Eurovision Song Contest 2014

Go Harvey Go

gavmcg92 wrote: »

Lipstick has been the only song that has pushed us out of our comfort zone. It was catchy, modern and bold.

Not bold enough, however, to finish higher than 8th and less than 102 points behind the not-so-catchy "Running Scared"...

It was 3rd at one point, however, before the points dried up - much to the relief of the higher management at Montrose, I presume.

For the past two years Ireland has gotten much better scores from the televoters than the juries.
2012 - Waterline came 10th with the televoters but 25th (only above Englebert!) with the juries.
2013 - Ryan Dolan had the 14th best average rank with the televoters (he did better than Germany or Sweden) but 23rd with the juries.

So really it's all a big anti-Irish conspiracy from the juries who can't stand that we've won it more times than anyone else!

gavmcg92

Go Harvey Go wrote: »

Not bold enough, however, to finish higher than 8th and less than 102 points behind the not-so-catchy "Running Scared"...

Well you have me with Azerbaijan, I have no idea why they always rank high. Perhaps it's something to do with the scamming they were suspected of partaking in

I think what's undeniable is that we have yet to send a song that has a chance of winning in the modern version of the competition.

Deleted User wrote: »

For the past two years Ireland has gotten much better scores from the televoters than the juries.

I think that comes back to what I was talking about before. We're deadset on sticking to a standard pop song template that the more musically inclined judges are tired of.

Bottleopener

gavmcg92 wrote: »

I think that comes back to what I was talking about before. We're deadset on sticking to a standard pop song template that the more musically inclined judges are tired of.

Which is precisely why I think we're in major trouble this year. Big difference between Armenia, Greece, Hungary that you mentioned is that you know, they're sending artists who are actually reasonably known/respected in their local scene. To compare with Hungary further, I was at a music festival over there last year and their last two acts had pretty decent slots playing at it. Can you imagine Kasey Smith/Ryan Dolan ever playing Electric Picnic for example? :P. The idea is even laughable.

We also need to look to whats popular HERE. What part of our music market does best. Netherlands used to do what we do right now, and managed to DNQ every year since 2005-2012.

Their solution - send Anouk, one of their most popular/respected artists last year with a completely offbeat song not specifically written for Eurovision - which was not a typical Eurovision song in the slightest. Their result? Their first qualification in years and a top 10 result - with a song they would've previously rubbished as "not being for Eurovision". The Netherlands have repeated this tactic this year, and sent The Common Linnets, consisting of two musically renowned artists in Ilse and Waylon - they may not be setting bookies alight, but I can see them doing surprisingly well next month (In a similar manner to ByeAlex for Hungary last year).

The idea that songs "aren't for Eurovision" is a myth, and is why Ireland consistently perform poorly - we're stuck in this mindset that we have to pick our song with Eurovision in mind. We can learn a lot from The Netherlands' approach. We have a strong singer-songwriter culture/indie/electronic music scene here in Ireland - why not use it. Go outside the box and send something thats current here, and not try and mirror whats popular in other markets/what we think is "good for Eurovision".

gavmcg92

gavmcg92 wrote: »

I think that comes back to what I was talking about before. We're deadset on sticking to a standard pop song template that the more musically inclined judges are tired of.

That is fair but I guess it's safer to err on the side of caution than to go totally out there and submit something that's very bold but esoteric (like Georgia have done this year!! I really admire their song but it seems that I'm in a minority)

At any rate, there is one tragedy this year; for the first time in many MANY years, the UK have us beaten! All due respect to Kasey and Can Linn, but I'm a big fan of Molly's song. And, even more than that, I'm a huge fan of her voice! She's like a cross between Ellie Goulding and Cyndi Lauper......I'm quite interested to hear what she produces in the future!!

gavmcg92

Bottleopener wrote: »

...

Completely agree with you. However, I disagree with the notion that the artists have to be well known. I don't know any of the artists performing this year, nor did I know any from previous years, except for the likes of Niamh Kavanagh, Engelbert Humperdinck, Jedward, Blue etc.

