sub 3 hour marathon,what does it take?

robinph

Just went and checked my Garmin stats from DCM 2010 where I first broke 3hrs with a 2:58:54 and my average pace on the Garmin was 6:48. Was a bit of variation of pace on some individual miles, but it was overall pretty consistent throughout and I was tracking the pacers as much as possible on that race. I'd put the variation down to the GPS more than anything else.

TFBubendorfer

Same here. I ran my first sub-3 in 2:59:35 a few years ago and the Garmin showed 6:48 average pace.

Peterx

robinph wrote: »

6:46 is a smidgin faster than you want to be going for the first 10km of a sub 3 attmpt, but not so much that you should be overly concerned about it. As everyone is aware the pacing can be difficult, that is why people want to run with pacers so that they are there to do the thinking for you as they are running below what they are capable of and you can just follow.
Once you start behind the pacers though, if they are doing a touch fast at the start which is very easy to do in the crowds when they have a bunch of people snapping at their heels, you will still be in sight of them at the 10km mark if you happen to have run exactly 6:51. Then you just gradually reel them back in over the next 30km and beat them to the finish line.

I think you'd want to be hitting something like 6:48 pace all the way round to be sure of a sub 3 time at the end once you allow for the extra distance and GPS inaccuracies, so they were really only a very tiny amount ahead of schedule.

edit - I'm equally of the opinion more people managed a sub 3 due to the pacers then would have on their own

The pacers do an amazing job and different people have different strategies and methods for getting through the event
I'm very wary of slagging off anyone which is not what I'm about here so on a constructive criticism note
: in my opinion the first two of the three hour pacers had banked a very tiny amount too much time by mile 7 which potentially had overcooked some of their followers. I was running relatively even splits for a 2.56 or 2.57 and only passed them at mile 8.

AdpRo

Off topic but as we are talking about the 3 hour pacers (who I also agree do a great job), from where I was watching on Roebuck the 3rd pacer seemed to have fallen well back (up to 3 mins) from the other 2, either he was struggling and falling back or the others were too fast!

28064212

Weetabix wrote: »

Off topic but as we are talking about the 3 hour pacers (who I also agree do a great job), from where I was watching on Roebuck the 3rd pacer seemed to have fallen well back (up to 3 mins) from the other 2, either he was struggling and falling back or the others were too fast!

Yeah, I caught up to him (gave me a very brief moment of amazement before I realized he was on his own). He picked up an injury around 16 miles (I think), was falling back from then on

Kissy Lips

28064212 wrote: »

Yeah, I caught up to him (gave me a very brief moment of amazement before I realized he was on his own). He picked up an injury around 16 miles (I think), was falling back from then on

He should have taken off the 3 hour flag or stopped otherwise, like you it gives a false sense of achievement.

TFBubendorfer

Yes, one of the 3 hours pacer got into trouble, as did one of the 3:10 pacers. That's why there are 3 or 4 pacers per group.

Kissy Lips wrote: »

He should have taken off the 3 hour flag or stopped otherwise, like you it gives a false sense of achievement.

I'm pretty sure every runner who came across him would have been fully aware that he was clearly not at 3:00 pace any more.

Gavlor

The 3 hour pacers had a great system and did a top job. Take a look at the number of runners that came in under the 3hr mark

Kissy Lips

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Yes, one of the 3 hours pacer got into trouble, as did one of the 3:10 pacers. That's why there are 3 or 4 pacers per group.



I'm pretty sure every runner who came across him would have been fully aware that he was clearly not at 3:00 pace any more.

Im pretty sure every runner wouldn't. Most will cop. Think about someone targeting a negative split. Lets the leash off the 3 hour pacers early and then reals them back in. Spots the failing 3 hour pacer and keeps pace with him for a while jeopardising his chances. After some time he will realise this guy is not pacing anymore but that is only after wasting valuable minutes. Again, he should have removed the flag or dropped out.

TFBubendorfer

You can come up with all sorts of unlikely scenarios if you want. Fine. But the vast majority of runners who are able to run a sub-3 marathon know their pace very well and can tell if they're running 6:50 or 7:50 pace, which is what that sub-3 pacer did over the last 10 miles.

Kissy Lips

that is just complacent.

