sub 3 hour marathon,what does it take?

ooter

apologies if there's a thread already on this subject.
realistically,how much work would be involved in going sub 3 hour?
what sort of weekly mileage would one need to be doing and how many days a week?
would it be a good idea to join a club or could it be done solo?

RayCun

The Sub 3 support thread

drquirky

ooter wrote: »

apologies if there's a thread already on this subject.
realistically,how much work would be involved in going sub 3 hour?
what sort of weekly mileage would one need to be doing and how many days a week?
would it be a good idea to join a club or could it be done solo?

Think it depends on a few different factors such as previous base, talent etc etc but I'll have a shot at a one-size-fits-all outline

50-65 mpw
running 6 days a week
1 lsr
4-6 20 plus runs
1 medium long run a week
PMP and LT sessions

TBH with that kind of work and dedication most people will eventually get there- how long it takes would vary obviously with the starting point. Being consistent over an extended period is the main thing tbh- string a good 6 months to a year of training together and you're on your way.

I'd join a club though- seriously helps in terms of people to run w/ of good standard/ track workouts etc etc...

ooter

6 days a week.:eek:
LT sessions,is that Lactate Threshold?

drquirky

ooter wrote: »

LT sessions,is that Lactate Threshold?

Yup....

Peckham

ooter wrote: »

6 days a week.:eek:

I did it on 5 days a week, but would agree that 6 is probably optimum and any less than 5 is likely to be insufficient (for most people).

Another thing worth noting is that many of those who achieve the sub-3 have at least one failed attempt at sub-3 before nailing it (I had 2 failed attempts - 3:00:00 and 3:03). If you're starting from a relatively low base it can work well to target the sub-3 in a Spring marathon, so if you fall short you can roll on through the summer and have another go in the autumn. This means that for the autumn marathon you're likely to have 9-12 months of quality training and lots of lessons learned. This I feel is the difference for many people who eventually get the sub-3.

foralongtime

Peckham wrote: »

I had 2 failed attempts - 3:00:00 and 3:03

Oh jesus!

ooter

Thanks for the replies lads.
Still getting over monday's exertions,would love to achieve it one day.
6 days is a lot,not sure if I could commit to that.

Running Fool

Whats a good spring marathon in Ireland to aim for thats not crazy hard - like Connemara.

Ive done Connemara a few times and while it's fun/scenic I would like to do something and try bring my time down as Dublin was a very close call for me hitting my target time.

Cork? - even if it is June?

Beef

As I found out to my cost in Cork - the weather can be unpredictable...

What about Limerick?

kit3

Running Fool wrote: »

Whats a good spring marathon in Ireland to aim for thats not crazy hard - like Connemara.

Ive done Connemara a few times and while it's fun/scenic I would like to do something and try bring my time down as Dublin was a very close call for me hitting my target time.

Cork? - even if it is June?

Kildare on 27th April

Running Fool

what kind of course is there in Kildare or Limerick?

kit3

Running Fool wrote: »

what kind of course is there in Kildare or Limerick?

I've only done the half in Kildare & it's practically flat. You can check out the full course here: http://www.kildaremarathon.ie/full_marathon.html

There's also a thread from last year : http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=81904184

ThePiedPiper

Another thing to think about is the target pace.. Forget about training based on 6:52 as goal pace.. Use 6:45 as the PMP when training and you'll find things much easier on race day.

You have to really hit the ground running (excuse the pun) for sub 3, have a good base built up and commit to the target from about 6 months out.

menoscemo

ooter wrote: »

apologies if there's a thread already on this subject.
realistically,how much work would be involved in going sub 3 hour?
what sort of weekly mileage would one need to be doing and how many days a week?
would it be a good idea to join a club or could it be done solo?

I think the best thing you could do is read Blockic's log. He was in a similar position to you this time last year having ran a sub 3:30 marathon as a novice runner. Having a read of his log should give you an idea of the type of commitment needed.

ooter

RunForestRun wrote: »

Another thing to think about is the target pace.. Forget about training based on 6:52 as goal pace.. Use 6:45 as the PMP when training and you'll find things much easier on race day.

You have to really hit the ground running (excuse the pun) for sub 3, have a good base built up and commit to the target from about 6 months out.

i followed HH novice 1 for DCM and had crazy notions of going sub 3 hour in the early weeks but as the long runs got longer i realised that was never going to happen.i was doing my long runs at 7:50 pace but i was mixing the midweek runs up with some 6:30 and 7 min miles.

