Columbus

MadsL

...was an asshole.

The Oatmeal discusses Columbus (given the day that's in it) and puts forward Bartolomé de las Casas

Were you taught that Columbus was some kind of brave adventurer in school?

Bartolomé de las Casas is also not without controversy.
http://observationdeck.io9.com/seriously-screw-the-oatmeal-1443252499

So, AH, What Irish national hero should be given a public holiday? Brian Boru? Brian O'Driscoll, Brian Cowen?

DrumSteve

Chopper Read.

mosstin

MadsL wrote: »

...was an asshole.

The Oatmeal discusses Columbus (given the day that's in it) and puts forward Bartolomé de las Casas

Were you taught that Columbus was some kind of brave adventurer in school?

Bartolomé de las Casas is also not without controversy.
http://observationdeck.io9.com/seriously-screw-the-oatmeal-1443252499

So, AH, What Irish national hero should be given a public holiday? Brian Boru? Brian O'Driscoll, Brian Cowen?

I liked him. Never a crime he couldn't solve. Nice coat too. That Jessica Fletcher though? Don't get me started on her. She was a bitch.

ScumLord

I think you'd find that if you could meet most heroes from the past that they'd all be assholes.

Annasopra

History is never really what you read in books - it has been propagandised so much by the victors

BabyGorilla

ScumLord wrote: »

I think you'd find that if you could meet most heroes from the past that they'd all be assholes.

I was just about to say something along the same lines. Practically any ruler, or person of power from that era was likely a right cnt.

Karl Stein

Oh but you don't understand, imperialists were merely civilising the savages. The savages had to be slaughtered for their own good.

The “taproot of imperialism” is not in nationalist pride, but in capitalist oligarchy; and, as a form of economic organization, imperialism is unnecessary and immoral, the result of the mis-distribution of wealth in a capitalist society.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism:_A_Study

Capitalism, eh?

lkionm

Very ironic I'm re watching the sopranos and I'm just watching the Columbus episode

ScumLord

BabyGorilla wrote: »

I was just about to say something along the same lines. Practically any ruler, or person of power from that era was likely a right cnt.

Yup, **** floats on clean water.

They just had to be like that, with no checks and balances like we have today you could get away with anything and had to instill fear into your enemies to prevent them from trying to take you down.

My name is URL

He was a colonist. Takes a certain type of cnut to be in that game!

Muise...

assholes can be brave adventurers too, and vice versa.

Gráinne Ní Mháille, Robert Boyle, John Phillip Holland - they should all have days to celebrate them, imo.

Seaneh

Isn't having a day to "celebrate" Christopher Columbus "discovering" The Americas basically celebrating genocide and calling indigenous Americans sub-human?

Kinda messed up.

clairefontaine

We were taught about Columbus in a number of stages.

Yes, early on we were taught he discovered America. Around first grade, you color in pictures, and learn about the Nina, the Pinta,the Santa Maria. It's gentle.

Later on you learn about other explorers and the difference between finding something and "discovering" it. Columbus brought knowledge of the new world to the old world. There was publicity, there was discovery. That's what makes him different.

Then when you go to college you get brain washed with all this PC bull****.

It's a very important holiday to Italian Americans, its like their St. Paddys Day. Back east we had the day off, over in the West the kids have to go to school.

New Yorks was originally called Columbia after Columbus.

Jim van Morrison

Has Jebediah Springfield been mentioned yet?

ScumLord

clairefontaine wrote: »

Then when you go to college you get brain washed with all this PC bull****.

How is it brainwashing? You're taught a load of over simplified nonsense as a child then get a more rounded and realistic look at what actually happened in college. Would you rather we stuck with the simplified versions of everything as we aged?

clairefontaine

ScumLord wrote: »

How is it brainwashing? You're taught a load of over simplified nonsense as a child then get a more rounded and realistic look at what actually happened in college. Would you rather we stuck with the simplified versions of everything as we aged?

It's brainwashing because its taught with a particular slant.

Karl Stein

Seaneh wrote: »

Isn't having a day to "celebrate" Christopher Columbus "discovering" The Americas basically celebrating genocide and calling indigenous Americans sub-human?

Kinda messed up.

Genocide, torture, murder, and slavery, eh?

