Should I give in to Eid?

lazygal

If I were a student in the class I'd object to class time schedules being changed for anything but an emergency. What's more valid about a religious holiday than me maybe wanting to head away for a few days with my family and wanting the class changed to accommodate my wishes?

You don't know everyone in the class would agree to a change, plenty of people organise things around a schedule that they've signed up to and might be annoyed, but go along with it just because they don't want to be seen as being awkward.

Hotblack Desiato

Akrasia wrote: »

Ireland has fewer public holidays than other countries in Europe. I would support a new public holiday to mark EID for the muslim community as a cultural event that anyone can participate in.

The last thing we need is another public holiday that drifts around according to a lunar calendar, like Easter. And public holidays should be just that - we're stuck with a christian association with many of the ones we have, but the origins of Easter, Christmas, Halloween go back to the solstices and equinoxes, a natural cycle which was worshipped here for thousands of years before anyone had heard of christianity.

More public holidays yes, but they should be not associated with any particular religion, and always be a Monday e.g. first Monday in July could really do with one, and there's a huge gap between start of August and end of October.

If you start adding holidays on the basis of religion (particularly those based on a lunar calendar which is a scheduling nightmare) then where do you draw the line? Which religions get to be favoured? Do you choose all the days associated with those religions? Which to leave out?

Easter should be fixed too, it's a load of nonsense having it move around the calendar (and various christian sects can't even agree on the date.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_of_the_date_of_Easter

biko

About kicking it up the chain.

I'd be more inclined to ask my superior if there is any policy about giving leeway for mid-term religious holidays, rather than to bring up Eid and this particular Muslim.
Simply because Headmasters tend to get antsy about that particular religion.
If there is not tell the student to approach the head office for the next year about it.

I see in Sweden and US various calls for the schools to accommodate Muslims around Ramadan's end and Eid al Adha.
With increased Muslim immigration into Ireland it will probably become an everyday thing here too.

Akrasia

ninja900 wrote: »

The last thing we need is another public holiday that drifts around according to a lunar calendar, like Easter. And public holidays should be just that - we're stuck with a christian association with many of the ones we have, but the origins of Easter, Christmas, Halloween go back to the solstices and equinoxes, a natural cycle which was worshipped here for thousands of years before anyone had heard of christianity.

More public holidays yes, but they should be not associated with any particular religion, and always be a Monday e.g. first Monday in July could really do with one, and there's a huge gap between start of August and end of October.

If you start adding holidays on the basis of religion (particularly those based on a lunar calendar which is a scheduling nightmare) then where do you draw the line? Which religions get to be favoured? Do you choose all the days associated with those religions? Which to leave out?

Easter should be fixed too, it's a load of nonsense having it move around the calendar (and various christian sects can't even agree on the date.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reform_of_the_date_of_Easter

I like the mystery attached to floating bank holidays. It makes the calender people work for their blood money, and it's extra work for people like me whose job involves configuring databases to take into account public holidays
(just trying to stave off redundancy any way I can)

Pro Hoc Vice

My understanding is that there is no issue with working or studying during Eid Adha. If it there was a specific religious prohibition on working or studying then maybe, but my understanding is its more of a holiday in the same way Christmas is for Christians, nice to have a holiday but no religious requirement not to work or study on the day. But I may be wrong and if someone more knowledgeable on that issue. In fact I just rang a friend who is Muslim, who has a degree in Islamic Studies, who informed me that there is no religious prohibition on working or studying, in fact he is working on Eid Adha.

recedite

If this fella just wants to meet up with friends and family who have a traditional celebration on this particular day, I wouldn't like to see him miss out.

On the other hand, I just noticed that this celebration is to honour one of the most disturbing and repugnant morality tales in the whole judaeo/christian/muslim pantheon of disgusting stories......

PhoenixParker wrote: »

It's not the end of Ramadan, that was weeks ago, it's the other Eid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eid_al-Adha

Its "to honour the willingness of the prophet Ibrahim (Abraham) to sacrifice his young first-born son Ismail (Ishmael) as an act of submission to God's command"
In other words; If a voice in your head, which you believe to be God, tells you to go out and murder an innocent person, just do it and have no qualms about it. The christians have the decency to bury this one at the bottom of the pile. But not the muslims, apparently.


