Entitlement Culture killing the will to work in Ireland

fliball123

everdead.ie wrote: »

The good news is that 61,000 extra people are in employment now then last year taking 41,400 off unemployment. (This means nay-sayers it isn't all emigration)

Also worth noting that the public sector lost 5,500 jobs so the government isn't going down the boom route of employing people instead of having them on the dole.

The most important thing is 58,000 of these jobs are full time.

So despite what a lot of people think about welfare being too high (certainly it's unsustainable for us), the Irish peoples will to work has not been completely obliterated there are still a ton of people looking for work to improve their lot in life.


Hopefully we can accelerate this growth in employment and get the double whammy of taking people off the states unemployment payments and paying income and PRSI taxes.

While you make a good point it would be worth while getting immigration figures into Ireland this year..As the people coming to this country from the likes of Poland etc have a very strong work ethic and I bet would be a good % of that figure going into full time jobs

chopper6

fliball123 wrote: »

While you make a good point it would be worth while getting immigration figures into Ireland this year..As the people coming to this country from the likes of Poland etc have a very strong work ethic and I bet would be a good % of that figure going into full time jobs

There's literally thousands of them on the dole at the moment.

creedp

chopper6 wrote: »

There's literally thousands of them on the dole at the moment.

That's not mutually exclusive with having a strong work ethic. Indeed it could be argued that the current SW system encourages people to be in both camps simultaneously.

fliball123

chopper6 wrote: »

There's literally thousands of them on the dole at the moment.

Can people from other countries just show up and claim the dole in Ireland without working?

fliball123

creedp wrote: »

That's not mutually exclusive with having a strong work ethic. Indeed it could be argued that the current SW system encourages people to be in both camps simultaneously.

Well thats the other 20 billion dollar question the government are putting the squeeze on people getting welfare which they are not entitled to..What are they doing about the black market ecconomy

Farmer Pudsey

Just went in to the bank today paid 225 euro for junior cert and leaving cert exams. It is these sort of costs that really show the cost of working. In late January nearly gave 100 euro for mock exams and the marking of them. Paid about 250 in school fees last September. Lad in third level was it 2.5K in registeration fees. As he is away from home it will cost about 3.5K in accomdation and a few thousand for food, heating and utilities. Really make you wonder about working while they go to college.

chopper6

fliball123 wrote: »

Can people from other countries just show up and claim the dole in Ireland without working?

Romas appear to do it all the time.

Scofflaw

chopper6 wrote: »

Romas appear to do it all the time.

Appear != do. Back the claim up or retract, please.

moderately,
Scofflaw

chopper6

Scofflaw wrote: »

Appear != do. Back the claim up or retract, please.

moderately,
Scofflaw

http://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/373/56211/0/Paul-Connolly-Investigates...

AlekSmart

chopper6 wrote: »

http://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/373/56211/0/Paul-Connolly-Investigates...

I rather suspect,Chopper6,that you will get a lash of the moderators crozier over your use of the word "all" as in "all of the time".

Additionally you'll most likely get a concurrent lash for tending to agree with fliball's use of the term "Dole".

The TV3 programme also won't meet the criteria for proof required by the system....

I,however use my own eyes and ears as my filters,and these spidey senses tell me that something is amiss sure enough...however it is not within an asses roar of being addressed as the groups involved are highly adept at outmanouvering State Agencies such as the DSP,Revenue or Garda NIB.

Most,if not all of the questionable recipients of "Payments" (Not all of which can be calassified as "Dole") will have significant experience of how to operate such systems from their (often extensive) travels throughout Europe....I'm afraid even attempting to address the issue involves upping our administrative game to a degree which does not sit well with our National desire to be seen as a progressive,caring,sharing democracy etc etc etc...:o

Good luck with your Crusade....You'll need it !!

Godge

AlekSmart wrote: »

I rather suspect,Chopper6,that you will get a lash of the moderators crozier over your use of the word "all" as in "all of the time".

Additionally you'll most likely get a concurrent lash for tending to agree with fliball's use of the term "Dole".

The TV3 programme also won't meet the criteria for proof required by the system....

I,however use my own eyes and ears as my filters,and these spidey senses tell me that something is amiss sure enough...however it is not within an asses roar of being addressed as the groups involved are highly adept at outmanouvering State Agencies such as the DSP,Revenue or Garda NIB.

Most,if not all of the questionable recipients of "Payments" (Not all of which can be calassified as "Dole") will have significant experience of how to operate such systems from their (often extensive) travels throughout Europe....I'm afraid even attempting to address the issue involves upping our administrative game to a degree which does not sit well with our National desire to be seen as a progressive,caring,sharing democracy etc etc etc...:o

Good luck with your Crusade....You'll need it !!