KielyUnusual

As one of the pacers this year, I thought I'd give a little feedback. I was the third pacer most of the way, second when one of the pacers had a little trouble and fell off the pace. The other guys were a little bit ahead of me over the first few miles but always in sight. They might have been 45s to a minute ahead but no more. Nothing I think that would have caused too much issues.

In respect to the pacer that fell off the pace, in an ideal world I think he would have taken off his flag but he was obviously in a bit of trouble so probably wasn't thinking as straight as normal. I'm sure a lot of people who have had trouble in marathons could relate to this. Fortunately, I don't think it would have had a big effect on anyone's race. Runner's at that end of the field are well aware of what pace they should be running and one in a hundred don't have a Garmin for constant feedback.

thebackbar

KielyUnusual wrote: »

As one of the pacers this year, I thought I'd give a little feedback. I was the third pacer most of the way, second when one of the pacers had a little trouble and fell off the pace. The other guys were a little bit ahead of me over the first few miles but always in sight. They might have been 45s to a minute ahead but no more. Nothing I think that would have caused too much issues.

In respect to the pacer that fell off the pace, in an ideal world I think he would have taken off his flag but he was obviously in a bit of trouble so probably wasn't thinking as straight as normal. I'm sure a lot of people who have had trouble in marathons could relate to this. Fortunately, I don't think it would have had a big effect on anyone's race. Runner's at that end of the field are well aware of what pace they should be running and one in a hundred don't have a Garmin for constant feedback.

Thanks for the feedback folks ! To be honest i wish i had stuck with you instead of the other two pacers, imho opinion i think you nailed it re pacing the race. I appreciate though that its a difficult job, so i don't want to be seen to be knocking the other two pacemakers. It was very congested around the sub 3hr marker, and some people did fall in the congestion. In future i would advice people that the pacemakers for sub 3hr will be targeting a 6.45 pace. For people on the border line of sub 3, there is a huge difference between a 6.45 and 6.50 space, especially over the first 10km.

robinph

6:50 pace won't cut it for a sub 3 attempt.

I only did the one pacing gig so far, but when you are running along with a thousand eager people snapping at your heels but a clear road infront it takes some control to not just put the foot down to try and get away from the hungry horde. I think the only way to try and make people spread out is for the pacers to spread themselves out as well over a hundred meters or so, you then hopefully keep a few more stragglers going as they get picked up by the tail pace runner, but you are also keeping people from going too nuts at the front as nobody wants to get infront of the first of the pacers.

I know from when I did my sub 3 in Dublin it was the tail runner of the pacers that kept me going and meant I made the target, despite having lost the plot slightly when the first guy went past me around mile 20 whilst I felt awful and couldn't keep with that group. Both were doing the same speed, it was just down to when in my day that I encountered them, but both were needed and the being spread out a bit along the road is what was needed.

Krusty_Clown

thebackbar wrote: »

In future i would advice people that the pacemakers for sub 3hr will be targeting a 6.45 pace. For people on the border line of sub 3, there is a huge difference between a 6.45 and 6.50 space, especially over the first 10km.

Hi the backbar, I'm not sure you're fully grasping the point that's being made. The pacers are not targeting a 6:45 pace. Instead they are targeting a pace that will see them cross the finish line in 02:59:30 (give or take a few seconds). That is an actual pace of 6:51/mile. The pacers use a combination of factors to establish their pace, including: Garmin pace (completely unreliable), course mile-markers (only as reliable as the positioning of the mile markers), and experience. While the goal is to run even splits for every single mile, the reality is that at 6:50/mile pace, it is a pretty significant challenge. Crowd congestion, runner feedback, wind, uphills, downhills, Garmin inaccuracy, misplaced mile markers, all contribute to making it a demanding challenge.

The first five miles of DCM are fast. This was particularly true on Monday, where we were not facing into a head-wind over those early miles. The optimal strategy (for someone not trying to make even mile splits over the length of the course) is to take advantage of favourable conditions in order to run an even-effort race. This means running slightly faster with the wind behind you, slower into a head-wind; faster on the downhills, slower on the uphills. So while the first 10km may have been fast, it should have been achievable, if you were suitably trained for your target.

I have paced sub-3 marathons before, and from my experience, I would hazard a guess that there is a drop -off rate of approximately 50-60%. Why such a high rate?

