men in the suites will jusy come up with more ways og taking your money. Its what this system is designed to do. Its now a jealously issue for yous, yoi see people having an ok living without going to work. If you think society is bad now, wait and see if yous get your fcuking wish to cull the benefits. Yous woll be demanding it get re introduced when it starts coming to your door with the high crime rates.
Fs how much do you actully think gets spent on the cheats, not much in the grand scheme of things. Its better these people getting it rather than the men in the shirt and tie getting it and hiding it away on off shote accounts. At least the small guy keeps the money in the country.
Do yourselves a favour and stop looking into other peoples lives and concentrate on your own pathetic lives. Your a long time dead remember an no one is going to give 2 hoots about this in 100yrs so why should you now.0 -
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Id prefer the working men in the shirt and tie to be getting it...Fs how much do you actully think gets spent on the cheats, not much in the grand scheme of things. Its better these people getting it rather than the men in the shirt and tie getting it and hiding it away on off shote accounts. At least the small guy keeps the money in the country.0 -
Who honestly gives a ****! I know famlies who havent worked yet get benefits, so what. I also know famlies who work and doesnt care about this welfare state. Do you thickos honestly think thst taxes will get cut if all these where thrown ogf the dole. Not a chance of it. The men in the suites will jusy come up with more ways og taking your money. Its what this system is designed to do. Its now a jealously issue for yous, yoi see people having an ok living without going to work. If you think society is bad now, wait and see if yous get your fcuking wish to cull the benefits. Yous woll be demanding it get re introduced when it starts coming to your door with the high crime rates.
Fs how much do you actully think gets spent on the cheats, not much in the grand scheme of things. Its better these people getting it rather than the men in the shirt and tie getting it and hiding it away on off shote accounts. At least the small guy keeps the money in the country.
Do yourselves a favour and stop looking into other peoples lives and concentrate on your own pathetic lives. Your a long time dead remember an no one is going to give 2 hoots about this in 100yrs so why should you now.
You're hardly on Social Welfare, are you?? :pac:0 -
Who honestly gives a ****! I know famlies who havent worked yet get benefits, so what. I also know famlies who work and doesnt care about this welfare state. Do you thickos honestly think thst taxes will get cut if all these where thrown ogf the dole. Not a chance of it. The men in the suites will jusy come up with more ways og taking your money. Its what this system is designed to do. Its now a jealously issue for yous, yoi see people having an ok living without going to work. If you think society is bad now, wait and see if yous get your fcuking wish to cull the benefits. Yous woll be demanding it get re introduced when it starts coming to your door with the high crime rates.
Fs how much do you actully think gets spent on the cheats, not much in the grand scheme of things. Its better these people getting it rather than the men in the shirt and tie getting it and hiding it away on off shote accounts. At least the small guy keeps the money in the country.
Do yourselves a favour and stop looking into other peoples lives and concentrate on your own pathetic lives. Your a long time dead remember an no one is going to give 2 hoots about this in 100yrs so why should you now.
This post is a clear example why welfare should be cut and more money diverted to adult literacy programs.0 -
This post is a clear example why welfare should be cut and more money diverted to adult literacy programs.
Who gives 2 F**** about literacy programes. I know i dont. You people are so much up your own arses its comical. Yous all think that life should be lived one way, go to school from an early age, go through the education system, get a job, work 9-5 or more, get a wife, buy a house have a few kids but not to much. Make sure you go to chruch to pray to the biggest myth mankind has ever created. Put money away for retirement then die. **** me even thinking about that makes me feel depressed. Just you people keep doing over time because im thinking of banging another kid out of another bird ill prob meet at the weekend, fs, im going to neef someone to pay for it so ask your boses for some overtime lol. Remember, its all legal too what i want, thats the funny part of it all lol. Good bye, signing out of this thread while in mcds using their free wifi servive after picking up my free dole lol. Adios! lol0 -
There are free courses in family planning too btw, and the CWO might even give you free rubbers. In these times of austerity we can't just give out free prams anymore ya know.0
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fliball123 wrote: »No I am advocating pay cuts in 1 sector because compared to other Public sectors in other countries with in the OCED they are overpayed. Also their pay went up in the years between 1999 and today by nearly 60% over all (that takes both benchmarking and pay cuts and increments into account) and it had a knock on effect of increasing the pension burden 5 fold in that time..We have a looming public sector pension problem of about 116billion. (according to Eddie Hobbs on Pat Kenny this morning)
Is that the same fella selling us holiday homes in Bulgaria in 2006?
What a prat, and anybody that fell for it too, how anybody in this country can take him serious is beyond me.0 -
fliball123 wrote: »Why are you trying to compare to the private sector? If someone in the public sector seen private sector wage as being higher than what they earn they have the choice to leave the public sector and get a job in the private sector?