For me it all comes down to quality. The song from the Netherlands last year, while I didn't like it, was really well written with a fantastic stage setup. Even if we wanted to send an established artist, we would have a very hard time getting one to go.

I think the UK have done a great job this year. They have a top 3 song, for me, and a quality artist singing it

Deleted User wrote: »

That is fair but I guess it's safer to err on the side of caution than to go totally out there and submit something that's very bold but esoteric (like Georgia have done this year!! I really admire their song but it seems that I'm in a minority)

Why not? It's just an entertainment show. The worst case scenario is that we only get to perform in the semi. It annoys me the way they look at this competition. You get the impression that we're just filler for the other countries that are actually trying new things.

Galvasean

gavmcg92 wrote: »

Quick question, why were we not at eurovision in concert this year? Did we decide not to take part in the concert this year? It's always a nice beginning to the event and gives you a chance to see how far acts have come since national finals.

Budget is the reason being given. There was uproar at how much money was spent promoting last year's entry around Europe. I read that Romania look set to spend close to a quarter of a million on promotional material in the run up to the Eurovision. If Ireland spent that people would go bloody mental and rightly so.

It probably explains why the Irish video is somewhat basic too. I'm not taking anything away from the people who shot it as the lighting/editing etc. is grand, but the fact that the whole thing is done in one location suggests that time and money were very finite resources. In fact, the numbers I've heard quoted are ridiculously low.

Galvasean

Oooh, sneak peek of the stage:

gavmcg92

Galvasean wrote: »

Budget is the reason being given. There was uproar at how much money was spent promoting last year's entry around Europe.

How much was spent last year? Never heard anything about it. It's a shame that we couldn't even make the UK event this year. In saying that, Linda was able to go though :rolleyes:

Galvasean

Isn't Linda hosting some fan event soon? Perhaps the organisers paid her to do it?

Apparently it costed upward of 200k to send the Irish crew to the Eurovision last year:
http://eurovisionireland.net/2013/06/23/ireland-rte-spend-e207000-on-eurovision-2013/
Those figures don't seem to factor in sending the act to other countries for marketing purposes though.


The number was down from over 250k in 2012 and 2011 apparently:
http://wiwibloggs.com/2013/07/03/ireland-was-ryan-dolan-worth-e207754/29164/
http://www.irishmirror.ie/showbiz/irish-showbiz/eurovision-cost-rte-40000-point-1976748

Bottleopener

gavmcg92 wrote: »

Completely agree with you. However, I disagree with the notion that the artists have to be well known. I don't know any of the artists performing this year, nor did I know any from previous years, except for the likes of Niamh Kavanagh, Engelbert Humperdinck, Jedward, Blue etc.

For me it all comes down to quality. The song from the Netherlands last year, while I didn't like it, was really well written with a fantastic stage setup. Even if we wanted to send an established artist, we would have a very hard time getting one to go.

I think the UK have done a great job this year. They have a top 3 song, for me, and a quality artist singing it

Not necessarily well known. Moreso respected in local markets and actually singing a song that'd exist if it wasn't for ESC - the exact opposite to ours are, and I again draw on the music festival comparison - could we genuinely see an artist like Ryan Dolan/Kasey performing a major slot at an Irish music festival?

Finland is another example - Softengine were unknowns pre NF but are performing a song which isn't out of sync with what actually sells in local markets .

---
As for the stage, there was a video floating around last night of Poland and Norway being performed on it with stand in performers. It looks pretty spectacular! =] (Unfortunately it got taken down earlier today though >,<)

yerwanthere123

Both Lena and Emmelie De Forest were amateur performers before Eurovision, which pretty much proves that it doesn't matter how well known or not a performer is. If a song is good enough, it'll win.

gavmcg92

Bottleopener wrote: »

Not necessarily well known. Moreso respected in local markets and actually singing a song that'd exist if it wasn't for ESC - the exact opposite to ours are, and I again draw on the music festival comparison - could we genuinely see an artist like Ryan Dolan/Kasey performing a major slot at an Irish music festival?