• Runners train based on the marathon pace displayed on their Garmins, which is not fast enough to reflect reality.
• Runners do not leave themselves any margin for error - they train for a target like 2:59:50, which leaves them with little wriggle room for any external factors along the way (wind, low-points, under-hydration, toilet breaks, shoe-laces, heat, etc. etc.). IMHO, if you want to break 3 hours, you should be training to achieve a 2:55 marathon
• Runners who are used to running at their own pace struggle when running at others paces. Some people (like me) just aren't suitable targets for being paced, needing instead to run at our own pace.
• Runners simply don't do adequate training
• Runners get unlucky on the day

At the end of the day, we have to take responsibility for our own successes and failures. Until we do, it is impossible to diagnose what went wrong and make the necessary adjustments to our plans to ensure success the next time around. Perhaps success lies in running more miles. Perhaps in ignoring the Garmin. Perhaps even in ignoring the pacers, but as long as we look outwards, for the solution nothing will change.

blockic

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi the backbar, I'm not sure you're fully grasping the point that's being made. The pacers are not targeting a 6:45 pace. Instead they are targeting a pace that will see them cross the finish line in 02:59:30 (give or take a few seconds). That is an actual pace of 6:51/mile. The pacers use a combination of factors to establish their pace, including: Garmin pace (completely unreliable), course mile-markers (only as reliable as the positioning of the mile markers), and experience. While the goal is to run even splits for every single mile, the reality is that at 6:50/mile pace, it is a pretty significant challenge. Crowd congestion, runner feedback, wind, uphills, downhills, Garmin inaccuracy, misplaced mile markers, all contribute to making it a demanding challenge.

• Runners train based on the marathon pace displayed on their Garmins, which is not fast enough to reflect reality.
• Runners do not leave themselves any margin for error - they train for a target like 2:59:50, which leaves them with little wriggle room for any external factors along the way (wind, low-points, under-hydration, toilet breaks, shoe-laces, heat, etc. etc.). IMHO, if you want to break 3 hours, you should be training to achieve a 2:55 marathon

Excellent post and the above hits the nail completely on the head!

Running Fool

So let's say right now. For me I want to be lining up at DCM'14 cracking sub3. I plan to run a spring marathon(Cork/Kildare maybe?) where I wanna try it also. But in theory right now, over winter. Whats the smart thing to be doing?

In my (limited experience) I would think take 1 week off now, start back slowly training for shorter distances to get my 5k/10k times etc way down, in spring start a P+D plan for the Spring marathon?

Clearlier

Running Fool wrote: »

So let's say right now. For me I want to be lining up at DCM'14 cracking sub3. I plan to run a spring marathon(Cork/Kildare maybe?) where I wanna try it also. But in theory right now, over winter. Whats the smart thing to be doing?

In my (limited experience) I would think take 1 week off now, start back slowly training for shorter distances to get my 5k/10k times etc way down, in spring start a P+D plan for the Spring marathon?

How does your speed relate to your endurance? If, like most people, your speed is better than your endurance then you'll want to spend some time building up the number of miles that you run. If however you can go all day and convert your times at shorter distances well to the longer distances (there are various online calculators that you can use to check this) then you'll benefit more from bringing down your 5k/10k times down.

Running Fool

Clearlier wrote: »

How does your speed relate to your endurance? If, like most people, your speed is better than your endurance then you'll want to spend some time building up the number of miles that you run. If however you can go all day and convert your times at shorter distances well to the longer distances (there are various online calculators that you can use to check this) then you'll benefit more from bringing down your 5k/10k times down.

I'd need to increase speed as well as endurance. My training for DCM'13 was hampered by crazy work issues across the summer and Sept that are now more or less sorted. But I'd need to increase my speed to be running 6.45 miles or so so. I know last weekend I began to really break down after 20miles. I know eveyrbody does but I really did more than usual I think.

My PB is 3.30 so it's a big jump to sub 3 but I have the time and dedication ahead so just want to give it the best I can get. In theory I'll have 2 strong tries at it next year at least, a spring marathon and DCM'14, and longer if needed, but want to get right into it.

It's really this period now over mid Nov/Dec and into Jan that I'm kind of clueless what to be doing.

Clearlier

Running Fool wrote: »

I'd need to increase speed as well as endurance. My training for DCM'13 was hampered by crazy work issues across the summer and Sept that are now more or less sorted. But I'd need to increase my speed to be running 6.45 miles or so so. I know last weekend I began to really break down after 20miles. I know eveyrbody does but I really did more than usual I think.