Brian Purcell

Hey Ooter,
I only started trying for a sub-3 hour marathon a couple of years ago. My previous best was 3:25 for the marathon. The first year I tried for sub-3 I got 3:05, last year was 2:59 and this year 2:58 all in the Dublin Marathon.
Unlike a lot of runners I don't follow any set training plan (and I'm not in a running club) but I keep my weight down (I'm 5'8" and about 60kg, age 35) and cycle to work every day. I usually do 3-4 runs a week for the 4 months prior to a marathon with a 10 day taper at the end with no running at all. Generally I don't do recovery runs, basically I try and go as fast as possible for the distance I run (usually one or two 5 mile runs with a 10 mile plus run in a week). I know I'm on the way to full fitness when I can run 5 miles in under 30 minutes. So this 6 minute a mile pace means that running 6 mins 52 for a sub-3 marathon doesn't feel too bad. Interval training (basically sprints and recovery jogging for 2-3 miles) and a bit of hill training (in the Phoenix Park) is also important. This year the max run I did was 19 miles (planned to do another longer run but got a slight blister from different runners 2 weeks from the marathon) and also did some 2.5 mile runs a 5 minute 45 pace. If I felt a niggle on a day I planned to go training I'd no problem waiting another day - I think it's vital to listen to your body but this shouldn't be an excuse for laziness either. If I do a long run (half-marathon plus) I try and go early on a Saturday morning (sometimes at 6am) then go back to bed for a few hours after so I'm fully recovered for Saturday night!
A sub-3 hour marathon is by no means impossible but it does require you not to be carrying any extra weight and be willing to really push yourself in training. I'll probably do the Dubai Marathon next January and might try for a 2:55 time. Obviously, depending on your current running experience and fitness level, you should build up your speed and endurance slowly, and consult a doctor with any queries.

marchino

If You can't commit to a club regime, there's no point joining one.
It does take a lot of energy as much as anything, thinking wise i mean.
But, the positives quality wise, for training are obviously much better.

If You are religious with Your training and sensible without being extreme with your diet, You should have a good shout at breaking 3 hours.

TFBubendorfer

ooter wrote: »

6 days a week.:eek:

To be honest, I find it astonishing that someone states he wants to brake 3 hours in the marathon and then seems to be shocked that running 6 times a week is highly recommended.

Did you think it's easy? Just what did you expect?

ooter

Thanks a lot Brian,very informative and helpful post.I ran your exact time for my first marathon on monday and would be a similar height and weight though a little bit older.
I've also been known to run 30 mins for 5 miles,i wouldn't be quite up to 5:45/mile pace yet but im sure i have it in me.so there's hope for me yet.:)
What would your maximum weekly mileage have been in preparation for this year's DCM?

nobody told me

To be honest you won't break anything with the brake on

Clearlier

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

To be honest, I find it astonishing that someone states he wants to brake 3 hours in the marathon and then seems to be shocked that running 6 times a week is highly recommended.

Did you think it's easy? Just what did you expect?

Your training and race report for your first sub-3 are among the best I've ever read but it's worth pointing out that some people have the ability to go sub-3 a little more easily than you did - I'd respect your run more because of what you put into it but if you're just looking at the time some people can do it with little effort.

ooter wrote: »

apologies if there's a thread already on this subject.
realistically,how much work would be involved in going sub 3 hour?
what sort of weekly mileage would one need to be doing and how many days a week?
would it be a good idea to join a club or could it be done solo?

Different requirement for different people. Some principles:

• Be consistent, get into a routine and just keep doing it
• Progress your training - increase your workload carefully and steadily. 10% a week is often given as a rule of thumb but I recently read Alberto Salazar saying that 10% a month was plenty in his book and there's a lot to be said for that.
• Do most of your running at an easy pace
• Do some of your running at a fast pace
• Train at race pace

Brian Purcell wrote: »