This puts a different gloss on it, I think. You cannot in good conscience add any kind of respect or legitimacy to this particular "celebration".

Tell him to mitch, and he can catch up by reading the notes later (on the Sunday).

Kidchameleon

equivariant wrote: »

I am not sure which way I will go on this one and I would like to have a better reason than 'I don't like religion' to refuse this request.

So you want to refuse his request on the basis that it is a religious one, so your looking for a false excuse? Its you OP that comes off as "strident".

Turtwig

Kidchameleon wrote: »

So you want to refuse his request on the basis that it is a religious one, so your looking for a false excuse? Its you OP that comes off as "strident".

I think you misunderstood both his post and his intentions. He's quite balanced if you ask me. His concern is that by making this accommodation on religious grounds it may set a precedent for other similar but inflexible demands.

Bannasidhe

Kidchameleon wrote: »

So you want to refuse his request on the basis that it is a religious one, so your looking for a false excuse? Its you OP that comes off as "strident".

My reading of the OP was that a request was made on religious grounds - it was the student who introduced the concept of religion as justification for rescheduling a lecture regardless of the knock- on effect and possible inconvenience to other students.

The OP was trying to be as accommodating as possible while considering all of the factors including other students - something the student in question appears not to have done.

I think you should reconsider to whom the word strident should be applied in this instance - I found your tone to be extremely strident actually.

Sarky

Didn't you know by now that it only counts as being a jerk if it's not fully in support of the status quo? Kidchameleon's airtight here because he's just atheist bashing.

Kidchameleon

Jernal wrote: »

I think you misunderstood both his post and his intentions. He's quite balanced if you ask me. His concern is that by making this accommodation on religious grounds it may set a precedent for other similar but inflexible demands.

Fair enough.

Could I ask the OP what would be the case if a student asked for a lecture to be moved for reasons other than a religious event?

Chattastrophe!

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Fair enough.

Could I ask the OP what would be the case if a student asked for a lecture to be moved for reasons other than a religious event?

But what other reason would there be? What reasonable person would ask that a lecture be cancelled just to suit them? If you have a wedding, a funeral, a holiday, a medical appointment, a job interview, whatever, it's up to the student to decide whether it's worth missing the lecture for.

I would NEVER expect a lecture to be rescheduled just to suit me, no matter how genuine my reasons for missing it were.

If it's something that involve several students in the class - e.g. attending a classmate's wedding - that would be different, and you might have a case.

Bannasidhe

Battlestar Tlachtga wrote: »

But what other reason would there be? What reasonable person would ask that a lecture be cancelled just to suit them? If you have a wedding, a funeral, a holiday, a medical appointment, a job interview, whatever, it's up to the student to decide whether it's worth missing the lecture for.

I would NEVER expect a lecture to be rescheduled just to suit me, no matter how genuine my reasons for missing it were.

If it's something that involve several students in the class - e.g. attending a classmate's wedding - that would be different, and you might have a case.

I'm a bit confused by that too. I have never encountered a situation where a student requested a lecture be moved for their own personal convenience.
Never - regardless of the circumstances. Not deaths, not marriages, not accidents, not emergencies.

We have had situations where due to circumstances it would be rearranged for a student to sit an exam but never because it coincided with a religious festival - I can't see that being accepted as a valid reason tbh.

Should universities and colleges rearrange all lectures that occur after sunset on Fridays as some religions prohibit 'work' on the Sabbath?

Kidchameleon

Battlestar Tlachtga wrote: »

If you have a wedding, a funeral, a holiday, a medical appointment, a job interview, whatever, it's up to the student to decide whether it's worth missing the lecture for.

Well all those reasons you mention would potentially cause a student to request a change. I could probably think of more reasons too. I agree the student shouldn't expect everyone to change to suit their request, but the OP has been asked to accommodate them in this instance.

Bannasidhe

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Well all those reasons you mention would potentially cause a student to request a change. I could probably think of more reasons too. I agree the student shouldn't expect everyone to change to suit their request, but the OP has been asked to accommodate them in this instance.

If this student were accommodated in this instance it sets a dangerous precedence whereby all future requests would have to be accommodated.