Yay! \o/

ScumLord

clairefontaine wrote: »

It's brainwashing because its taught with a particular slant.

What slant is that?

Zebra3

MadsL wrote: »

So, AH, What Irish national hero should be given a public holiday? Brian Boru? Brian O'Driscoll, Brian Cowen?

Arthur G?

Oh, wait....

Wibbs

Another thing about Columbus, he never actually set foot or even saw the continent of the Americas.

One thing though, this idea of europeans bringing smallpox infecting and killing the locals. More and more this is looking unlikely. the Aztecs had a word for smallpox in their language before the Europeans arrived and Spanish descriptions of early outbreaks follow what you would expect of smallpox, but the later mass killer is very different. Also how would an introduced pathogen take 30 years before it's first outbreak, then take a further 50 years before really getting genocidal? That's not how these things work. Look at how fast the black death ran through europe after a few rats jumped ship in Venice. The pestilence that really decimated the population had a different and newer Aztec word. From the extensive descriptions by Spanish priests, and Phillip the 2nds personal doctor(sent by him to learn about native meds and therapies) the real killer wasn't smallpox, but some sort of local, non introduced hellish hemorrhagic fever, that also killed Europeans(though less so, as the near annual rollcall of "plagues" that had affected Europe for the previous 500 years likely gave us more immunity. Any European reading this has ancestors that either caught the plague and survived, or had resistance to the infection in the first place).

MadsL

Wibbs wrote: »

Another thing about Columbus, he never actually set foot or even saw the continent of the Americas.

One thing though, this idea of europeans bringing smallpox infecting and killing the locals. More and more this is looking unlikely. the Aztecs had a word for smallpox in their language before the Europeans arrived and Spanish descriptions of early outbreaks follow what you would expect of smallpox, but the later mass killer is very different. Also how would an introduced pathogen take 30 years before it's first outbreak, then take a further 50 years before really getting genocidal? That's not how these things work. Look at how fast the black death ran through europe after a few rats jumped ship in Venice. The pestilence that really decimated the population had a different and newer Aztec word. From the extensive descriptions by Spanish priests, and Phillip the 2nds personal doctor(sent by him to learn about native meds and therapies) the real killer wasn't smallpox, but some sort of local, non introduced hellish hemorrhagic fever, that also killed Europeans(though less so, as the near annual rollcall of "plagues" that had affected Europe for the previous 500 years likely gave us more immunity. Any European reading this has ancestors that either caught the plague and survived, or had resistance to the infection in the first place).

I thought the British deliberately infected trading blankets with smallpox?
http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/amherst/lord_jeff.html

Native Americans got some measure of revenge. Tobacco was smoked as a ceremonial herb, not recreationally. How many colonists has tobacco killed??

clairefontaine

Wibbs wrote: »

Another thing about Columbus, he never actually set foot or even saw the continent of the Americas.

One thing though, this idea of europeans bringing smallpox infecting and killing the locals. More and more this is looking unlikely. the Aztecs had a word for smallpox in their language before the Europeans arrived and Spanish descriptions of early outbreaks follow what you would expect of smallpox, but the later mass killer is very different. Also how would an introduced pathogen take 30 years before it's first outbreak, then take a further 50 years before really getting genocidal? That's not how these things work. Look at how fast the black death ran through europe after a few rats jumped ship in Venice. The pestilence that really decimated the population had a different and newer Aztec word. From the extensive descriptions by Spanish priests, and Phillip the 2nds personal doctor(sent by him to learn about native meds and therapies) the real killer wasn't smallpox, but some sort of local, non introduced hellish hemorrhagic fever, that also killed Europeans(though less so, as the near annual rollcall of "plagues" that had affected Europe for the previous 500 years likely gave us more immunity. Any European reading this has ancestors that either caught the plague and survived, or had resistance to the infection in the first place).

He landed in San Salvador.

What do you mean he never stepped foot on any of the Americas? He never got off the boat?

Karl Stein

clairefontaine wrote: »

Columbus brought knowledge of the new world to the old world. There was publicity, there was discovery. That's what makes him different.

Did you read the bit with the torture, rape and murder?

Karl Stein

ScumLord wrote: »

What slant is that?

