Why is it wrong to oppose mass immigration?

jank · 10-12-2013 12:31am

Did you ever hear of the black economy? Immigrants are usually much more likely to work in the black economy the world over.

Nodin · 10-12-2013 1:57am

jank wrote: »

Did you ever hear of the black economy? Immigrants are usually much more likely to work in the black economy the world over.

Indeed I did, but as nobody had mentioned it before you, it wasn't something I'd remarked upon.

jank · 10-12-2013 3:26am

You assumed wrongly that every immigrant pays tax on income.

Seaneh · 10-12-2013 5:23am

Jank, as ever, delivering some delicious irony.

An immigrant spouting nonsense anti-immigration rhetoric.

If your ideals were to be implemented in your current country of residence, you'd be on one of the first flights home I assume young jank?

:rolleyes:

Nodin · 10-12-2013 6:44am

jank wrote: »

You assumed wrongly that every immigrant pays tax on income.

....no, I never addressed an issue that no-one had as of yet raised.

djpbarry · 10-12-2013 11:04am

jank wrote: »

You assumed wrongly that every immigrant pays tax on income.

Nobody has assumed any such thing?

jank · 11-12-2013 2:31am

Seaneh wrote: »

Jank, as ever, delivering some delicious irony.

An immigrant spouting nonsense anti-immigration rhetoric.

If your ideals were to be implemented in your current country of residence, you'd be on one of the first flights home I assume young jank?

:rolleyes:

What 'ideals' are these Seaneh, please elaborate.
What 'anti-immigration' policy would see me a legal permanent resident of australia on the first flight home.
When responding please quote me rather then the usual three card tick on twisting something I said to mean something else you think I said.

jank · 11-12-2013 2:41am

djpbarry wrote: »

Nobody has assumed any such thing?

As tax is deducted by the employer, I fail to see how someone sending money home would bypass the tax system.

Not everyone earning a wage (Irish and non-nationals) are compliant with the Irish tax system as some are working in the black economy. An employer will not deduct tax if they are being paid under the table. I pointed out to him a simple scenario that people send money home that bypass the tax system. That.is.all.

Seaneh · 11-12-2013 2:48am

jank wrote: »

What 'ideals' are these Seaneh, please elaborate.
What 'anti-immigration' policy would see me a legal permanent resident of australia on the first flight home.
When responding please quote me rather then the usual three card tick on twisting something I said to mean something else you think I said.

You accusing someone else of twisting words to mean something else?

Bloody hilarious.

"Facking immigrants, all baastards, unless they are me".

jank · 11-12-2013 3:02am

Seaneh wrote: »

You accusing someone else of twisting words to mean something else?

Bloody hilarious.

"Facking immigrants, all baastards, unless they are me".

I asked a simple question.

You accused me of spouting anti-immigrant rethoric/ideals that would see me on a plane home if said rethoric was implimented into policy.
By all means quote me on this and prove yourself right, if not than I ask you to withdraw the remark.

If you cannot do that, then by default the comment is withdrawn.

djpbarry · 11-12-2013 9:55am

jank wrote: »

Not everyone earning a wage (Irish and non-nationals) are compliant with the Irish tax system as some are working in the black economy. An employer will not deduct tax if they are being paid under the table. I pointed out to him a simple scenario that people send money home that bypass the tax system.

What you said was pretty clear:

jank wrote:

You assumed wrongly that every immigrant pays tax on income.

Nobody has assumed that there are no immigrants working illegally or "under the radar".

However, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, it is reasonable to assume that the vast majority of EU nationals working in Ireland are paying tax on their income.

jank · 11-12-2013 12:30pm

djpbarry wrote: »

What you said was pretty clear:
Nobody has assumed that there are no immigrants working illegally or "under the radar".

However, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, it is reasonable to assume that the vast majority of EU nationals working in Ireland are paying tax on their income.

Nodin could not see a scenario, to quote "how someone sending money home would bypass the tax system". I just laid out a simple scenario to prove contrary which is not disputed. That was all.

Yes most immigrants would be above board on their tax. I was merely playing devils advocate. Shoot me.

djpbarry · 11-12-2013 2:22pm

jank wrote: »

Nodin could not see a scenario, to quote "how someone sending money home would bypass the tax system".

You've omitted the beginning of that quote, in which states the perfectly reasonable assumption that tax is deducted by the employer.

jank · 11-12-2013 2:54pm

And we all know about assumptions...

djpbarry · 11-12-2013 3:11pm

jank wrote: »

And we all know about assumptions...

They're perfectly reasonable in the absence of evidence to the contrary?

Scofflaw · 11-12-2013 7:28pm

jank wrote: »

And we all know about assumptions...

If you're going to make a case that there are significant numbers of immigrants avoiding tax, make it. Otherwise stop nitpicking and being cryptic before it gets to the stage of trolling.

moderately irritated,
Scofflaw

Mahogany · 12-12-2013 1:34am

Manassas61 wrote: »

It is the political agenda of the left wing contingent and political parties in the UK and the Irish Republic to use immigration for political reasons. The hope of building a vote base on it.

It's why Labour opened the doors to try and keep the Conservatives out. Too many of the UK parties are scared to debate the issue. Control is paramount. Flooding the country in harsh economic times for people is not only stupid but morally wrong.

Yet it would be okay for you to move to Australia, now wouldn't it?