The problem with the Irish mentality is that you will find it very easy politically to find lots of people who will say we should tighten up the rules to stop all the Roma/foreigners/whatever coming over here to claim the dole/disability/child benefit etc. but as soon as the same tightening of the rules means that Mary down the road won't get her payment, there is outrage.

The rules are the rules. If we change them, it will affect many.

wotaccent

fliball123 wrote: »

Can people from other countries just show up and claim the dole in Ireland without working?

No. They have to have been in full-time employment for at least 2 years before they can claim either JB or JA.

K-9

AlekSmart wrote: »

Additionally you'll most likely get a concurrent lash for tending to agree with fliball's use of the term "Dole".

I don't think I've ever seen a mod take issue with what a user means when they say dole!

maninasia

chopper6 wrote: »

Romas appear to do it all the time.

You can't claim the dole by just turning up in Ireland.
That's simply a lie. Check social welfare regulations.

ILikeBananas

lol at providing a link to a TV3 expose as proof of anything. You may as well have included a link to The Daily Mail as well.

DebDynamite

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

When you are working, nothing is free. with 6 kids more than likly at least one is in college, even at 2nd level it is often costing at least 100/child in hidden fees, primary schools look for funds as well. School booketc all cost money. Biggest issue is often cost of working, if travelling any distance it may be costing you 150/ week between repayments, fuel and maintenance costs. The other issue with that may childern you would need a VW caravell as a farmily car. Even people carriers are horrendusly expensive. It is frightening the cost of running of transport in ireland. In the sticks there is no public transport. School transport for this family is more than likly over 1K/year

If they have a couple of kids in college, that would suggest they're an older couple, not a young couple who might've bought a house in the boom years. So how much can their mortgage really be costing them, seeing as they live in Connaught?

Farmer Pudsey

DebDynamite wrote: »

If they have a couple of kids in college, that would suggest they're an older couple, not a young couple who might've bought a house in the boom years. So how much can their mortgage really be costing them, seeing as they live in Connaught?

Also this confuses me:



"childcare", "working people with kids"? She's a stay at home mother so what expenses is she talking about?

Also "mortages" (plural) suggests they have at least another mortgage besides their PPR. Did they try to become property magnates during the CT years?

They may well have moved house during the boom. It may have been the case that with a large family they felt that they needed to have a larger house. However they may even have a 30 year mortgage from the late 90's some of which have been hid hard by the rise in variable rate's. I am just dealing with the facts as presented. The real issue is the insanity of the way welfare/education grant scheme is structure and the way it hits those just above the income limits. I know a couple that have a hard choice to make this year as there second child will be going to 3rd level and this child ( expectation 500 points+) wants to pursue a course in Dublin and they feel they cannot afford it.

In the second I was posting about issue facing workers and working couples in general. And I was using the plural of mortgage as I was using the plural of workers at the time I think.

AlekSmart

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

They may well have moved house during the boom. It may have been the case that with a large family they felt that they needed to have a larger house. However they may even have a 30 year mortgage from the late 90's some of which have been hid hard by the rise in variable rate's. I am just dealing with the facts as presented. The real issue is the insanity of the way welfare/education grant scheme is structure and the way it hits those just above the income limits. I know a couple that have a hard choice to make this year as there second child will be going to 3rd level and this child ( expectation 500 points+) wants to pursue a course in Dublin and they feel they cannot afford it.

In the second I was posting about issue facing workers and working couples in general. And I was using the plural of mortgage as I was using the plural of workers at the time I think.

It's very clear to me,your farmership,what your point was..the nitpicking over grammar serves only to deflect attention from your core point.

The huge skew in our 3rd Level which favours and facilitates only the Self-Employed/Proffessional and the Welfare Recipient ensures that the "Contributing Classes" will rarely be able to afford sending their children to a Third Level.

I'm not quite certain WHY succesive Governments have continued with this scheme,other than to benefit the main constituents of Dáil Eireann itself....Self Employed/Professionals......:(

DebDynamite

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

In the second I was posting about issue facing workers and working couples in general. And I was using the plural of mortgage as I was using the plural of workers at the time I think.

Apologies, I thought the bit I quoted was taken directly from the letter written to David McWilliams. It was actually DMcW saying it, not the lady who wrote the letter. I've edited my post above.

fliball123

wotaccent wrote: »

No. They have to have been in full-time employment for at least 2 years before they can claim either JB or JA.