I'd hazard a guess that it's the liberal-lefty-PC slant.

FTA69

clairefontaine wrote: »

.

It's a very important holiday to Italian Americans,

Less so for the Indians I'd imagine.

MadsL

Homeland security; Defending America from Terrorism since 1492.

http://wccctoronto.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/homeland-security-fighting-terrorism-since-1492.jpg

clairefontaine

MadsL wrote: »

Homeland security; Defending America from Terrorism since 1492.

http://wccctoronto.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/homeland-security-fighting-terrorism-since-1492.jpg

Madsl, isn't it time you initiated the "but you don't live here, you don't know" clause?

GalwayGuy2

There's an awful wiff of annoying college student off that article.

Sure, Colambus was an asshole, but I honestly don't believe that the native americans were gentle lambs that never even heard of violence before the 'mericans Europeans came.

clairefontaine

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

There's an awful wiff of annoying college student off that article.

Sure, Colambus was an asshole, but I honestly don't believe that the native americans were gentle lambs that never even heard of violence before the 'mericans Europeans came.

Oh no, they were all a bunch of peace loving peyote smokers. Didn't scalp or anything. Apaches most of all. You know just like the Celtic mist tribes who never did anything, but hang out in the green mist before patriarchy took over, they never did anything like behead each other and hang the heads off of trees. Oh no no no. It was just the evil Europeans.

Karl Stein

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

There's an awful wiff of annoying college student off that article.

Sure, Colambus was an asshole, but I honestly don't believe that the native americans were gentle lambs that never even heard of violence before the 'mericans Europeans came.

Whataboutery. The problem with Columbus, and others like him, is that they are held up as virtuous exemplars of intrepid western explorers when in reality they were driven by darker desires.

4zn76tysfajdxp

clairefontaine wrote: »

Oh no, they were all a bunch of peace loving peyote smokers. Didn't scalp or anything. Apaches most of all. You know just like the Celtic mist tribes who never did anything, but hang out in the green mist before patriarchy took over, they never did anything like behead each other and hang the heads off of trees. Oh no no no. It was just the evil Europeans.

Absolute inhuman savages the lot of them.


They deserved to die.

Reindeer

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

There's an awful wiff of annoying college student off that article.

Sure, Colambus was an asshole, but I honestly don't believe that the native americans were gentle lambs that never even heard of violence before the 'mericans Europeans came.

Probably not. But a whole lot less of them were murdered by Europeans before the Europeans came.

http://rapidcityjournal.com/news/south-dakota-celebrates-native-american-day/article_c7e63b78-fa36-5b28-96f8-f0d477750949.html

clairefontaine

Anya Straight Mining wrote: »

Absolute inhuman savages the lot of them.


They deserved to die.

Who? The Europeans or the indigenous Americans?

ScumLord

Charlie Rock wrote: »

I'd hazard a guess that it's the liberal-lefty-PC slant.

Which could mean literally anything.

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Sure, Colambus was an asshole, but I honestly don't believe that the native americans were gentle lambs that never even heard of violence before the 'mericans Europeans came.

They were no better or worse than humans anywhere else on the planet. They had their own indigenous conflicts but seemed to be quite open to the new humans that showed up giving them the benefit of the doubt until they knew more. Which seems to be common amongst all humans.

They got played though, I'm sure if the tables were turned we'd have gotten just as screwed but that's life.

4zn76tysfajdxp

clairefontaine wrote: »

Who? The Europeans or the indigenous Americans?

The indigenous Americans. Outrageous that their war crimes (scalping, which they definitely invented) has been glossed over by these PC bulldinkles trying to sully Columbus's good name. Despicable.

Karl Stein

Anya Straight Mining wrote: »

Absolute inhuman savages the lot of them.

There's no better way to teach savages about civilisation than torturing them, raping them, and making slaves out of them.

clairefontaine

Anya Straight Mining wrote: »

The indigenous Americans. Outrageous that their war crimes (scalping, which they definitely invented) has been glossed over by these PC bulldinkles trying to sully Columbus's good name. Despicable.

That's why they deserve to die?

Uh...what?

Wow. I really dont know what to say to that.

Witcher

Sarcasm people, look it up.

clairefontaine

This thread is ****ed up.