Finland is another example - Softengine were unknowns pre NF but are performing a song which isn't out of sync with what actually sells in local markets .

Completely agree with what you're saying. We still have the mindset here that songs that go to the eurovision are eurovision songs when in fact we should be thinking the opposite. Send something that would do well in the charts. The songs we sent it when we won it year in year out were great chart songs.

Galvasean wrote: »

The number was down from over 250k in 2012 and 2011 apparently:
http://wiwibloggs.com/2013/07/03/ireland-was-ryan-dolan-worth-e207754/29164/
http://www.irishmirror.ie/showbiz/irish-showbiz/eurovision-cost-rte-40000-point-1976748

There's no mention in that daily mail piece on how much revenue this competition brings in for RTE. I would imagine if we were losing money by taking part, then we wouldn't attend. I might be wrong but it would be an assumption.

Galvasean

Well, the TV ratings are definitely very high. I have no idea how much that translates to in terms of advert revenue etc. though.

gavmcg92

Is this the stage?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10F3w3wDyL8

Love the backdrop.

Mr.Nice Guy

Saw a vid on Youtube of a podcast by some Eurovision fans on all the Eurovision songs this year. They talk about Ireland in their final section. It's a Finn and two English guys giving their views. Their verdict is we qualify but do poorly in the final. Comments on Ireland from 10:40 in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkPX7LQ9Skg

Some valid points I thought. The other sections are worth a listen too. Don't agree with them on most entries but they look at each one in depth.

gavmcg92

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Saw a vid on Youtube of a podcast by some Eurovision fans on all the Eurovision songs this year. They talk about Ireland in their final section. It's a Finn and two English guys giving their views. Their verdict is we qualify but do poorly in the final. Comments on Ireland from 10:40

Some valid points I thought. The other sections are worth a listen too. Don't agree with them on most entries but they look at each one in depth.

Couldn't agree more with them in relation to our entry. Only had a chance to listen to that much. I especially agree with what the Finn had to add. It's a nice song but it's very repetitive and gets boring quickly. Also the fact that were forcing the celtic hooks so much so that it's over the top and borderline stereotypical. They have their opinions spot on really. I don't think we'll get bottom 3 like they were suspecting but we'll definitely be on the right hand side of the board.

Xenji

Ireland will get into the final this year, but we will not be a contender, the song is vanilla at best and we are hoping on the celtic vibe and imagery to win us over with the judges/televote, it sounds like some bad rehash of a 90's dance anthem. We need to actually get a song that is completely different from what we have done before, forget about the Irish roots and images, the Jedwards and Dustin and completely take them by surprise, something from leftfield that does not resemble what you would hear on a cheap sun holiday and have a more global approach and not just something people from Ireland would understand and get.

Bottleopener

gavmcg92 wrote: »

Is this the stage?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10F3w3wDyL8

Love the backdrop.

Yep thats it! There's a video of Norway's staging floating around too.

Go Harvey Go

Xenji wrote: »

We need to actually get a song that is completely different from what we have done before, forget about the Irish roots and images, the Jedwards and Dustin and completely take them by surprise, something from leftfield that does not resemble what you would hear on a cheap sun holiday and have a more global approach and not just something people from Ireland would understand and get.

I wouldn't disagree.

The folks at Montrose would, though. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Galvasean

Xenji wrote: »

Ireland will get into the final this year, but we will not be a contender, the song is vanilla at best and we are hoping on the celtic vibe and imagery to win us over with the judges/televote, it sounds like some bad rehash of a 90's dance anthem. We need to actually get a song that is completely different from what we have done before, forget about the Irish roots and images, the Jedwards and Dustin and completely take them by surprise, something from leftfield that does not resemble what you would hear on a cheap sun holiday and have a more global approach and not just something people from Ireland would understand and get.

Didn't exactly that win Eurovision 2012?