Because there is a constant flow of comment comparing the private sector to the public sector. Is it only possible to have a one comparison?Also if a private sector person earns more, the government gets more in cash in tax meaning a nett profit for this worker..If a public sevant earns more it means we have to pay more out of tax meaning a nett loss
Sorry for being facetious but just may have solved the deficit problem .. increase taxation and make even bigger profits off private sector workers and at the same time achieve savings in the public pay bill.0 -
fliball123 wrote: »My experience of the private sector is this over the last 8 is that we took a pay cut 20% and no pay increase and people also got let go..This was to protect the company from going under as they were in debt back in 2009 ..For 3 months we did not get paid and the place was close to going to the wall...Fortunately things picked up the CEO remortgaged the house to pump 50k in to pay wages for a few months and a few deals were done..They are now making a small profit but still no pay rises and with a less people working we all have to chip in and do more...
So, because you are in a sector that took some cuts......, i have many friends that enjoyed pay rises, bonus's, work trips away, and many many nights out at their employers expense over the last 8 years as you put it.
Some of these guys are in construction, yes construction, and are already talking about this years work xmas part in the Gresham Hotel! Others are in insurance, Pension Advice and Tax advice.
Your experience is not true representation of the private sector as a whole, and nowhere near it i'm afraid.0 -
fliball123 wrote: »Also their pay went up in the years between 1999 and today by nearly 60% over all (that takes both benchmarking and pay cuts and increments into account) and it had a knock on effect of increasing the pension burden 5 fold in that time..We have a looming public sector pension problem of about 116billion. (according to Eddie Hobbs on Pat Kenny this morning)
Also have one guess which section of the public sector within the whole of the OCED are on average the oldest? Anser our Health sector meaning they are going to push our pensions crisis in sooner rather than later.. (once again discussed on PK)
Good to see your time in Oz improved your impartiality.
Now, taking economic advice from Eddie Hobbs, being interviewed by Plank Kenny..... Well, it must have been a great circus if it was led by those two clowns.
And, as an aside, isn't this the same Pat Kenny who recently left state employment because they wouldn't accede to his outrageous pay demands?0 -
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A few pertinent quotes on the "Entitlement Culture":
“You cannot help people permanently by doing for them, what they could and should do for themselves.” – Abraham Lincoln.
“When we replace a sense of service and gratitude with a sense of entitlement and expectation, we quickly see the demise of our relationships, society, and economy.” – Steve Maraboli.
“The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.” – Margaret Thatcher.0 -
This thread is a mixture of rambling silliness with the odd interesting point.
What I want to know how come its everyone else who has a sense of entitlement except for the OP and most of the posters.0 -
Now that you have educated yourself by listening to a tabloid news programme on the radio, perhaps you could answer some of the points below I raised with you a few days ago.
Eddie Hobbs led the "lets all become property millionaires" charge.
http://www.brendaninvestments.ie/press/
The real truth is that Eddie Hobbs doesn't have a clue about public sector pensions and the real bill is nothing like €116 billion.
If you are so sure of your stance, provide a link rather than a rant.
http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1023262.shtml
Have a read of the 7th paragraph there I will just copy and paste it in as well
IBEC director Brendan McGinty said: “Ireland is simply not in a position to fund existing public service pension liabilities. Plans to reform rules for new entrants are welcome, but need to go much further. Existing public sector workers should no longer qualify for pensions based exclusively on their final retirement salary, instead pensions should be based on an average salary of future service. Also, pensioners should not automatically qualify for pension increases if serving staff are awarded pay rises.
"Despite the pension-related deductions in 2009 and pay reductions in 2010, the cost of public sector pensions will still amount to €2.9bn gross in 2011.The current overall cost of outstanding and unfunded public sector pensions could be at least €130bn, equal to 83% of total GDP. Pensions now account for 14% of the government's total pay and pensions bill, up 44% since 2008. This is no longer affordable, the taxpayer is simply not in a position to pick up the tab.
I believe it is now based on average salary for new entrants but there is still a very large public sector pension hole that needs to be covered.
http://brianmlucey.wordpress.com/2012/07/20/pension-and-crises/
Lucey reckons its over 100billino back in 2012..0 -
fliball123 wrote: »http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1023262.shtml
Have a read of the 7th paragraph there I will just copy and paste it in as well
IBEC director Brendan McGinty said: “Ireland is simply not in a position to fund existing public service pension liabilities. Plans to reform rules for new entrants are welcome, but need to go much further. Existing public sector workers should no longer qualify for pensions based exclusively on their final retirement salary, instead pensions should be based on an average salary of future service. Also, pensioners should not automatically qualify for pension increases if serving staff are awarded pay rises.
"Despite the pension-related deductions in 2009 and pay reductions in 2010, the cost of public sector pensions will still amount to €2.9bn gross in 2011.The current overall cost of outstanding and unfunded public sector pensions could be at least €130bn, equal to 83% of total GDP. Pensions now account for 14% of the government's total pay and pensions bill, up 44% since 2008. This is no longer affordable, the taxpayer is simply not in a position to pick up the tab.
I believe it is now based on average salary but there is still a very large public sector pension hole that needs to be covered
out of the billions that we borrowed, a few billion of that went into PS pensions. still not enough. DB pensions should be banned.0 -
fliball123 wrote: »http://brianmlucey.wordpress.com/2012/07/20/pension-and-crises/
Lucey reckons its over 100billino back in 2012..
