Columbus

MadsL · 14-10-2013 05:56PM #1

...was an asshole.

The Oatmeal discusses Columbus (given the day that's in it) and puts forward Bartolomé de las Casas

Were you taught that Columbus was some kind of brave adventurer in school?

Bartolomé de las Casas is also not without controversy.
http://observationdeck.io9.com/seriously-screw-the-oatmeal-1443252499

So, AH, What Irish national hero should be given a public holiday? Brian Boru? Brian O'Driscoll, Brian Cowen?

DrumSteve · 14-10-2013 05:57PM

Chopper Read.

mosstin · 14-10-2013 06:01PM

MadsL wrote: »

...was an asshole.

The Oatmeal discusses Columbus (given the day that's in it) and puts forward Bartolomé de las Casas

Were you taught that Columbus was some kind of brave adventurer in school?

Bartolomé de las Casas is also not without controversy.
http://observationdeck.io9.com/seriously-screw-the-oatmeal-1443252499

So, AH, What Irish national hero should be given a public holiday? Brian Boru? Brian O'Driscoll, Brian Cowen?

I liked him. Never a crime he couldn't solve. Nice coat too. That Jessica Fletcher though? Don't get me started on her. She was a bitch.

ScumLord · 14-10-2013 06:02PM

I think you'd find that if you could meet most heroes from the past that they'd all be assholes.

Annasopra · 14-10-2013 06:04PM

History is never really what you read in books - it has been propagandised so much by the victors

BabyGorilla · 14-10-2013 06:04PM

ScumLord wrote: »

I think you'd find that if you could meet most heroes from the past that they'd all be assholes.

I was just about to say something along the same lines. Practically any ruler, or person of power from that era was likely a right cnt.

Karl Stein · 14-10-2013 06:05PM

Oh but you don't understand, imperialists were merely civilising the savages. The savages had to be slaughtered for their own good.

The “taproot of imperialism” is not in nationalist pride, but in capitalist oligarchy; and, as a form of economic organization, imperialism is unnecessary and immoral, the result of the mis-distribution of wealth in a capitalist society.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperialism:_A_Study

Capitalism, eh?

lkionm · 14-10-2013 06:07PM

Very ironic I'm re watching the sopranos and I'm just watching the Columbus episode

ScumLord · 14-10-2013 06:07PM

BabyGorilla wrote: »

I was just about to say something along the same lines. Practically any ruler, or person of power from that era was likely a right cnt.

Yup, **** floats on clean water.

They just had to be like that, with no checks and balances like we have today you could get away with anything and had to instill fear into your enemies to prevent them from trying to take you down.

My name is URL · 14-10-2013 06:07PM

He was a colonist. Takes a certain type of cnut to be in that game!

Muise... · 14-10-2013 06:09PM

assholes can be brave adventurers too, and vice versa.

Gráinne Ní Mháille, Robert Boyle, John Phillip Holland - they should all have days to celebrate them, imo.

Seaneh · 14-10-2013 06:17PM

Isn't having a day to "celebrate" Christopher Columbus "discovering" The Americas basically celebrating genocide and calling indigenous Americans sub-human?

Kinda messed up.

clairefontaine · 14-10-2013 06:18PM

We were taught about Columbus in a number of stages.

Yes, early on we were taught he discovered America. Around first grade, you color in pictures, and learn about the Nina, the Pinta,the Santa Maria. It's gentle.

Later on you learn about other explorers and the difference between finding something and "discovering" it. Columbus brought knowledge of the new world to the old world. There was publicity, there was discovery. That's what makes him different.

Then when you go to college you get brain washed with all this PC bull****.

It's a very important holiday to Italian Americans, its like their St. Paddys Day. Back east we had the day off, over in the West the kids have to go to school.

New Yorks was originally called Columbia after Columbus.

Jim van Morrison · 14-10-2013 06:22PM

Has Jebediah Springfield been mentioned yet?

ScumLord · 14-10-2013 06:23PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

Then when you go to college you get brain washed with all this PC bull****.

How is it brainwashing? You're taught a load of over simplified nonsense as a child then get a more rounded and realistic look at what actually happened in college. Would you rather we stuck with the simplified versions of everything as we aged?

clairefontaine · 14-10-2013 06:25PM

ScumLord wrote: »

How is it brainwashing? You're taught a load of over simplified nonsense as a child then get a more rounded and realistic look at what actually happened in college. Would you rather we stuck with the simplified versions of everything as we aged?

It's brainwashing because its taught with a particular slant.

Karl Stein · 14-10-2013 06:25PM

Seaneh wrote: »

Isn't having a day to "celebrate" Christopher Columbus "discovering" The Americas basically celebrating genocide and calling indigenous Americans sub-human?

Kinda messed up.

Genocide, torture, murder, and slavery, eh?

Yay! \o/

ScumLord · 14-10-2013 06:25PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

It's brainwashing because its taught with a particular slant.

What slant is that?

Zebra3 · 14-10-2013 06:27PM

MadsL wrote: »

So, AH, What Irish national hero should be given a public holiday? Brian Boru? Brian O'Driscoll, Brian Cowen?

Arthur G?

Oh, wait....

Wibbs · 14-10-2013 06:29PM

Another thing about Columbus, he never actually set foot or even saw the continent of the Americas.