Immigration is never wrong, Irish have emigrated everywhere for a couple of centuries now so we've an obligation to let people in who seek a better life.

jank · 12-12-2013 2:03am

djpbarry wrote: »

They're perfectly reasonable in the absence of evidence to the contrary?

The evidence is of course that people fact that both Irish and non-nationals working in the black economy, which makes the assumption false...sigh

For Scofflaw,

http://globalmj.eu/2012/12/29/polish-migrant-workers-in-irelands-black-economy-a-phenomenological-investigation/

Nine interviewees stated that when they came to Ireland they could not find a legal job, but needed to gain experience and illegal employment was more ac- cessible to them

This article presented an empirical exploration of shadow economy engagement by Polish migrants in Ireland, considering their pre-migration decision making processes, subsequent arrival in Ireland, and reflec- tions on their experiences. It is evident that pull factors, typically family and/or friends already living in Ireland exerted a strong influence on the migration decision.

Reflecting on their experience, interviewees who worked illegally display only limited guilt, possibly as a consequence of their prior acclimatisation with Poland’s shadow economy. Maeve’s statement: “I do not have any remorse; she [the employer] should have regret as she employs people illegally”, is therefore instructive.

100+ page PDF Here.
http://cua.openrepository.com/cua/bitstream/10759/301081/1/2011%20-%20M.Bs%20Marlena%20Gontarska.pdf

alastair · 12-12-2013 2:09am

jank wrote: »

For Scofflaw,

http://globalmj.eu/2012/12/29/polish-migrant-workers-in-irelands-black-economy-a-phenomenological-investigation/

100+ page PDF Here.
http://cua.openrepository.com/cua/bitstream/10759/301081/1/2011%20-%20M.Bs%20Marlena%20Gontarska.pdf

And like the man said already:

Nobody has assumed that there are no immigrants working illegally or "under the radar".

However, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, it is reasonable to assume that the vast majority of EU nationals working in Ireland are paying tax on their income.

jank · 12-12-2013 2:31am

Yes, however my inital response was to Nodin.

Scofflaw · 12-12-2013 6:11am

jank wrote: »

The evidence is of course that people fact that both Irish and non-nationals working in the black economy, which makes the assumption false...sigh

For Scofflaw,

http://globalmj.eu/2012/12/29/polish-migrant-workers-in-irelands-black-economy-a-phenomenological-investigation/

100+ page PDF Here.
http://cua.openrepository.com/cua/bitstream/10759/301081/1/2011%20-%20M.Bs%20Marlena%20Gontarska.pdf

That's really a qualitative and phenomenological study rather than a quantitative one.

cordially,
Scofflaw

djpbarry · 12-12-2013 1:49pm

jank wrote: »

The evidence is of course that people fact that both Irish and non-nationals working in the black economy, which makes the assumption false...sigh

It seems you misunderstand what an assumption is. I'll be catching a flight in a few days time - are you telling me that I am wrong to assume I will survive the flight because, on very rare occasions, planes crash?

Unless you've got evidence that large numbers of immigrants are avoiding tax, then you really don't have a point to make.

hotbabe1992 · 13-12-2013 2:16pm

Never ending Immigration = okay

Against immigration = damn racist

cerastes · 13-12-2013 4:20pm

hotbabe1992 wrote: »

Never ending Immigration = okay

Against immigration = damn racist

Even labours Jack Straw admitted it was an error in the UK.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10445585/Labour-made-a-spectacular-mistake-on-immigration-admits-Jack-Straw.html

djpbarry · 14-12-2013 2:58pm

cerastes wrote: »

Even labours Jack Straw admitted it was an error in the UK.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10445585/Labour-made-a-spectacular-mistake-on-immigration-admits-Jack-Straw.html

He admits to under-estimating the number of immigrants that the UK would receive from the new accession states. Of course, the article stops short of explaining why this was bad for the UK. All we get are some vague statements about the Roma community and segregation.

trashcan · 14-12-2013 9:27pm

hotbabe1992 wrote: »

Never ending Immigration = okay

Against immigration = damn racist

I didn't realise those were the only two options!

Nodin · 15-12-2013 1:27am

trashcan wrote: »

I didn't realise those were the only two options!

Like 'In hindsight maybe some limits might have been set' or something completely mad like that.

hotbabe1992 · 15-12-2013 2:26pm

I didn't realise those were the only two options!

For the mainstream they are the only two options there.

I find the immigration argument rigid,if anybody comes on here and opposes it - immediately someone will come out and brand them a racist.

Thats how the immigration argument works genereally.

alastair · 15-12-2013 3:04pm

hotbabe1992 wrote: »

For the mainstream they are the only two options there.

I find the immigration argument rigid,if anybody comes on here and opposes it - immediately someone will come out and brand them a racist.

Thats how the immigration argument works genereally.

Not really. Try reviewing the points made in this thread - carefully - and let's see how that theory stands up to scrutiny (it doesn't).

Nodin · 15-12-2013 5:20pm

hotbabe1992 wrote: »

For the mainstream they are the only two options there.

I find the immigration argument rigid,if anybody comes on here and opposes it - immediately someone will come out and brand them a racist.

Thats how the immigration argument works genereally.

As we've 16 pages in this thread, you'll undoubtedly be able to find an example of what you refer to in order to illustrate your point....

Why is it wrong to oppose mass immigration?

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