Hey Ooter,
I only started trying for a sub-3 hour marathon a couple of years ago. My previous best was 3:25 for the marathon. The first year I tried for sub-3 I got 3:05, last year was 2:59 and this year 2:58 all in the Dublin Marathon.
Unlike a lot of runners I don't follow any set training plan (and I'm not in a running club) but I keep my weight down (I'm 5'8" and about 60kg, age 35) and cycle to work every day. I usually do 3-4 runs a week for the 4 months prior to a marathon with a 10 day taper at the end with no running at all. Generally I don't do recovery runs, basically I try and go as fast as possible for the distance I run (usually one or two 5 mile runs with a 10 mile plus run in a week). I know I'm on the way to full fitness when I can run 5 miles in under 30 minutes. So this 6 minute a mile pace means that running 6 mins 52 for a sub-3 marathon doesn't feel too bad. Interval training (basically sprints and recovery jogging for 2-3 miles) and a bit of hill training (in the Phoenix Park) is also important. This year the max run I did was 19 miles (planned to do another longer run but got a slight blister from different runners 2 weeks from the marathon) and also did some 2.5 mile runs a 5 minute 45 pace. If I felt a niggle on a day I planned to go training I'd no problem waiting another day - I think it's vital to listen to your body but this shouldn't be an excuse for laziness either. If I do a long run (half-marathon plus) I try and go early on a Saturday morning (sometimes at 6am) then go back to bed for a few hours after so I'm fully recovered for Saturday night!
A sub-3 hour marathon is by no means impossible but it does require you not to be carrying any extra weight and be willing to really push yourself in training. I'll probably do the Dubai Marathon next January and might try for a 2:55 time. Obviously, depending on your current running experience and fitness level, you should build up your speed and endurance slowly, and consult a doctor with any queries.

I'm not suggesting that you should because you have to do whatever motivates you but I'd be willing to bet that you could get to 2:45, maybe even 2:30 within a couple of years if you focused on running and followed a plan such as is in Advanced Marathoning by Pfitzinger and Douglas.

thebackbar

folks,
some what related to this topic, what actually pace should you target for a sub three marathon ? I was expecting a steady 6.51 however I went by the pacers. The lead sub 3hr pacer covered the first 10km in a average speed of 6.45, 6 seconds per mile faster that what i was expecting. Now the pacer slowed from there on in, but for me the damage was done. Are you better off working off a garmin instead of a pacemaker ?

blockic

thebackbar wrote: »

folks,
some what related to this topic, what actually pace should you target for a sub three marathon ? I was expecting a steady 6.51 however I went by the pacers. The lead sub 3hr pacer covered the first 10km in a average speed of 6.45, 6 seconds per mile faster that what i was expecting. Now the pacer slowed from there on in, but for me the damage was done. Are you better off working off a garmin instead of a pacemaker ?

If you run a 6:51 average on the Garmin for a marathon you wont run sub 3. The marathon will roughly measure .2 or more of a mile more on it resulting in a faster average. 6:45 looks fine to me for first 10km. You should really work off a combination of mile markers, stop watch and garmin to get the best info possible. This is likely what the pacer was doing.

dublin runner

I believe a sub-3 hour marathon is within most people. Unfortunately, there are no short-cuts. A combination of sensible training and consistency is key. A generic plan like P&D 55-70 is a good plan and won't put you too far wrong. Listen to the body and just don't follow the plan blindly! I began running in April last year. Completed DCM'12 in a comfortable 3.46 (very conservative). After starting that P&D Plan I began sessions in August with a coach and completed this year in 2.58. If I can do it, anyone can!

The pacers in Dublin are fantastic. I also ran with them. I now prefer running with a stopwatch over the Garmin. The pace was slightly under for the first 10K alright. Just have the confidence to pace yourself and use the pacemakers as a guide.

robinph

6:46 is a smidgin faster than you want to be going for the first 10km of a sub 3 attmpt, but not so much that you should be overly concerned about it. As everyone is aware the pacing can be difficult, that is why people want to run with pacers so that they are there to do the thinking for you as they are running below what they are capable of and you can just follow.
Once you start behind the pacers though, if they are doing a touch fast at the start which is very easy to do in the crowds when they have a bunch of people snapping at their heels, you will still be in sight of them at the 10km mark if you happen to have run exactly 6:51. Then you just gradually reel them back in over the next 30km and beat them to the finish line.

I think you'd want to be hitting something like 6:48 pace all the way round to be sure of a sub 3 time at the end once you allow for the extra distance and GPS inaccuracies, so they were really only a very tiny amount ahead of schedule.