My PB is 3.30 so it's a big jump to sub 3 but I have the time and dedication ahead so just want to give it the best I can get. In theory I'll have 2 strong tries at it next year at least, a spring marathon and DCM'14, and longer if needed, but want to get right into it.

It's really this period now over mid Nov/Dec and into Jan that I'm kind of clueless what to be doing.

The easy answer is keep doing what you're doing and gradually increase the amount of it but I'm happy to give some more specific thoughts if you can provide me with some more information.

Can you give me a couple of PB's for shorter distances (5k, 10k, half)? Also, what has your training been like for the past 6 months? If the past 6 months doesn't represent your heaviest training load what was it, when was it and how did you manage it (injuries, tiredness, etc.)?

Are you set on running a spring marathon or would you take a different approach to improve your chances of a sub-3 in DCM '14?

ooter

I definitely need to work on my endurance because my times over shorter distances are pretty good.I'm going to gradually build things up over the next couple of months and then in the new year get in a good 6 month base of 30-35 miles a week and decide on my plan of action then for DCM 14.

blockic

ooter wrote: »

I definitely need to work on my endurance because my times over shorter distances are pretty good.I'm going to gradually build things up over the next couple of months and then in the new year get in a good 6 month base of 30-35 miles a week and decide on my plan of action then for DCM 14.

I'd probably suggest to try build up slowly to 40-45 miles a week from now until the new year and then build a base with this mileage for the following 3-4 months. 30-35 is a bit low IMO.

Running Fool

Half marathon PB in Sept was 1hr 39 - did it while sick though but don't think I would have been much more than 1min faster.
Athlone 3/4 marathon (19.3 miles) 2hrs 34 - ran very comfortably.
Haven't done a 10k or a 5k in quite a while. 5k PB was 21mins last Jan.
DCM'12 3hrs 42, DCM'13 3hrs 30 - died in the last few miles, felt I didn't have enough endurance.

Zero training apart from a few short easy runs in May, June and start of July due to an insane work project.
Aug to Oct I did train hard but also worked hard and was exhausted most of the time and while I got my speed down to tempos at 7.15 and 7.25 pace (which is fast for me) my longest tempo was 10miles.
An average week was 6 to 7 days running, some days with double runs to increase my mileage.
Long runs didn't have PMP miles in them.

I should also point out that this marathon was the first doing correct tempo rusn and intervals, I think that starting them in August I just started too late really.

Reason for me to run a spring marathon was just to get into anopther one soon as I can with correct training, generally open to anything though.

ooter

Thanks blockic

thebackbar

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi the backbar, I'm not sure you're fully grasping the point that's being made. The pacers are not targeting a 6:45 pace. Instead they are targeting a pace that will see them cross the finish line in 02:59:30 (give or take a few seconds). That is an actual pace of 6:51/mile. The pacers use a combination of factors to establish their pace, including: Garmin pace (completely unreliable), course mile-markers (only as reliable as the positioning of the mile markers), and experience. While the goal is to run even splits for every single mile, the reality is that at 6:50/mile pace, it is a pretty significant challenge. Crowd congestion, runner feedback, wind, uphills, downhills, Garmin inaccuracy, misplaced mile markers, all contribute to making it a demanding challenge.

The first five miles of DCM are fast. This was particularly true on Monday, where we were not facing into a head-wind over those early miles. The optimal strategy (for someone not trying to make even mile splits over the length of the course) is to take advantage of favourable conditions in order to run an even-effort race. This means running slightly faster with the wind behind you, slower into a head-wind; faster on the downhills, slower on the uphills. So while the first 10km may have been fast, it should have been achievable, if you were suitably trained for your target.

I have paced sub-3 marathons before, and from my experience, I would hazard a guess that there is a drop -off rate of approximately 50-60%. Why such a high rate?