Adios.

ScumLord

The whole scalping thing was a misunderstanding. Native Americans are actually avid hair stylists. When first seeing European hair styles they were taken aback by their amazing Europeanness. They practiced their stylings back at their camps and then in a fit of exuberance ran to the European settlements whooping with excitement, which may have looked slightly menacing to the Europeans.

Unfortunately the language barrier meant they couldn't explain the situation to the Europeans but were sure once their new friends saw their adaptations of European hair styles they'd instantly understand they had nothing but admiration for the white man.

The natives knew a lot rested on what they were about to do, the pressure was too much for many of the poor students of hair design, it didn't help their primitive war axes had no chance of replicating the precise movements of a European hair stylists scissors. Tragically most of the Europeans died during the session. The students distraught held up the beautiful hair they destroyed and ran away screaming in distress, which again, may have been misconstrued.

A tragic misunderstanding.

seamus

It's funny that as time goes on it becomes clearer that probably 90% of what we're taught about Columbus appears to be either incorrect or deliberately Disney-fied.

He landed in San Salvador.

What do you mean he never stepped foot on any of the Americas? He never got off the boat?

There are a lot of suggestions that Columbus never actually set foot on either continents of the Americas. He certainly didn't even get near to the South American coast until his 3rd voyage, even then he may have disembarked onto islands rather than the actual continent.

He definitely never even saw what is now the United States never mind "discover" it, which makes it funny that the entire country would have a day devoted to him.

clairefontaine

seamus wrote: »

It's funny that as time goes on it becomes clearer that probably 90% of what we're taught about Columbus appears to be either incorrect or deliberately Disney-fied.

There are a lot of suggestions that Columbus never actually set foot on either continents of the Americas. He certainly didn't even get near to the South American coast until his 3rd voyage, even then he may have disembarked onto islands rather than the actual continent.

The islands are part of what is known as "the Americas."

We know Venezeuela as named after Venice.

What Columbus did was initiate the connections between Europe and the new world, sponsored by Queen Isabella. It nearly doesn't matter whether or not he got off the boat. He brought the discover back to Spain which kicked off European connections to the New world.

Funny how half of you blame him for killing indigenous Americans and the other half say he never got off the boat. :rolleyes:

clairefontaine

1491 the Americas

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/03/1491/302445/

Nodin

clairefontaine wrote: »

Oh no, they were all a bunch of peace loving peyote smokers. Didn't scalp or anything. Apaches most of all. You know just like the Celtic mist tribes who never did anything, but hang out in the green mist before patriarchy took over, they never did anything like behead each other and hang the heads off of trees. Oh no no no. It was just the evil Europeans.

So scalping = justification for colonisation, racism, disenfranchisement, land theft, rape, murder etc. OK. Any other logical points there I should note down?

clairefontaine

Nodin wrote: »

So scalping = justification for colonisation, racism, disenfranchisement, land theft, rape, murder etc. OK. Any other logical points there I should note down?

Eh that wasn't really the point.

Nice try at intellectual blackmail. Not biting.

Tigger

clairefontaine wrote: »

Oh no, they were all a bunch of peace loving peyote smokers. Didn't scalp or anything. Apaches most of all. You know just like the Celtic mist tribes who never did anything, but hang out in the green mist before patriarchy took over, they never did anything like behead each other and hang the heads off of trees. Oh no no no. It was just the evil Europeans.

Scalping was a European thing and was initially done by Europeans to the natives. They would hand in the scalps in exchange for bounty squaw and child scalps were worth less than warrior scalps. The apache were just copying the European settlers .

wp_rathead

Twitter:

Went to the grocery store for spices but ended up at a stranger's house. Anyway I murdered him and moved in. Happy Columbus Day

Wibbs

clairefontaine wrote: »

He landed in San Salvador.

What do you mean he never stepped foot on any of the Americas? He never got off the boat?

Apologies, he never set foot in what became the United States of America(and may not have set foot in the Americas proper). Until he died he was convinced he had found the indies/Asia. Though in his dealings with the "Indians" he encountered, he was a complete and utter bastard.