Running Fool

dublin runner wrote: »

I believe a sub-3 hour marathon is within most people. Unfortunately, there are no short-cuts. A combination of sensible training and consistency is key. A generic plan like P&D 55-70 is a good plan and won't put you too far wrong. Listen to the body and just don't follow the plan blindly! I began running in April last year. Completed DCM'12 in a comfortable 3.46 (very conservative). After starting that P&D Plan I began sessions in August with a coach and completed this year in 2.58. If I can do it, anyone can!

The pacers in Dublin are fantastic. I also ran with them. I now prefer running with a stopwatch over the Garmin. The pace was slightly under for the first 10K alright. Just have the confidence to pace yourself and use the pacemakers as a guide.

Thats amazing.

So you finished Dublin in '12, did you continue running thorugh winter and then begin the plan in June - leading up to marathon in Oct, or did you start the plan ealrier, finish the plan in Aug and continue with your coached sessions up to Oct?

Thanks

ooter

dublin runner wrote: »

I believe a sub-3 hour marathon is within most people. Unfortunately, there are no short-cuts. A combination of sensible training and consistency is key. A generic plan like P&D 55-70 is a good plan and won't put you too far wrong. Listen to the body and just don't follow the plan blindly! I began running in April last year. Completed DCM'12 in a comfortable 3.46 (very conservative). After starting that P&D Plan I began sessions in August with a coach and completed this year in 2.58. If I can do it, anyone can!

jesus well done,that's fantastic

PaulieYifter

blockic wrote: »

If you run a 6:51 average on the Garmin for a marathon you wont run sub 3. The marathon will roughly measure .2 or more of a mile more on it resulting in a faster average. 6:45 looks fine to me for first 10km. You should really work off a combination of mile markers, stop watch and garmin to get the best info possible. This is likely what the pacer was doing.

6:51 Average = 3:00:18 :mad:

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/322682381

5 to 6 days a week running.
Basic principles of P&D 55-70 viz.

1 or 2 x Med Long
1 or 2 x Speed Session (with club)
1 x Long Run (sometimes with PMP miles)
2 x Recovery Runs

Still came up a little short

TBH finding time for 6 days running a week is not a problem if you really want to do it. Yes you'll miss an occasional run due to work/family commitments. Run early/run late/run at lunch/run to work/run home from work.

My biggest problem is finding time to rest properly!

dublin runner

Running Fool wrote: »

Thats amazing.

So you finished Dublin in '12, did you continue running thorugh winter and then begin the plan in June - leading up to marathon in Oct, or did you start the plan ealrier, finish the plan in Aug and continue with your coached sessions up to Oct?

Thanks

Thanks. Don't think I am anything special, just a hard worker!

Yeah, so after the marathon I continued on running but because of family reasons it was somewhat unfocused and looking back I was just ticking over and not really improving. Once I hit January I focused on the Connemara Half. On a tough day I finished in 1.35. I really focused in on the Marathon in June before getting a few sessions in the months leading up to the marathon.

Once I finished the Athlone Flatline in a comfortable 1.24 I knew that sub 3 was on. My coach gave me a plan and I moved from the P&D plan to this from here on in, peaking at a 90 mile week three weeks out.

Looking back I made mistakes. I ran Athlone 3/4 at Marathon pace (6.51) and then hit the 90 mile week. On reflection, while 2.58 was a good time I was really in 2.55 shape and this race, and running the Eco2run 20 mile race at 7.10 pace the week before, was not the best idea.

dublin runner

robinph wrote: »

......
I think you'd want to be hitting something like 6:48 pace all the way round to be sure of a sub 3 time at the end once you allow for the extra distance and GPS inaccuracies, so they were really only a very tiny amount ahead of schedule.

Exactly. I think MP pace in training should be around 6.45 to simulate race conditions. 6.48 pace in the race, as you said, is more or less ideal to ensure a sub 3.

robinph

Just went and checked my Garmin stats from DCM 2010 where I first broke 3hrs with a 2:58:54 and my average pace on the Garmin was 6:48. Was a bit of variation of pace on some individual miles, but it was overall pretty consistent throughout and I was tracking the pacers as much as possible on that race. I'd put the variation down to the GPS more than anything else.

TFBubendorfer

Same here. I ran my first sub-3 in 2:59:35 a few years ago and the Garmin showed 6:48 average pace.