I think overanalysing Eurovision trends is a tad pointless. Well, maybe not pointless (as it's fun), but not the be all and end all. 2012's winner, for all intents and purposes was as generic as you could imagine in terms of chart music. Some years emulating what's in the charts works, other years people are just sick of that style due to oversaturation and ignore it.
Compare that to Lordi's success. They were a gimmick act that got lucky. On another day they would have been laughed out of the building.
Sometimes it just falls into place and everything goes your way for no obvious reason. In other cases (eg: Ryan Dolan) a song can do inexplicably poorly.

gavmcg92

I would disagree in relation to euphoria. It was a brilliant song that was well produced and is arguably the most successful song in the modern competition when it comes to chart success. Compare euphoria with our entry this year and you see what is meant by it resembling "what you would hear on a cheap sun holiday".

The staging alone on euphoria was quite daring. Instead of opening up the shots to give the viewers an appreciation of the whole stadium, they never left the close up shots, turning it into a some what live music video. If you can't tell, euphoria is one of my favourite entries from the past couple of years. Definitely prefer it to the German, Azerbaijani, Danish and Norwegian winning songs.

BuilderPlumber

Galvasean wrote: »

Didn't exactly that win Eurovision 2012?

I think overanalysing Eurovision trends is a tad pointless. Well, maybe not pointless (as it's fun), but not the be all and end all. 2012's winner, for all intents and purposes was as generic as you could imagine in terms of chart music. Some years emulating what's in the charts works, other years people are just sick of that style due to oversaturation and ignore it.
Compare that to Lordi's success. They were a gimmick act that got lucky. On another day they would have been laughed out of the building.
Sometimes it just falls into place and everything goes your way for no obvious reason. In other cases (eg: Ryan Dolan) a song can do inexplicably poorly.

That is true. Some years, the play it safe song triumphs whereas other times, the adventurous song wins. Personally, I think that the Lordi song was excellent and good fun. Their act that went with it also was very memorable and people who normally didn't watch the Eurovision also liked this song and performance too.

The 2012 winner was nice but nothing out of the ordinary. Same with last years and many others. Norway's Fairytale was a very nice and catchy song that stood out.

As regards Ryan Dolan: he was far from being the worst song, singer and act we sent to the Eurovision. But while he was a good singer, the song was run of the mill and nothing different to numerous others we sent. The ballad a la Johnny Logan's What's another year is the formula for decades. With regard to Logan himself: I'm sure he was asked to participate in it again at some stage but he turned it down. He obviously knows what is best for his career and wants to remain known as a Eurovision winner not loser.

But, that's the point. Ireland won it most often by reinventing themselves. The 1970s winner was an out and out country and western ballad and a style that was popular in many places at the time. It would not have been out of place on a Jim Reeves or Patsy Cline album. By 1980, Johnny Logan won by not copying Dana, but by doing a song that honed in on more contemporary sounds. The power ballad was big in the 1980s and Logan delivered 2 of them very well and professionally and won. By 1992, there was still room for this and it was now time for a female to do it: Thus, Linda Martin got a Logan song and won it. By 1993, Niamh Kavanagh added elements of soul with her entry and won and her being the main singer for the female parts of The Commitments backed up her credentials as well (she deserved better second time around too). But, 1994 was another change of track: how about a duo singing a country-rock flavoured song? Yes, it worked out extremely well and produced another of the best known Irish winners. Finally, it was time to tap into the ethnic revivals that were popular at the competition in the 1990s: thus, Eimear Quinn's Celtic entry came out on top. Marc Roberts nearly did it a few years later. Then, it was mostly downhill. Too formulaic. From Chris Doran to Ryan Dolan, most of the entries were very similar and performed by similar singers: usually, solo male ballad.

But, our invention when we got away from this also proved futile sometimes (Dustin, etc.) but Brian Kennedy's country-soul song, Jedward, Mickey Joe Harte and that's about it did ok in the grand scheme of things.