• Runners train based on the marathon pace displayed on their Garmins, which is not fast enough to reflect reality.
• Runners do not leave themselves any margin for error - they train for a target like 2:59:50, which leaves them with little wriggle room for any external factors along the way (wind, low-points, under-hydration, toilet breaks, shoe-laces, heat, etc. etc.). IMHO, if you want to break 3 hours, you should be training to achieve a 2:55 marathon
• Runners who are used to running at their own pace struggle when running at others paces. Some people (like me) just aren't suitable targets for being paced, needing instead to run at our own pace.
• Runners simply don't do adequate training
• Runners get unlucky on the day

At the end of the day, we have to take responsibility for our own successes and failures. Until we do, it is impossible to diagnose what went wrong and make the necessary adjustments to our plans to ensure success the next time around. Perhaps success lies in running more miles. Perhaps in ignoring the Garmin. Perhaps even in ignoring the pacers, but as long as we look outwards, for the solution nothing will change.

I appreciate the point that's being made Krusty_Clown, in hindsight i could of rephrased my last post a bit better. You have provided some good information in your last post, information that will stand to me, its the kinda stuff i should of realised pre DCM instead of post DCM. Thanks for posting that information.

LloydChristmas

My PB is 3.30 so it's a big jump to sub 3 but I have the time and dedication ahead so just want to give it the best I can get. In theory I'll have 2 strong tries at it next year at least, a spring marathon and DCM'14, and longer if needed, but want to get right into it.

Common sense here suggests that its a big ask to go sub 3 in a Spring marathon from a 3.30 DCM'13. I'm not saying impossible but certainly a very tall order especially with the Irish weather we get, long runs will be tough physically and mentally

Maybe it would be a better idea to train with 3hrs in mind, but target a sub 3.15 (or sub 3.10) Spring marathon. Then, gauge the effort level from that run to give you an indication of how ready you are for sub 3 in DCM'14.

Just my opinion, but I think its better to set smaller more achievable goals on the journey to sub 3 than just going all out for it...failing...then giving up or getting frustrated

Running Fool

LloydChristmas wrote: »

Common sense here suggests that its a big ask to go sub 3 in a Spring marathon from a 3.30 DCM'13. I'm not saying impossible but certainly a very tall order especially with the Irish weather we get, long runs will be tough physically and mentally

Maybe it would be a better idea to train with 3hrs in mind, but target a sub 3.15 (or sub 3.10) Spring marathon. Then, gauge the effort level from that run to give you an indication of how ready you are for sub 3 in DCM'14.

Just my opinion, but I think its better to set smaller more achievable goals on the journey to sub 3 than just going all out for it...failing...then giving up or getting frustrated

Yeah I'm fine to try something like that.

But I guess as I said before what's a sensible approach to these next few weeks up till maybe early Jan or so? Follow a 10k plan or something?

ooter

Running Fool wrote: »

Yeah I'm fine to try something like that.

But I guess as I said before what's a sensible approach to these next few weeks up till maybe early Jan or so? Follow a 10k plan or something?

I'm starting the 4 week Hal Higdon marathon recovery programme next week,and then gradually build the weekly mileage up by 10% a week.

Clearlier

Running Fool wrote: »

Half marathon PB in Sept was 1hr 39 - did it while sick though but don't think I would have been much more than 1min faster.
Athlone 3/4 marathon (19.3 miles) 2hrs 34 - ran very comfortably.
Haven't done a 10k or a 5k in quite a while. 5k PB was 21mins last Jan.
DCM'12 3hrs 42, DCM'13 3hrs 30 - died in the last few miles, felt I didn't have enough endurance.

Zero training apart from a few short easy runs in May, June and start of July due to an insane work project.
Aug to Oct I did train hard but also worked hard and was exhausted most of the time and while I got my speed down to tempos at 7.15 and 7.25 pace (which is fast for me) my longest tempo was 10miles.
An average week was 6 to 7 days running, some days with double runs to increase my mileage.
Long runs didn't have PMP miles in them.

I should also point out that this marathon was the first doing correct tempo rusn and intervals, I think that starting them in August I just started too late really.

Reason for me to run a spring marathon was just to get into anopther one soon as I can with correct training, generally open to anything though.

While your endurance could stand a little improvement really the biggest barrier to going sub-3 is your speed. You should be doing a 10k in about 38 mins in order to run sub-3 and it doesn't sound like you'd break 40mins at the moment.

There's a book called Daniels running formula. It has a 24 week 5 - 15k plan with the first 6 weeks being base building. If you do that there's a decent chance you'll break 38 mins for 10k. Back it up with one of the Pfitzinger and Douglas plan from "advanced marathoning" or possibly Plan A from the Daniels book and you shouldn't be too far away from sub-3.