Peterx

robinph wrote: »

6:46 is a smidgin faster than you want to be going for the first 10km of a sub 3 attmpt, but not so much that you should be overly concerned about it. As everyone is aware the pacing can be difficult, that is why people want to run with pacers so that they are there to do the thinking for you as they are running below what they are capable of and you can just follow.
Once you start behind the pacers though, if they are doing a touch fast at the start which is very easy to do in the crowds when they have a bunch of people snapping at their heels, you will still be in sight of them at the 10km mark if you happen to have run exactly 6:51. Then you just gradually reel them back in over the next 30km and beat them to the finish line.

I think you'd want to be hitting something like 6:48 pace all the way round to be sure of a sub 3 time at the end once you allow for the extra distance and GPS inaccuracies, so they were really only a very tiny amount ahead of schedule.

edit - I'm equally of the opinion more people managed a sub 3 due to the pacers then would have on their own

The pacers do an amazing job and different people have different strategies and methods for getting through the event
I'm very wary of slagging off anyone which is not what I'm about here so on a constructive criticism note
: in my opinion the first two of the three hour pacers had banked a very tiny amount too much time by mile 7 which potentially had overcooked some of their followers. I was running relatively even splits for a 2.56 or 2.57 and only passed them at mile 8.

AdpRo

Off topic but as we are talking about the 3 hour pacers (who I also agree do a great job), from where I was watching on Roebuck the 3rd pacer seemed to have fallen well back (up to 3 mins) from the other 2, either he was struggling and falling back or the others were too fast!

28064212

Weetabix wrote: »

Off topic but as we are talking about the 3 hour pacers (who I also agree do a great job), from where I was watching on Roebuck the 3rd pacer seemed to have fallen well back (up to 3 mins) from the other 2, either he was struggling and falling back or the others were too fast!

Yeah, I caught up to him (gave me a very brief moment of amazement before I realized he was on his own). He picked up an injury around 16 miles (I think), was falling back from then on

Kissy Lips

28064212 wrote: »

Yeah, I caught up to him (gave me a very brief moment of amazement before I realized he was on his own). He picked up an injury around 16 miles (I think), was falling back from then on

He should have taken off the 3 hour flag or stopped otherwise, like you it gives a false sense of achievement.

TFBubendorfer

Yes, one of the 3 hours pacer got into trouble, as did one of the 3:10 pacers. That's why there are 3 or 4 pacers per group.

Kissy Lips wrote: »

He should have taken off the 3 hour flag or stopped otherwise, like you it gives a false sense of achievement.

I'm pretty sure every runner who came across him would have been fully aware that he was clearly not at 3:00 pace any more.

Gavlor

The 3 hour pacers had a great system and did a top job. Take a look at the number of runners that came in under the 3hr mark

Kissy Lips

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Yes, one of the 3 hours pacer got into trouble, as did one of the 3:10 pacers. That's why there are 3 or 4 pacers per group.



I'm pretty sure every runner who came across him would have been fully aware that he was clearly not at 3:00 pace any more.

Im pretty sure every runner wouldn't. Most will cop. Think about someone targeting a negative split. Lets the leash off the 3 hour pacers early and then reals them back in. Spots the failing 3 hour pacer and keeps pace with him for a while jeopardising his chances. After some time he will realise this guy is not pacing anymore but that is only after wasting valuable minutes. Again, he should have removed the flag or dropped out.

TFBubendorfer

You can come up with all sorts of unlikely scenarios if you want. Fine. But the vast majority of runners who are able to run a sub-3 marathon know their pace very well and can tell if they're running 6:50 or 7:50 pace, which is what that sub-3 pacer did over the last 10 miles.

Kissy Lips

that is just complacent.

KielyUnusual

As one of the pacers this year, I thought I'd give a little feedback. I was the third pacer most of the way, second when one of the pacers had a little trouble and fell off the pace. The other guys were a little bit ahead of me over the first few miles but always in sight. They might have been 45s to a minute ahead but no more. Nothing I think that would have caused too much issues.

In respect to the pacer that fell off the pace, in an ideal world I think he would have taken off his flag but he was obviously in a bit of trouble so probably wasn't thinking as straight as normal. I'm sure a lot of people who have had trouble in marathons could relate to this. Fortunately, I don't think it would have had a big effect on anyone's race. Runner's at that end of the field are well aware of what pace they should be running and one in a hundred don't have a Garmin for constant feedback.

thebackbar

KielyUnusual wrote: »

As one of the pacers this year, I thought I'd give a little feedback. I was the third pacer most of the way, second when one of the pacers had a little trouble and fell off the pace. The other guys were a little bit ahead of me over the first few miles but always in sight. They might have been 45s to a minute ahead but no more. Nothing I think that would have caused too much issues.