Is this the genius that came up with the brainwave where the banks would sell their deposit books, not realising that deposits held by banks are in fact liabilities.0 -
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golfwallah wrote: »I keep coming across anecdotal evidence of people taking advantage of our welfare system in all its manifestations to attain a comfortable lifestyle.
Refreshing to hear one Hollywood personality talking a bit of sense about this issue in the USA:
http://poorrichardsnews.com/post/66346691371/ashton-kutcher-theres-an-entitlement-starting-to
LOL i just have to laugh when you say that there is a hollywood personality to talk about the issue of welfare,do you know in america they live on food vouchers?????They have also had them cut recently because some rich republicans said so..
In case you havent noticed those hollywood personalities are hardly qualified to give an adequate crittique on this issue as they are far removed from society..
Nobody lives comfortable on social welfare you should try it some time..
Joan burton has cut welfare pushing those on small pennies into homelessness,she has chased small pennies here,she hurt honest people struggling on welfare,and fraud(the ones she should be after) is still happening on the irish social welfare system,even with big sister in place..
You talk about ancedotal evidence,but have no real evidence at all.. Poverty is a man made phenomenon made by a lot who dont want to give a fair share of the government pie..
I wonder why you put this thread up,is it to bash those on the dole??I work part time and get **** all,i had been on the dole for 3 years, and you know what i got???Nothing but f***cking judgement from mealy mouthed f***rs like you which doesn't exactly help morale and confidence which is what you need to get a job..
I just find it funny how you say that the entitlement culture is killing the will to work in ireland,you know we live in a climate with slave schemes like job bridge sucking up what jobs could be left in our economy - and people are leaving ireland to the tune of 87,000 - 100,000 per year on average,are you listening?And you say that its ENTITLEMENT CULTURE KILLING THE WILL TO WORK?Listen there are no jobs out there,there are a lot of job bridge jobs out there,why should someone settle for a job bridge job when they can **** off to australia and get a couple of grand saved up..
There are PLENTY OF PEOPLE WHO WANT TO WORK but can't as the jobs simply aren't out there,there are kids teaming out of college with no jobs available in the area that they studied in..Some end up on the dole others go to emigrate to other countries - those in case you havent noticed are the only options out there..
So sit there with your mealy mouth and pontificate with your hollywood personality star buddy about those on welfare..
edit: sorry for all the swearing but people like him really get my goat..0 -
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fliball123 wrote: »http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1023262.shtml
Have a read of the 7th paragraph there I will just copy and paste it in as well
IBEC director Brendan McGinty said: “Ireland is simply not in a position to fund existing public service pension liabilities. Plans to reform rules for new entrants are welcome, but need to go much further. Existing public sector workers should no longer qualify for pensions based exclusively on their final retirement salary, instead pensions should be based on an average salary of future service. Also, pensioners should not automatically qualify for pension increases if serving staff are awarded pay rises.
"Despite the pension-related deductions in 2009 and pay reductions in 2010, the cost of public sector pensions will still amount to €2.9bn gross in 2011.The current overall cost of outstanding and unfunded public sector pensions could be at least €130bn, equal to 83% of total GDP. Pensions now account for 14% of the government's total pay and pensions bill, up 44% since 2008. This is no longer affordable, the taxpayer is simply not in a position to pick up the tab.
I believe it is now based on average salary for new entrants but there is still a very large public sector pension hole that needs to be covered.
http://brianmlucey.wordpress.com/2012/07/20/pension-and-crises/
Lucey reckons its over 100billino back in 2012..
Epic fail.
Brian Lucey refers to the 2008 report which I linked to above so he is not talking about 2012.
He also, as I do, points to the changes that have taken place since 2008 to reduce that 100bn bill. In fact, he misses some of the ones I highlighted such as the pay cuts and the reduction in public service numbers.
He then goes on to point to the hole in the non-contributory pensions and the contributory pensions given to the private sector which aren't been paid for either and which nobody talks about.
Brendan McGinty's piece is from 2011. Since then we have had cuts in pension rates and the new pension scheme so while his statement might have been right in 2011, steps have been taken since then to address the issue.
Once again, you have helped to prove my point that the €100bn (or €116 bn or €109 bn or €156 bn depending on which part of the report you read) estimated in 2008 has been signifcantly reduced but that nobody has carried out an exercise since then to accurately estimate how much lower.0 -
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He then goes on to point to the hole in the non-contributory pensions and the contributory pensions given to the private sector which aren't been paid for either and which nobody talks about.
And of course many people about to retire in the PS will not receive a contributory pensions, so the PS "hole" is all the bigger as a consequence of accounting treatment.0 -
I for one am shocked to hear that the non-contributory pension has not been paid for.0
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I for one am shocked to hear that the non-contributory pension has not been paid for.
Yes, we get the sarcasm, but consider this.
A clerical officer who works for 40 years for the state, paying his taxes, paying his PRSI, paying his pension contribution and pension levy will end up with a pension of €340.
A returning emigrant with his foreign-born wife who paid no tax, who made no contribution to Ireland will be entitled to a pension of €353.70.
A single man who leaves school after the Junior Cert and spends his life on the dole is entitled to a pension of €219.
Who is hard done by in the scenario?0
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