One thing though, this idea of europeans bringing smallpox infecting and killing the locals. More and more this is looking unlikely. the Aztecs had a word for smallpox in their language before the Europeans arrived and Spanish descriptions of early outbreaks follow what you would expect of smallpox, but the later mass killer is very different. Also how would an introduced pathogen take 30 years before it's first outbreak, then take a further 50 years before really getting genocidal? That's not how these things work. Look at how fast the black death ran through europe after a few rats jumped ship in Venice. The pestilence that really decimated the population had a different and newer Aztec word. From the extensive descriptions by Spanish priests, and Phillip the 2nds personal doctor(sent by him to learn about native meds and therapies) the real killer wasn't smallpox, but some sort of local, non introduced hellish hemorrhagic fever, that also killed Europeans(though less so, as the near annual rollcall of "plagues" that had affected Europe for the previous 500 years likely gave us more immunity. Any European reading this has ancestors that either caught the plague and survived, or had resistance to the infection in the first place).

MadsL · 14-10-2013 06:31PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Another thing about Columbus, he never actually set foot or even saw the continent of the Americas.

One thing though, this idea of europeans bringing smallpox infecting and killing the locals. More and more this is looking unlikely. the Aztecs had a word for smallpox in their language before the Europeans arrived and Spanish descriptions of early outbreaks follow what you would expect of smallpox, but the later mass killer is very different. Also how would an introduced pathogen take 30 years before it's first outbreak, then take a further 50 years before really getting genocidal? That's not how these things work. Look at how fast the black death ran through europe after a few rats jumped ship in Venice. The pestilence that really decimated the population had a different and newer Aztec word. From the extensive descriptions by Spanish priests, and Phillip the 2nds personal doctor(sent by him to learn about native meds and therapies) the real killer wasn't smallpox, but some sort of local, non introduced hellish hemorrhagic fever, that also killed Europeans(though less so, as the near annual rollcall of "plagues" that had affected Europe for the previous 500 years likely gave us more immunity. Any European reading this has ancestors that either caught the plague and survived, or had resistance to the infection in the first place).

I thought the British deliberately infected trading blankets with smallpox?
http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/amherst/lord_jeff.html

Native Americans got some measure of revenge. Tobacco was smoked as a ceremonial herb, not recreationally. How many colonists has tobacco killed??

clairefontaine · 14-10-2013 06:32PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Another thing about Columbus, he never actually set foot or even saw the continent of the Americas.

One thing though, this idea of europeans bringing smallpox infecting and killing the locals. More and more this is looking unlikely. the Aztecs had a word for smallpox in their language before the Europeans arrived and Spanish descriptions of early outbreaks follow what you would expect of smallpox, but the later mass killer is very different. Also how would an introduced pathogen take 30 years before it's first outbreak, then take a further 50 years before really getting genocidal? That's not how these things work. Look at how fast the black death ran through europe after a few rats jumped ship in Venice. The pestilence that really decimated the population had a different and newer Aztec word. From the extensive descriptions by Spanish priests, and Phillip the 2nds personal doctor(sent by him to learn about native meds and therapies) the real killer wasn't smallpox, but some sort of local, non introduced hellish hemorrhagic fever, that also killed Europeans(though less so, as the near annual rollcall of "plagues" that had affected Europe for the previous 500 years likely gave us more immunity. Any European reading this has ancestors that either caught the plague and survived, or had resistance to the infection in the first place).

He landed in San Salvador.

What do you mean he never stepped foot on any of the Americas? He never got off the boat?

Karl Stein · 14-10-2013 06:34PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

Columbus brought knowledge of the new world to the old world. There was publicity, there was discovery. That's what makes him different.

Did you read the bit with the torture, rape and murder?

Karl Stein · 14-10-2013 06:43PM

ScumLord wrote: »

What slant is that?

I'd hazard a guess that it's the liberal-lefty-PC slant.

FTA69 · 14-10-2013 06:49PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

.

It's a very important holiday to Italian Americans,

Less so for the Indians I'd imagine.

MadsL · 14-10-2013 06:55PM

Homeland security; Defending America from Terrorism since 1492.

http://wccctoronto.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/homeland-security-fighting-terrorism-since-1492.jpg

clairefontaine · 14-10-2013 07:07PM

MadsL wrote: »

Homeland security; Defending America from Terrorism since 1492.

http://wccctoronto.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/homeland-security-fighting-terrorism-since-1492.jpg

Madsl, isn't it time you initiated the "but you don't live here, you don't know" clause?

GalwayGuy2 · 14-10-2013 07:17PM

There's an awful wiff of annoying college student off that article.

Sure, Colambus was an asshole, but I honestly don't believe that the native americans were gentle lambs that never even heard of violence before the 'mericans Europeans came.

clairefontaine · 14-10-2013 07:20PM

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

There's an awful wiff of annoying college student off that article.

Sure, Colambus was an asshole, but I honestly don't believe that the native americans were gentle lambs that never even heard of violence before the 'mericans Europeans came.

Oh no, they were all a bunch of peace loving peyote smokers. Didn't scalp or anything. Apaches most of all. You know just like the Celtic mist tribes who never did anything, but hang out in the green mist before patriarchy took over, they never did anything like behead each other and hang the heads off of trees. Oh no no no. It was just the evil Europeans.

Karl Stein · 14-10-2013 07:25PM

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

There's an awful wiff of annoying college student off that article.

Sure, Colambus was an asshole, but I honestly don't believe that the native americans were gentle lambs that never even heard of violence before the 'mericans Europeans came.

Whataboutery. The problem with Columbus, and others like him, is that they are held up as virtuous exemplars of intrepid western explorers when in reality they were driven by darker desires.

4zn76tysfajdxp · 14-10-2013 07:28PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

Oh no, they were all a bunch of peace loving peyote smokers. Didn't scalp or anything. Apaches most of all. You know just like the Celtic mist tribes who never did anything, but hang out in the green mist before patriarchy took over, they never did anything like behead each other and hang the heads off of trees. Oh no no no. It was just the evil Europeans.

Absolute inhuman savages the lot of them.

They deserved to die.

Columbus

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