I do believe they can get some type of assistance do maybe not the JA or JB

AlekSmart

fliball123 wrote: »

I do believe they can get some type of assistance do maybe not the JA or JB

You do believe correctly Fliball123.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/supplementary_welfare_schemes/exceptional_needs_payments.html

Exceptional Needs Payment and Urgent Needs Payment are payments under the Supplementary Welfare Allowance Scheme. You do not have to meet the habitual residence condition to qualify for either of these payments.

The actual working definition of these schemes has been tightened up in recent years,however as the preferred means of gaining initial access to the Welfare System as a whole,it has been fully utilized.

The key to the effective monitoring and protection of any such schemes,in order to ensure that those who have contributed to their operation may avail of their benefits if necessary,is in establishing a very full Identity Verification system.

This Positive ID Vetting is currently being (Slowly) rolled out via the DSFP's own Services Card,supported by parallell ID Verification systems for Driving Licence holders and Professional Drivers Qualification Card.

However,these processes are slow and remain subject to arguement and resistance from many Liberal Groupings in respect of their use for "Monitoring" the activities of "Free " people.

The issue has'nt and won't,simply go away,so it has to either be fully addressed or fully funded...OUR Choice really......;)

Idbatterim

The huge skew in our 3rd Level which favours and facilitates only the Self-Employed/Proffessional and the Welfare Recipient ensures that the "Contributing Classes" will rarely be able to afford sending their children to a Third Level.

Can you elaborate on this please, are you implying that all self employed are creaming it off and if so, would they come under your "contributing classes" criteria?

AlekSmart

Idbatterim wrote: »

Can you elaborate on this please, are you implying that all self employed are creaming it off and if so, would they come under your "contributing classes" criteria?

Nope,far from it,however the ability of a self-employed person to structure their tax-affairs in a more targetted manner is one of the major benefits of being self-employed.

Some of my self-employed friends have just endured five years of absolute hell as they attempted to keep their businesses and lives together,whilst I as an employed person enjoyed a degree of protection from that insecurity.

However that does not take away from the reality that a middle income,Blue Collar PAYE employee will find it extremely difficult to qualify their children for the Grant,whilst a Self Employed/Farmer/Professional,with appropriate Accountancy advice will usually outflank the SUSI system.

One only has to see the savage rapidity of the response to Ruari Quinns floated notion of allocating a notional value to Farming Land to appreciate where the true power-base lies within the houses of An tOireachtas.

Even the manner in which SUSI effectively conceal the Actual Income limits for each given year fails to provide any great assurance of transparancy.

A P60 based "Household" income of €48,000 P.A. is enough to rule a student out straight away,an income threshold which,if persisted with,will return 3rd Level Education to being the preserve of the well-heeled & articulate rather than facilitating the childer of the great unwashed ?

Farmer Pudsey

Idbatterim wrote: »

Can you elaborate on this please, are you implying that all self employed are creaming it off and if so, would they come under your "contributing classes" criteria?

Means testing in general works against those in the PAYE sector. 3rd level grants are not the only issue. For means test to save the government money threshold must be set quite low. Historically it has been shown that an employer can often qualify while an employee cannot. This is a reason that I oppose the means testing of children allowance as again it would be PAYE workers that would lose out.

The real issue is that those who contribute in tax cannot access educational grants. 50K/year is not a huge household income. It is approximately 1.5 tomes the average industrial wage. On top of that it hits PAYE workers at lower levers as it is total income of the qualifying student and their parents. Take a family with two earners on modest income of 23K/year each on the face of it you might think that these people might qualify, however if the student has a part time job earning 4K/year they are back without the grant.

This again discourages students on the grant from working in Ireland. It can lead to a easy street type of atitude by some students where they will spend the summer in the US or in a southern european country while a PAYE income earner's child with no grant on modest incomes will struggle to fund college.

AlekSmart

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The real issue is that those who contribute in tax cannot access educational grants. 50K/year is not a huge household income. It is approximately 1.5 tomes the average industrial wage.

On top of that it hits PAYE workers at lower levels as it is total income of the qualifying student and their parents.

Take a family with two earners on modest income of 23K/year each on the face of it you might think that these people might qualify, however if the student has a part time job earning 4K/year they are back without the grant.

This again discourages students on the grant from working in Ireland. It can lead to a easy street type of atitude by some students where they will spend the summer in the US or in a southern european country while a PAYE income earner's child with no grant on modest incomes will struggle to fund college.

The nub of the issue in a single post...well put Sir !