Timetabling is enough of a nightmare as it is without throwing religious festivals into the equation.

What about the point I made re: lectures/lab work/ etc which occur after sunset on Friday - should these be rearranged as they conflict with the Sabbath of some religions?

What next - should lecturers modify their lectures as some topics may conflict with the religious beliefs of some students?

Kidchameleon

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If this student were accommodated in this instance it sets a dangerous precedence whereby all future requests would have to be accommodated.

Not necessarily. Look at every walk of life, school, work, people have once off events that occur from time to time. The school / employer will try to accommodate the person, if they cant then they cant. That's life. I fail to see how the OP accommodating the student is going to mean the student is going to take advantage. The OP could have a word with the student, tell them this is a once off because its possible this time around.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Timetabling is enough of a nightmare as it is without throwing religious festivals into the equation.

Indeed I agree, but the OP has already stated that on this particular occasion, it would not be a problem:

equivariant wrote: »

This is a very small class and it would be possible for me to go along with this request and rearrange the class for another day without too much bother - also I am fairly sure that the non Muslim students in the class would not object to a rearrangement.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What about the point I made re: lectures/lab work/ etc which occur after sunset on Friday - should these be rearranged as they conflict with the Sabbath of some religions?

Of course not, that would be ridiculous. The OP is referring to a one off event so this point is groundless.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What next - should lecturers modify their lectures as some topics may conflict with the religious beliefs of some students?

No I don't think lectures should be modified to suit beliefs of religious students.


Again OP, I'd like to ask, what would you do if a student asked for a lecture to be moved for a non religious event eg. interview, wedding, funeral.

Turtwig

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Not necessarily. Look at every walk of life, school, work, people have once off events that occur from time to time. The school / employer will try to accommodate the person, if they cant then they cant. That's life. I fail to see how the OP accommodating the student is going to mean the student is going to take advantage. The OP could have a word with the student, tell them this is a once off because its possible this time around.

Schools will rarely alter class times. Unless it's a serious loss to a student of a teacher. Not even the death of a relative or grandparent would alter class schedules. If a class changes times for anything like holidays or a ceremonies there is a danger of setting a precedent. Your comparison isn't really accurate, or relevant, to be honest.

Rubberchikken

i think if you agree to do this now, it will set a precedent that may go completely out of hand in time.
do agree with others, he has some neck to request, nay, demand it happen.

i am sure there are many muslims studying in the country. if each one was to make this request, the education system would eventually ground to a halt.

No, is always a good response i think to anyone who is feeling entitled.

Kidchameleon

Jernal wrote: »

Schools will rarely alter class times. Unless it's a serious loss to a student of a teacher. Not even the death of a relative or grandparent would alter class schedules. If a class changes times for anything like holidays or a ceremonies there is a danger of setting a precedent. Your comparison isn't really accurate, or relevant, to be honest.

Agreed, a school weather it be primary or secondary would never change class times. But a college would, it happens all the time. The OP hasnt stated what type of institution it is, but from reading between the lines, it doesn't look to be a primary or secondary school. (I would associate the word "lecture" with a college) Perhaps the OP could specify?

Turtwig

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Agreed, a school weather it be primary or secondary would never change class times. But a college would, it happens all the time. The OP hasnt stated what type of institution it is, but from reading between the lines, it doesn't look to be a primary or secondary school. (I would associate the word "lecture" with a college) Perhaps the OP could specify?

Swap the word school for university. IT, seminary, education institution and my point is still the same. Altering class times could set a precedent.

Bannasidhe

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Not necessarily. Look at every walk of life, school, work, people have once off events that occur from time to time. The school / employer will try to accommodate the person, if they cant then they cant. That's life. I fail to see how the OP accommodating the student is going to mean the student is going to take advantage. The OP could have a word with the student, tell them this is a once off because its possible this time around.




Indeed I agree, but the OP has already stated that on this particular occasion, it would not be a problem:





Of course not, that would be ridiculous. The OP is referring to a one off event so this point is groundless.



No I don't think lectures should be modified to suit beliefs of religious students.


Again OP, I'd like to ask, what would you do if a student asked for a lecture to be moved for a non religious event eg. interview, wedding, funeral.

