Location based arguments

MadsL

Dades wrote: »

Only just remembering this now the thread got bumped.

I saw the post you linked to. It's obviously someone who read the first post in an AH thread (about a weird American couple) and posted his one-line response 858 posts in.

I have to ask, would you really be offended by some drive-by generalisation from a some random AH poster? Like actually offended? Should taking offence not really require an element of thought on behalf of the offender, or a shred of credence for their post?

I'd have told the poster to cop on or offer something useful (or maybe just deleted it) but the post was just chaff.

It's not the single posts, it's the drip-drip of multiple unactioned posts that cause offence or at the least annoyance.

And to be honest Dades, as Claire has highlighted, on boards having a go at Americans is absolutely tolerated, but I doubt that posts such as "Stupid fecking Irish, pack of weirdos" would be tolerated.

LoLth

MadsL wrote: »

, but I doubt that posts such as "Stupid fecking Irish, pack of weirdos" would be tolerated.

depends on the context I suppose. Personally I though the taxi driver that sued the ferry company because a stand up comedy act told paddy Irishman jokes that he found racist and personally offensive was just being an opportunistic dick with a thinner skin than a particularly well made ravioli.

I guess context an tone would be key in whether or not a post was actionable.

Orim

MadsL wrote: »

It's not the single posts, it's the drip-drip of multiple unactioned posts that cause offence or at the least annoyance.

And to be honest Dades, as Claire has highlighted, on boards having a go at Americans is absolutely tolerated, but I doubt that posts such as "Stupid fecking Irish, pack of weirdos" would be tolerated.

You won't see the above but how often do you see "fecking Irish are just a load of begrudgers"? That's brought up plently and is fairly well tolerated.

K-9

clairefontaine wrote: »

This stuff seems to happen a lot on US Politics. Yet its a US politics forum.

Somehow I doubt, shut up you stupid micks what do you know you've never even been here would be ok.

But stupid retarded yanks has become normal enough I barely notice it anymore.

MadsL wrote: »

It's not the single posts, it's the drip-drip of multiple unactioned posts that cause offence or at the least annoyance.

And to be honest Dades, as Claire has highlighted, on boards having a go at Americans is absolutely tolerated, but I doubt that posts such as "Stupid fecking Irish, pack of weirdos" would be tolerated.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, there are loads of posts that make dumb, lazy and stupid generalisations about Irish people and never get actioned.

MadsL

K-9 wrote: »

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, there are loads of posts that make dumb, lazy and stupid generalisations about Irish people and never get actioned.

*narrows eyes*

Is that an argument for or against xenophobic statements being actioned?

clairefontaine

MadsL wrote: »

*narrows eyes*

Is that an argument for or against xenophobic statements being actioned?

What K-9 is talking about is not xenophobia as Irish people are not foreigners.On this ste. Insulting foreigners or demeaning an opinion because of their foreign status is xenophobia.

K-9

Yet posters can still be xenophobic about Irish people on an Irish site.

clairefontaine

K-9 wrote: »

Yet posters can still be xenophobic about Irish people on an Irish site.

It comes down to derogatory name calling and slurring. However I see ****ing retarded redneck yanks way more often then I see alcoholic inbred micks.

I tend to ignore such comments and pass them by but it gets frustrating when its not even acknowledged overall that it is accepted.

Fine accept the slurring, call it ajoke, make whatever excuse you want, but at least be honest about it.

MadsL

K-9 wrote: »

Yet posters can still be xenophobic about Irish people on an Irish site.

Is that actionable?

clairefontaine

Here's what showed up when I searched "yanks" on AH.

http://www.boards.ie/search/submit/?subforums=1&forum=7&query=Yanks

Here what came up on US politics.

http://www.boards.ie/search/submit/?subforums=1&forum=1028&query=Yanks

I doubt any Americans or Irish currently residing in the US refer to themselves as yanks by the way.

If you want to tolerate it that's one thing, but the denial that it exists in the first place is what annoys me.

And then saying its only madsl an I who are annoyed by it. Well madsl and I are both outsiders who live in the country whose population is often referred to as retarded. So of course we might be the only ones who notice it, but does that mean its invalid to point it out? Have you asked the folks on US politics how they feel about it?

Given what is said on AH I don't expect you to do anything about it, but it does get irritating.

I'm sure if you had posters from Italy or England being called retarded and they pointed it out, you surely wouldn't say, "but you are the only ones offended by it?"