The SUSI criteria which uses Total HOUSEHOLD income as it's basis is incredibly unjust to the "ordinary" PAYE worker,aside from the lack of any meaningful deductions,as you suggest it immediately sets the Student on a precarious path in terms of work-ethic.

wotaccent

AlekSmart wrote: »

You do believe correctly Fliball123.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/supplementary_welfare_schemes/exceptional_needs_payments.html



The actual working definition of these schemes has been tightened up in recent years,however as the preferred means of gaining initial access to the Welfare System as a whole,it has been fully utilized.

The key to the effective monitoring and protection of any such schemes,in order to ensure that those who have contributed to their operation may avail of their benefits if necessary,is in establishing a very full Identity Verification system.

This Positive ID Vetting is currently being (Slowly) rolled out via the DSFP's own Services Card,supported by parallell ID Verification systems for Driving Licence holders and Professional Drivers Qualification Card.

However,these processes are slow and remain subject to arguement and resistance from many Liberal Groupings in respect of their use for "Monitoring" the activities of "Free " people.

The issue has'nt and won't,simply go away,so it has to either be fully addressed or fully funded...OUR Choice really......;)

I genuinely cannot understand why someone does not have to satisfy the habitual residency clause to access this payment. Surely any social welfare payment, even if a once-off, should only be available to those who live and work in the country. It does not make sense. I just might understand the funeral side, but paying for cooking utensils when setting up home? I am NOT talking about long-time residents, irish or otherwise, but those who would not satisfy the HR clause. Who in the world comes up with these things?

I also cannot understand why some people would have an issue with ID cards. I've lived in countries where it's the norm, and it's just part of the purse/wallet. We use ATMs, the internet, social welfare cards, passports, driving licences...what's the difference?

AlekSmart

creedp wrote: »

That's not mutually exclusive with having a strong work ethic. Indeed it could be argued that the current SW system encourages people to be in both camps simultaneously.

Perhaps sometimes,it's necesssary to attempt to de-systemize the thing...:)

I came across this thread on the Biz forum that has me really bamboozled in so many ways.....

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057180826

Is this the "Entitlement" mentioned as the core issue here,or is this about Individuality,Independence and the State's obligation to provide for it's children etc....?

I suppose I'm asking if the Donegal situation can be relevant,in any way, to this thread...or is it a TOTALLY unrelated issue ?

golfwallah

It's refreshing to see at least one Labour Councillor, Richard Humphreys, having the courage to stick his head above the parapet, calling for Welfare (and Justice) System Reform.

In his article in yesterday's Sunday Independent, among other things he says that the welfare system should always contain the incentive to work:

But we cannot any longer postpone the need for ambition for root-and-branch changes. Take for example our social welfare and criminal justice systems. Despite some recent changes, the social welfare system still promotes dependency in many respects.

Furthermore, there seems to be very little discussion of how the social welfare system contributes to breaking up families, by paying parents to live apart from each other.

We should take an open-minded look at how the British welfare secretary Iain Duncan Smith has fundamentally reorganised their welfare system around the principle that there should always be an incentive to work.

Given the continued impaired economic situation, that is likely to last for years to come, isn't it time for government to replace spin defending the status quo and, at least start the public debate on making welfare a ladder out of dependency rather than a trap to keep people in it?

AlekSmart

golfwallah wrote: »

It's refreshing to see at least one Labour Councillor, Richard Humphreys, having the courage to stick his head above the parapet, calling for Welfare (and Justice) System Reform.

In his article in yesterday's Sunday Independent, among other things he says that the welfare system should always contain the incentive to work:

Given the continued impaired economic situation, that is likely to last for years to come, isn't it time for government to replace spin defending the status quo and, at least start the public debate on making welfare a ladder out of dependency rather than a trap to keep people in it?

A significant issue in "Our" system is the extent to which Benefit Payment levels were allowed to rise to....The Beastly Brits,at their best,never allowed their rates to become so significant.

golfwallah

AlekSmart wrote: »

A significant issue in "Our" system is the extent to which Benefit Payment levels were allowed to rise to....The Beastly Brits,at their best,never allowed their rates to become so significant.

True.

But I prefer to focus on what is needed to make change happen. And the way I see it is to promote public debate on the issue of the welfare trap.

There are alternatives such as are being implemented in other EU states like the UK and Holland, where the system is being changed to incentivize work over welfare. Savings can be used to invest in wealth generating activities and/or to reduce our huge debt overhang.

You have to start somewhere and as politicians are generally followers rather than leaders, they will only respond to public pressure for change.

So more openness and public debate is required on key issues like social welfare costs and alternatives, to have a positive impact on the long-term economic well-being of the majority in this country.