In respect to the pacer that fell off the pace, in an ideal world I think he would have taken off his flag but he was obviously in a bit of trouble so probably wasn't thinking as straight as normal. I'm sure a lot of people who have had trouble in marathons could relate to this. Fortunately, I don't think it would have had a big effect on anyone's race. Runner's at that end of the field are well aware of what pace they should be running and one in a hundred don't have a Garmin for constant feedback.

Thanks for the feedback folks ! To be honest i wish i had stuck with you instead of the other two pacers, imho opinion i think you nailed it re pacing the race. I appreciate though that its a difficult job, so i don't want to be seen to be knocking the other two pacemakers. It was very congested around the sub 3hr marker, and some people did fall in the congestion. In future i would advice people that the pacemakers for sub 3hr will be targeting a 6.45 pace. For people on the border line of sub 3, there is a huge difference between a 6.45 and 6.50 space, especially over the first 10km.

robinph

6:50 pace won't cut it for a sub 3 attempt.

I only did the one pacing gig so far, but when you are running along with a thousand eager people snapping at your heels but a clear road infront it takes some control to not just put the foot down to try and get away from the hungry horde. I think the only way to try and make people spread out is for the pacers to spread themselves out as well over a hundred meters or so, you then hopefully keep a few more stragglers going as they get picked up by the tail pace runner, but you are also keeping people from going too nuts at the front as nobody wants to get infront of the first of the pacers.

I know from when I did my sub 3 in Dublin it was the tail runner of the pacers that kept me going and meant I made the target, despite having lost the plot slightly when the first guy went past me around mile 20 whilst I felt awful and couldn't keep with that group. Both were doing the same speed, it was just down to when in my day that I encountered them, but both were needed and the being spread out a bit along the road is what was needed.

Krusty_Clown

thebackbar wrote: »

In future i would advice people that the pacemakers for sub 3hr will be targeting a 6.45 pace. For people on the border line of sub 3, there is a huge difference between a 6.45 and 6.50 space, especially over the first 10km.

Hi the backbar, I'm not sure you're fully grasping the point that's being made. The pacers are not targeting a 6:45 pace. Instead they are targeting a pace that will see them cross the finish line in 02:59:30 (give or take a few seconds). That is an actual pace of 6:51/mile. The pacers use a combination of factors to establish their pace, including: Garmin pace (completely unreliable), course mile-markers (only as reliable as the positioning of the mile markers), and experience. While the goal is to run even splits for every single mile, the reality is that at 6:50/mile pace, it is a pretty significant challenge. Crowd congestion, runner feedback, wind, uphills, downhills, Garmin inaccuracy, misplaced mile markers, all contribute to making it a demanding challenge.

The first five miles of DCM are fast. This was particularly true on Monday, where we were not facing into a head-wind over those early miles. The optimal strategy (for someone not trying to make even mile splits over the length of the course) is to take advantage of favourable conditions in order to run an even-effort race. This means running slightly faster with the wind behind you, slower into a head-wind; faster on the downhills, slower on the uphills. So while the first 10km may have been fast, it should have been achievable, if you were suitably trained for your target.

I have paced sub-3 marathons before, and from my experience, I would hazard a guess that there is a drop -off rate of approximately 50-60%. Why such a high rate?

• Runners train based on the marathon pace displayed on their Garmins, which is not fast enough to reflect reality.
• Runners do not leave themselves any margin for error - they train for a target like 2:59:50, which leaves them with little wriggle room for any external factors along the way (wind, low-points, under-hydration, toilet breaks, shoe-laces, heat, etc. etc.). IMHO, if you want to break 3 hours, you should be training to achieve a 2:55 marathon
• Runners who are used to running at their own pace struggle when running at others paces. Some people (like me) just aren't suitable targets for being paced, needing instead to run at our own pace.
• Runners simply don't do adequate training
• Runners get unlucky on the day

At the end of the day, we have to take responsibility for our own successes and failures. Until we do, it is impossible to diagnose what went wrong and make the necessary adjustments to our plans to ensure success the next time around. Perhaps success lies in running more miles. Perhaps in ignoring the Garmin. Perhaps even in ignoring the pacers, but as long as we look outwards, for the solution nothing will change.