Ash.J.Williams

By 1980, Johnny Logan won by not copying Dana, but by doing a song that honed in on more contemporary sounds. The power ballad was big in the 1980s and Logan delivered 2 of them very well and professionally

RTE actually believe that ballads will win us the eurovision...that is such a blinkered view and shows how clueless they are. The sentence i quoted above is exactly how to win....but it's obviously not that easy!

gavmcg92

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

RTE actually believe that ballads will win us the eurovision...that is such a blinkered view and shows how clueless they are.

Ballads can still win the competition. It's not like you have to send an untempo number to win.

yerwanthere123

gavmcg92 wrote: »

I would disagree in relation to euphoria. It was a brilliant song that was well produced and is arguably the most successful song in the modern competition when it comes to chart success. Compare euphoria with our entry this year and you see what is meant by it resembling "what you would hear on a cheap sun holiday".

The staging alone on euphoria was quite daring. Instead of opening up the shots to give the viewers an appreciation of the whole stadium, they never left the close up shots, turning it into a some what live music video. If you can't tell, euphoria is one of my favourite entries from the past couple of years. Definitely prefer it to the German, Azerbaijani, Danish and Norwegian winning songs.

Completely agree with you about Euphoria, I would say it's the best winner inside the last 10/15 years. For me, Euphoria actually transcended Eurovision, in so far as it actually became of one of favourite songs of 2012 overall. Normally with a good Eurovision song I might listen to it for a couple of weeks after the competition and not any more. Euphoria I actually still listen to.

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

RTE actually believe that ballads will win us the eurovision...that is such a blinkered view and shows how clueless they are. The sentence i quoted above is exactly how to win....but it's obviously not that easy!

As someone else said, ballads can still win if they're good enough. Molitva in 2007 and Running Scared in 2011 were both ballads. Undo may even do it this year!

Go Harvey Go

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

The 1970s winner was an out and out country and western ballad and a style that was popular in many places at the time. It would not have been out of place on a Jim Reeves or Patsy Cline album.

No disrespect, BuilderPlumber, but "All Kinds of Everything" really wasn't country and western...

If it had been, then there would be a case for considering Dana as a C&W singer. But I don't think I've come across anyone who does consider her that...

By 1993, Niamh Kavanagh added elements of soul with her entry and won and her being the main singer for the female parts of The Commitments backed up her credentials as well (she deserved better second time around too).

It's worth pointing out that Niamh actually didn't run away with it in '93 - another redhead, Sonia, led for the UK throughout the middle stages of the voting.

And of course, there were only 11 points between them when the Maltese jury were called back after technical difficulties prevented them from being reached the first time round...

But, 1994 was another change of track: how about a duo singing a country-rock flavoured song? Yes, it worked out extremely well and produced another of the best known Irish winners.

Merseyside journalist Jamie McLoughlin was understandably apoplectic when Malta awarded those 12 points to Niamh - so it's no surprise that he was even more apoplectic when Messrs Harrington and McGettigan completed the Irish hat-trick...

http://boombangablog.merseyblogs.co.uk/2009/12/eurovision-1994-the-interval-a.html

(Seriously, one should read this blog of his. It's absolutely brilliant.)

Finally, it was time to tap into the ethnic revivals that were popular at the competition in the 1990s: thus, Eimear Quinn's Celtic entry came out on top.

And, like "Rock 'n' Roll Kids", "The Voice" was written by Brendan Graham.

It wasn't the most popular winning song, though - not just with the aforementioned Mr McLoughlin, but with just about everyone who wasn't from Ireland.

And I don't think it went down too well with the RTE accountants, either...

Gina G's "Ooh Aah Just A Little Bit" was considerably more popular, even though it only finished 8th.

Marc Roberts nearly did it a few years later.

The very next year, in fact, when he finished second but a full 70 points behind Katrina and the Waves.

gavmcg92

Just going through my first listen of semi final one. Very funny how you can see how the previous winner has influenced songs this year. A lot of big drums and celtic instruments being used for some of them.