MadsL wrote: »

I thought the British deliberately infected trading blankets with smallpox?
http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/amherst/lord_jeff.html

Well there's a lot of debate on that score and little concrete evidence that they did. I'm not saying they wouldn't have if given the chance to win, but even on the practicality front it's not really much of a goer. For a start those handing over the blankets would want to be damn sure of their immunity, a concept that didn't even arise until later.

clairefontaine wrote: »

Didn't scalp or anything.

As Tigger points out scalping was a European thing. Hey the noble savage shíte always pissed me off. The Locals were as bloodthirsty as any European. Of course they were, they were human. The Aztecs et al were right immoral bastards(and no I'm not gonna say by our standards, cos 90% of moral equivalence is a crock of post modernist liberal shíte IMH)

You know just like the Celtic mist tribes who never did anything, but hang out in the green mist before patriarchy took over, they never did anything like behead each other and hang the heads off of trees.

A) they weren't Celtic and yep they were right bloodthirsty bastards. Even made the Romans, who were right bloodthirsty bastards go "By Apollo Flavious those Keltoi are right bloodthirsty bastards". Thing is the Irish like that they were right bloodthirsty bastards in many ways. The notion of warriors wading knee deep in the blood of their enemies still holds some attraction even today.

Oh no no no. It was just the evil Europeans.

Not me in this case. Yes the Europeans were kunts more than once and yes they exploited and conquered all over the place and that shít still lingers in modern problems today. On the other hand the world around us is very much European in nature and culture and law and media. If an alien landed tomorrow they'd think the world was "European". Go to downtown Bejing today and what do you see? Do you see and hear traditional Chinese dress, music. Not very often and you do see cars and buildings and technology and all the rest that is very much European in nature. The first man on the moon spoke English, not because he was English, but because Europe made colonies. But for a quirk of history he may well have spoken French or German, Spanish or even Dutch, but chances are pretty damn high even if you rewound things he'd have spoken a European language. So I am most certainly not one of those self hating Europeans. IMHO The myriad civilisations of Europe throughout the history of mankind have given back more than they took*. Still and all, even with that, we have to acknowledge what we took too.



*then again because history can get muddled you do find odd ones out there. Take slavery, especially the wholesale slaughter and slavery of African peoples, the slavery we all think of when the word is spoken. Bad Europeans, baaaad. Yep we were. However, who stopped that same slave trade? Africans? Asians? Arabs? oh wait... nope, it was those whities again. I find it extremely ironic and not a little sad when I see African American men and women signing up for Islam(or an odd local variant on it), when Islamic culture had the slave trade running in Africa way before the first palefaced eejit rounded the west African coast praying to saint Christopher because he couldn't see the north star anymore and continued it long after, even down to today. They will even claim Christianity enslaved them, when it was nutbag for the time Christians who were the most vocal in speaking up agin it.

clairefontaine

Great post Wibbs. You're like a history bad ass. Can always rely on you to set things straight!

Johro

mosstin wrote: »

I liked him. Never a crime he couldn't solve. Nice coat too. That Jessica Fletcher though? Don't get me started on her. She was a bitch.

People dropping like flies wherever she lays her hat and nobody ever suspects HER.

MadsL

Charlie Rock wrote: »

There's no better way to teach savages about civilisation than torturing them, raping them, and making slaves out of them.

Another charming character bastard came through here in the 16th century. Juan de Oñate fought the Pueblo peoples in what is now New Mexico. When one pueblo rebelled in 1598, a skirmish that erupted when Oñate's occupying Spanish military demanded supplies from the Acoma tribe—demanding things essential to the Acoma surviving the winter. His response: he had his soldiers amputate the left foot of every Acoma man over the age of twenty-five. Females were sent off to be slaves for twenty years.

In 1606, Oñate was recalled to Mexico City for a hearing into his conduct. After finishing plans for the founding of the town of Santa Fé, he resigned his post and was tried and convicted of cruelty to both natives and colonists. He was banished from New Mexico but on appeal was cleared of all charges. Eventually Oñate went to Spain, where the king appointed him head of mining inspectors for all of Spain. He died in Spain in 1626.

In 1680 Popé, along with a number of other Pueblo leaders planned and orchestrated the Pueblo Revolt. They kicked the Spanish out of the Santa Fe area for 12 years before the Spanish returned in 1692.