And I'm not offended, I'm not offended because I know it isn't true, but as I said its the denial that bugs me.

K-9

MadsL wrote: »

Is that actionable?

Only the more extreme/trollish comments in my experience.

clairefontaine wrote: »

If you want to tolerate it that's one thing, but the denial that it exists in the first place is what annoys me.

Who is denying it happens?

And then saying its only madsl an I who are annoyed by it. Well madsl and I are both outsiders who live in the country whose population is often referred to as retarded. So of course we might be the only ones who notice it, but does that mean its invalid to point it out? Have you asked the folks on US politics how they feel about it?

Given what is said on AH I don't expect you to do anything about it, but it does get irritating.

I'm sure if you had posters from Italy or England being called retarded and they pointed it out, you surely wouldn't say, "but you are the only ones offended by it?"

And I'm not offended, I'm not offended because I know it isn't true, but as I said its the denial that bugs me.

I carded a new poster for comments like the above the other day, it would have got acted on quicker but nobody reported the post, posters instead decided to moan about it (derailing and ruining the thread) rather than bring it to the mods attention.

clairefontaine

K-9 wrote: »

Only the more extreme/trollish comments in my experience.



Who is denying it happens?



I carded a new poster for comments like the above the other day, it would have got acted on quicker but nobody reported the post, posters instead decided to moan about it (derailing and ruining the thread) rather than bring it to the mods attention.

I don't report them because when I have nothing happens and they just seem to keep on coming.

LoLth

Its an internet forum. its used by a lot of different people with different ideas on what is and is not racist / xenophobic / insulting.

If we were to action every single post that anyone took offense to we'd nanny-state the communities into non-existence and no-one would be happy.

If we allow an "anything goes" policy then the forums would quickly descend into unusability for the majority of the users as there is a race to the bottom of what it and is not acceptable to say in public.

Boards.ie has opted for a bar somewhere in between the two. To those who feel that the level of xenophobia / racism allowable is not acceptable I would say, grow a thicker skin please. I'm not being dismissive here, I mean it. Go sit on a bus / luas / dart / train near any group of people and eavesdrop on the conversation. Go to a pub on an average night and listen, if you're really brave, go to a pub on the day of a roundyball match or a rugby match and pay attention to what's being said around you. I can guarantee its a lot worse than anything we allow to exist on these forums.

If you read something that is offensive , actually offensive not "could be offensive to someone at some stage " then report it and it will be dealt with. if it is not dealt with , PM the mod and ask why (and I shouldnt have to say this bit but) and remember to ask politely! - dont expect action to be taken instantly, (and again, I say this a lot) as mods a re volunteers and have lives outside of boards that may result in some lag in responding to reports - which have to be prioritised as the mods go along.

We, the admins, have worked hard with Mods and Cmods to remove blatant sexism / bigotry / racism from forums where it was becoming the accepted norm for interaction. We've closed forums that were beyond saving and we regularly remove users that cant get the concept of "acceptable discussion" into their heads.

Do some slip through the net? yes, they do. I'm certainly not going to condemn any mod or forum for missing a few here and there especially when we had a thread a while ago that ran into several pages of posts arguing in defense of being able to post insulting messages in condolence threads for the family of the recently departed. If you report it and it doesnt get actioned, it will most likely be added to the mod's awareness of the type of posts that are happening. If enough reports come in then we can see a pattern and we (admins / Cmods / co-mods) will step in to help the mods get the forum back on track.

Systemic Risk

Masdl, I would like to make a comment on this. I wouldn't be the most prolific poster on boards ever but I have been on it since about 2007 (closed numerous accounts in an outrage, usually from reading too much after hours). I have read/been involved in discussions on numerous threads where you are posting. I do respect your opinion but in some cases it seems you apply (in my opinion and the opinion of others on the threads) American norms to debates which are discussing Irish issues. They may not be explicitly about Ireland but most on thread are discussing from an Irish perspective. This point is has been pointed out to you very often. Of course there is nothing wrong with pointing out a a way of doing things which is more common in America and saying that this is what the Irish should aspire to but it does draw on location based arguments.