blockic

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Hi the backbar, I'm not sure you're fully grasping the point that's being made. The pacers are not targeting a 6:45 pace. Instead they are targeting a pace that will see them cross the finish line in 02:59:30 (give or take a few seconds). That is an actual pace of 6:51/mile. The pacers use a combination of factors to establish their pace, including: Garmin pace (completely unreliable), course mile-markers (only as reliable as the positioning of the mile markers), and experience. While the goal is to run even splits for every single mile, the reality is that at 6:50/mile pace, it is a pretty significant challenge. Crowd congestion, runner feedback, wind, uphills, downhills, Garmin inaccuracy, misplaced mile markers, all contribute to making it a demanding challenge.

• Runners train based on the marathon pace displayed on their Garmins, which is not fast enough to reflect reality.
• Runners do not leave themselves any margin for error - they train for a target like 2:59:50, which leaves them with little wriggle room for any external factors along the way (wind, low-points, under-hydration, toilet breaks, shoe-laces, heat, etc. etc.). IMHO, if you want to break 3 hours, you should be training to achieve a 2:55 marathon

Excellent post and the above hits the nail completely on the head!

Running Fool

So let's say right now. For me I want to be lining up at DCM'14 cracking sub3. I plan to run a spring marathon(Cork/Kildare maybe?) where I wanna try it also. But in theory right now, over winter. Whats the smart thing to be doing?

In my (limited experience) I would think take 1 week off now, start back slowly training for shorter distances to get my 5k/10k times etc way down, in spring start a P+D plan for the Spring marathon?

Clearlier

Running Fool wrote: »

So let's say right now. For me I want to be lining up at DCM'14 cracking sub3. I plan to run a spring marathon(Cork/Kildare maybe?) where I wanna try it also. But in theory right now, over winter. Whats the smart thing to be doing?

In my (limited experience) I would think take 1 week off now, start back slowly training for shorter distances to get my 5k/10k times etc way down, in spring start a P+D plan for the Spring marathon?

How does your speed relate to your endurance? If, like most people, your speed is better than your endurance then you'll want to spend some time building up the number of miles that you run. If however you can go all day and convert your times at shorter distances well to the longer distances (there are various online calculators that you can use to check this) then you'll benefit more from bringing down your 5k/10k times down.

Running Fool

Clearlier wrote: »

How does your speed relate to your endurance? If, like most people, your speed is better than your endurance then you'll want to spend some time building up the number of miles that you run. If however you can go all day and convert your times at shorter distances well to the longer distances (there are various online calculators that you can use to check this) then you'll benefit more from bringing down your 5k/10k times down.

I'd need to increase speed as well as endurance. My training for DCM'13 was hampered by crazy work issues across the summer and Sept that are now more or less sorted. But I'd need to increase my speed to be running 6.45 miles or so so. I know last weekend I began to really break down after 20miles. I know eveyrbody does but I really did more than usual I think.

My PB is 3.30 so it's a big jump to sub 3 but I have the time and dedication ahead so just want to give it the best I can get. In theory I'll have 2 strong tries at it next year at least, a spring marathon and DCM'14, and longer if needed, but want to get right into it.

It's really this period now over mid Nov/Dec and into Jan that I'm kind of clueless what to be doing.

Clearlier

Running Fool wrote: »

I'd need to increase speed as well as endurance. My training for DCM'13 was hampered by crazy work issues across the summer and Sept that are now more or less sorted. But I'd need to increase my speed to be running 6.45 miles or so so. I know last weekend I began to really break down after 20miles. I know eveyrbody does but I really did more than usual I think.

My PB is 3.30 so it's a big jump to sub 3 but I have the time and dedication ahead so just want to give it the best I can get. In theory I'll have 2 strong tries at it next year at least, a spring marathon and DCM'14, and longer if needed, but want to get right into it.

It's really this period now over mid Nov/Dec and into Jan that I'm kind of clueless what to be doing.

The easy answer is keep doing what you're doing and gradually increase the amount of it but I'm happy to give some more specific thoughts if you can provide me with some more information.

Can you give me a couple of PB's for shorter distances (5k, 10k, half)? Also, what has your training been like for the past 6 months? If the past 6 months doesn't represent your heaviest training load what was it, when was it and how did you manage it (injuries, tiredness, etc.)?

Are you set on running a spring marathon or would you take a different approach to improve your chances of a sub-3 in DCM '14?