Right. Here they are. My favourites, not how I think it's going to play out (Obviously hinting at a Russian qualification, even though their song sucks)

Semi Final 1
1) Armenia
2) Sweden
3) Belgium
4) Netherlands
5) Iceland
6) Hungary
7) Azerbaijan
8) Albania
9) Moldova
10) Ukraine

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Final/Cut
11) Estonia
12) Montenegro
13) Portugal
14) Russia
15) San Marino
16) Latvia ("The great latvian bake off" must have been a hit show on Latvian tv this year)

So what do you guys think?

There are a lot of similar sound songs in this semi. A lot of dubstep, drum and bass, which I think helped out Azerbijhan in my placing. I've no real fondness for their song, nor do I any year, but the similarities with a lot of the songs sort of had me tossing a lot of them to the sides.

The Albanian song is really growing on me. They always send something different. Loved their entry last year too. Reminds me of someone like Creed or that kind of rock. Also really like the entry from The Netherlands this year. Sounds like a song that could very easily have been written for the likes of Fleetwood Mac or for a more modern country band like Lady Antebellum.

As for the top three. Sweden was my top, like so many others, but I think I'm starting to get bored of it. I'm pretty sure it's going to be a top three song this year, maybe even win it if it's staged correctly. However, I've probably heard it the most out of any entries and I'm over it. The Armenian entry, while I hate his supporters on the likes of youtube, is something special. It has that nice Ballad start to it and then it opens up to an awesome dubstep track. It's one of the favourites and I've no doubt that it will rank high.

The Icelandic track is the one that really stands out. It's complete different to all the rest. It's fun and energetic. I can see it surpassing Hungary in my list come the semi final night.

gavmcg92

gavmcg92 wrote: »

Just going through my first listen of semi final one. Very funny how you can see how the previous winner has influenced songs this year. A lot of big drums and celtic instruments being used for some of them.

Right. Here they are. My favourites, not how I think it's going to play out (Obviously hinting at a Russian qualification, even though their song sucks)

Semi Final 1
1) Armenia
2) Sweden
3) Belgium
4) Netherlands
5) Iceland
6) Hungary
7) Azerbaijan
8) Albania
9) Moldova
10) Ukraine

---

Final/Cut
11) Estonia
12) Montenegro
13) Portugal
14) Russia
15) San Marino
16) Latvia ("The great latvian bake off" must have been a hit show on Latvian tv this year)

So what do you guys think?

I already listed my predictions here but in terms of my personal preferences, I'd rank the semi-one songs as follows:

1. The Netherlands (a lovely country song that manages to be classy and not boring or twee. I could see this song being huge in the U.S. but sadly bombing at ESC. )
2. Armenia (would be a worthy winner of the contest)
3. Azerbaijan (this is the only SF1 song that has grown on me. I really like her voice)
4. Albania (this was one of my favourites when it was in Albanian. Sadly the English version just isn't as good)
5. Moldova
6. Iceland
7. San Marino (moreso for Valentina rather than the song itself)
*at this point, I lose interest, because every song below this ranks beneath every song in Semi Final Two*
8. Hungary (good singer, ok melody, awful lyrics)
9. Belgium (see above)
10. Montenegro

---

11. Russia
12. Ukraine
13. Sweden (still think this is insanely overrated)
14. Estonia
15. Portugal
16. Latvia

As I said before, Semi Final Two has much better quality than this one imo.

BuilderPlumber

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Saw a vid on Youtube of a podcast by some Eurovision fans on all the Eurovision songs this year. They talk about Ireland in their final section. It's a Finn and two English guys giving their views. Their verdict is we qualify but do poorly in the final. Comments on Ireland from 10:40 in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkPX7LQ9Skg

Some valid points I thought. The other sections are worth a listen too. Don't agree with them on most entries but they look at each one in depth.

I think that is a very accurate prediction. More than likely, we will see a repeat of the Ryan Dolan situation. We will come out of the semis, then do poorly as predicted above in the final. Bottom 5 as per usual surely?