You do frequently point out that the way things are done elsewhere are better than in Ireland, which of course again is your right, but it does get peoples backs up a bit especially when it more to do Irish norms rather than a system (such as health or education) that needs improving. I have seen on numerous occasions people giving out about Ireland and Irish people in general (begrudgery and negativity being two common complaints) and others offering to chip in for their plane ticket out of the country. This is not because they are based in another location, it is a reaction criticism which is viewed as unfounded. I would imagine some of the location based arguments you get are just a gut reaction to what the poster views as a criticism of the Irish. It doesn't matter if the person criticising is Irish or foreign, it still elicits a reaction. I have a close family member who is foreign but living in Ireland over 30 years. We are close but as soon as he starts giving out about "the Irish", I get very defensive. Maybe that shows a lack of intellectual development on my part, that I am susceptible to tribal instincts. I am not saying this is what you are doing in your posts, I am just trying to say it is not all about where you are based, it is to do with a perceived criticism.

Of course posters saying you are not entitled to an opinion because you don't live here or because you don't pay tax here is stupid. Anyway I look forward to discussing things with you in the future because we have very differing views on a lot of issues.

MadsL

Systemic Risk wrote: »

Good post

I will be interested to see how this changes over time, at present 40% of AH posters (who expressed a preference) didn't live in Ireland. I'd be interested in hearing an 'official' figure based on IP addresses. Then again seeing that boards is drawing income from largely Irish based advertising I'm not sure they want to disclose that.

I do tend to challenge assumptions I know, and my posting is not deliberately pro any countries/cultures way of doing things. I just point out sometimes where things are handled differently.

Great post though, look forward to getting into it with you again.

clairefontaine

MadsL wrote: »

I will be interested to see how this changes over time, at present 40% of AH posters (who expressed a preference) didn't live in Ireland. I'd be interested in hearing an 'official' figure based on IP addresses. Then again seeing that boards is drawing income from largely Irish based advertising I'm not sure they want to disclose that.

I do tend to challenge assumptions I know, and my posting is not deliberately pro any countries/cultures way of doing things. I just point out sometimes where things are handled differently.

Great post though, look forward to getting into it with you again.

Madsl, I get alot of advertising on my screen not from Ireland.

Also, you don't post much on US politics and it can very strong over there, you know the retarded yanks meme who commit genocide all over the world, damned red neck republicans so rich they can buy their own nuclear weapons.

MadsL

El Guapo! Just posted this on AH

El Guapo! wrote: »

Please do not use this, or any other thread to bash Americans. This includes using "Murica" in a derogatory fashion or making unfair sweeping generalisations. Xenophobic attitudes towards anyone in here is not tolerated and Americans are no different. Any posts from here on in that are considered xenophobic will be met with moderator action.

I have PM'd the AH mods a link to this thread as I am curious to know if this can now be added to the AH charter.

1. Americans will be consider a race rather than as previously not a race, therefore bashing Americans will be treated as racism.

2. 'Merica as a derogatory will be banned.

If xenophobic posts are made. They will be actioned.

The use of the word 'murica will not be banned. If the use of that word intends only to flame. It will be actioned.

MadsL

Deleted User wrote: »

If xenophobic posts are made. They will be actioned.

The use of the word 'murica will not be banned. If the use of that word intends only to flame. It will be actioned.

Is this new policy whoops? I haven't seen 'murica actioned previously nor some xenophobic statements made about Americans.

Overheal

Deleted User wrote: »

If xenophobic posts are made. They will be actioned.

The use of the word 'murica will not be banned. If the use of that word intends only to flame. It will be actioned.

Mother of God.

I've been waiting 8 years to read that.

MadsL wrote: »

1. Americans will be consider a race rather than as previously not a race, therefore bashing Americans will be treated as racism.

It's difficult to think of Americans as a race, given by definition America is inherently multi-ethnic and multi-cultural.


Instead I base the issue upon Bigotry:

Wikipedia wrote:

Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats or views other people with fear, distrust, hatred, contempt, or intolerance on the basis of a person's opinion, ethnicity, race, religion, national origin, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics.

K-9

I can see the reasoning in it, but I take it this will apply to West Brit type posts, it's inherently xenophobic.

Can of worms opened!

nesf

K-9 wrote: »

I can see the reasoning in it, but I take it this will apply to West Brit type posts, it's inherently xenophobic.

Can of worms opened!

This is my main concern with this being as broad a statement as it is. Comments about Unionists in the North can (legitimately) be construed as xenophobia. Actually, the term itself is so broad (all it requires is hatred or fear of strangers, this covers a lot of ground). You may want to ban all of this I don't know but I'd much rather see a more tightly defined rule here that focused on removing the worst of the bigotry as Overheal quite accurately calls it whilst not catching casual generalisations about groups that are not spurred by hate and need to be handled differently.