You seem intent on missing the point.

Moving a lecture to suit one student sets a precedent.

Rearranging a timetable to conform to religious observances sets a precedent.

Are you suggesting an employer will rearrange an an entire shift so one employee can attend a religious festival?

Or close up shop for the day?

Should we rearrange sporting events that are scheduled for a Sunday when devout Christians are participating?


Don't be absurd. The employee would be expected to take it as a holiday - the sports person in question doesn't participate. It has happened you know.

Indeed, the issue of Sunday sports is being widely debated among Christians (e.g. http://www.christiansinsport.org.uk/news.asp?itemid=4624&itemTitle=The+Sunday+Sport+Dilemma&section=22&sectionTitle=News&from=&to= ) but none have suggested that sports not be played on a Sunday but focus on whether or not they, or their children, will participate.
.
In this particular instance lecture notes etc can be supplied.

Why not modify lectures - if it is ok to move timetables?

And strict observance of the Sabbath is central to the beliefs of some people - if we are willing to accommodate this annual 'once off' - then it follows that a core belief such as no working on the Sabbath must also be accommodated.

Our 3rd level institutions are secular in the main. Once concessions are made as to how the institutions are run to accommodate one student's desire to put their religious observances ahead of their education it opens a whole can of dangerous worms.

I have worked with Muslims, I have lectured to Muslims - I have never been asked (nor have the colleagues - some of them Muslim - I spoke to about this) to move a lecture for prayers or anything else. Should a lecture conflict with prayer time the students are supplied with notes - in the case of it being a lecturer they will have already made the necessary arrangements before the time table is finalised.

Kidchameleon

Jernal wrote: »

Swap the word school for university. IT, seminary, education institution and my point is still the same. Altering class times could set a precedent.

Fair point.

Do you think altering class times for a non religious event would also set a precedent?

MagicMarker

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Fair point.

Do you think altering class times for a non religious event would also set a precedent?

Yes, of course.

lazygal

Four years of undergrad, several years doing post grad diplomas and two years of FE 1 study and I recall two classes being changed, because of a lecturer's bereavement in one case and in another because of building works.

Its not usual for the third level sector to agree to a student's request to change classes as timetabled, be it for religious or other reasons. One person can't ask for things to be rescheduled because he or she has other plans.

Kidchameleon

lazygal wrote: »

Four years of undergrad, several years doing post grad diplomas and two years of FE 1 study and I recall two classes being changed, because of a lecturer's bereavement in one case and in another because of building works.

Its not usual for the third level sector to agree to a student's request to change classes as timetabled, be it for religious or other reasons. One person can't ask for things to be rescheduled because he or she has other plans.

Ok I accept that, I myself get called at certain times to stand in for lecturers for various reasons, I do see classes changed from time to time albeit not that often, and certainly not for trivial matters. I'm curious as to why the OP felt the need to come to A&A to discuss this. It seems to me that the religious aspect of the OP is irrelevant. Everyone here seems to agree that changing a class even for non religious reasons would set a precedent.

Sulla Felix

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Ok I accept that, I myself get called at certain times to stand in for lecturers for various reasons, I do see classes changed from time to time albeit not that often, and certainly not for trivial matters. I'm curious as to why the OP felt the need to come to A&A to discuss this. It seems to me that the religious aspect of the OP is irrelevant. Everyone here seems to agree that changing a class even for non religious reasons would set a precedent.

Probably because he was checking with his peers that he wasn't exhibiting an unconcious bias in his work.

Linoge

I think he's having you on mate!

http://www.when-is.com/eid-al-fitr-2013.asp

Eid al-Fitr in 2013 is on Thursday, the 8th of August.

sbsquarepants

Apparently today is Eid al-Adha. It's a holy day of some sort for muslims , but not the end of Ramadan, which indeed ended 2 months ago.

Pro Hoc Vice

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Apparently today is Eid al-Adha. It's a holy day of some sort for muslims , but not the end of Ramadan, which indeed ended 2 months ago.

It remembers Abrahams willingness to sacrifice his son on the instruction of God.

Penn

infosys wrote: »

It remembers Abrahams willingness to sacrifice his son on the instruction of God.

Which of course, is something to be celebrated.