Oh my kingdom for the days when "Don't be a dick" was enough.

MugMugs

nesf wrote: »

Oh my kingdom for the days when "Don't be a dick" was enough.

Sums it up nicely.

Why isn't it? We are dangerously approaching a situation where we can't call a spade a spade here !

LoLth

MugMugs wrote: »

We are dangerously approaching a situation where we can't call a spade a spade here !

but what if the spade is not just a spade but more accurately a shovel and then again what if it asserts that it is in fact a trenching shovel and not a digging shovel. If you are going to talk about digging implements you must be sure you are correct in your usage of the terms otherwise you're just generalising.

And, if by chance, you are correct and the spade is indeed from the spade family of digging tools are you referring to a spade, a tree spade, a loy , a toy for sandcastle making , a wide spade for loamy soil or a small spade for clay?

be specific (or just read wikipedia and pretend like you know what you're talking about.....)

Dades

All I know is my missis is about to have our third child so I got spade before Christmas.

MugMugs

LoLth wrote: »

but what if the spade is not just a spade but more accurately a shovel and then again what if it asserts that it is in fact a trenching shovel and not a digging shovel. If you are going to talk about digging implements you must be sure you are correct in your usage of the terms otherwise you're just generalising.

And, if by chance, you are correct and the spade is indeed from the spade family of digging tools are you referring to a spade, a tree spade, a loy , a toy for sandcastle making , a wide spade for loamy soil or a small spade for clay?

be specific (or just read wikipedia and pretend like you know what you're talking about.....)

Point taken but by entertaining such an argument are we not moving away from a fundemental rule of this site and potentially allowing Mupperty to exist and trolls to thrive?

It's generally wholly obvious who is out to make a point and support it with a valid argument and those who are out to nit pick away at little cracks serving nothing but to antagonise posters and provoke arguments.

Anybody be they holding a gardening spade or have just been spade can tell the difference making "don't be a dick" as relevant today as it has always been. Micro manage forums (or fail to find a happy medium) and you could be looking at potential spoils further down the line.

anncoates

You certainly don't strike me as a poster that would ever need the aid of blanket bans to argue your point(s), OP.

MadsL

anncoates wrote: »

You certainly don't strike me as a poster that would ever need the aid of blanket bans to argue your point(s), OP.

Thank you.

However, the drip-drip of anti-American sentiment in AH gets quite wearisome, and there are few ways of responding to ignorant "Americans are such stupid rednecks" type posts without feeding the troll of dignifying the idiotic with a response.

Since this level of xenophobia has previously been tolerated (debatable) I'm delighted to see that it will now be actionable as generally it is simply being a dick hiding behind technically not being racist.

MadsL

MugMugs wrote: »

Why isn't it? We are dangerously approaching a situation where we can't call a spade a spade here !

"It is a sad truth, but we have lost the faculty of giving lovely names to things. The man who could call a spade a spade should be compelled to use one. It is the only thing he is fit for."

Oscar Wilde

clairefontaine

MadsL wrote: »

I'm sick of having to deal with the lazy argument "But you don't even live in Ireland" as a counter for an opinion I have expressed.

Is there merit in preventing this type of behaviour - a significant proportion of boards users are outside of Ireland now...

I know publishing your location is optional, but drawing attention to it is irritating as hell.

Anyone else getting a pain in the hole explaining their location isn't a hole in their argument?

I'm going back to your original thesis here.

If there were more stringent intolerance of ad hominem personalising discussions and arguments, then there would be no need for all these other debates about what words you can use and the sliding scale that lies between cultural observation and bigotry.

The example you give in your thesis is an adhominem. As in, you don't live here in Ireland, therefore your opinion is invalid. I agree this should be struck out.

Don't get personal. End of.

And there should be some consistency at least in what slang terms for nationalities are permitted or not. YANKS has long been tolerated because there is still a portion of the population that use it affectionately, and in so doing allows for the more snide uses of it in other contexts. Whereas other slang terms for nationalities are not allowed because they don't sustain a portional use affectionately. I think at this point, YANK has been used enough derogatorily on AH, that it is long past annoying. AH has to make up its mind on what labels on nationalities are ok and what are not and try to stick to it.

The "Americans are such stupid rednecks" comments are ignorant at best and best ignored imo, without placing too much stringency of what people can and can't stay, but sticking to a greater intolerance of adhominem attacks.