Treve Treve Treve

UrbanSea

The best horse in the world and the best filly for a long long time deserves her own thread.

The way she came around the field effortlessly and pulled herself through the field at about 1.50 in the video was very reminiscent of Pebbles' Champion Stakes

It's not often I get over excited about horses but this filly is top top top class

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjERZEXqD0Y

sonnky

Going to Oliver Brady now to have a crack at the triumph.

Overthelast

What price is she for next yr's Arc? Just curious.

UrbanSea

Overthelast wrote: »

What price is she for next yr's Arc? Just curious.

Around 4/1 only 2/1 with WH who call her "unstoppable"

SRFC

Wouldnt get frankel off the bridle :pac:

Overthelast

UrbanSea wrote: »

Around 4/1 only 2/1 with WH who call her "unstoppable"

I wouldn't put it past her winning it again. That was a class field and she destroyed them. She won't have the 3yo allowance but will retain the fillies allowance. Some breeding prospect down the line. Good to see new owners getting into the game and winning.

Oscars Well.

She certainly justified that price tag of hers!

UrbanSea

How much did she go for

tryfix

Wise Dan?


She beat Orfevre by 5l at 1 1/2lb a length or 7.5lb - 3lb sex allowance = about 5lb superiority over a horse who has run up to 127 before, but if he ran to 127 today that would mean Intello ran to 126 and Kizuna to 123 with Panglai Pavilion running to 121 which would be a stretch for him.

So at best she ran to 131, and she more likely ran to about 128/129. Which would put her equal to and probably just a bit superior to Danedream's 128 Arc win and ahead of Zarkava's 127 win.

Would think she'll be rated at 129/130 by the International handicapper.

Oscars Well.

UrbanSea wrote: »

How much did she go for

It was reported Al-Thani paid in the region of 8million for her

UrbanSea

What rating has Wise Dan? She was given a provisional RPR of 130. Seems very low I think

Bench Press

SRFC wrote: »

Wouldnt get frankel off the bridle :pac:

the "great" Frankel wouldn't get 12f in a horsebox

jimjamcos

A lot went wrong for her today and she still did it easily. Trainer also said during week that she's strengthening massively from race to race and with only a handful of runs to her name, she'll be a frightening sight next year.

Wise Dan was beaten on the polytrack in America last night which is disappointing as he too looked unbeatable..

SRFC

Bench Press wrote: »

the "great" Frankel wouldn't get 12f in a horsebox

He would be on his way back into the ring by the time this filly went by the furlong marker over 8 10 or 12 furlongs IMO,not to go off topic btw just saying.

tryfix

UrbanSea wrote: »

What rating has Wise Dan? She was given a provisional RPR of 130. Seems very low I think

Wise Dan's best RPR is 128.

His official rating is 129 which is real top drawer level.

Those RPR ratings are a bit dodgy. Frankel had an RPR of 143, yet he could only beat Nathaniel 4 1/4l.

Nathaniel RPR 127 would hardly have been good enough to beat Orfevre RPR 129 for 2nd today never mind be good enough to threaten Treve who finished 5l in front of Orfevre today.

TheMilkyPirate

Bench Press wrote: »

the "great" Frankel wouldn't get 12f in a horsebox

Ok.

longshotvalue

I wouldn't be sure Treve was the best horse running today.. Even is she is right out of the top drawer.. I just watched moonlight cloud again, and its laughable how she won that race. It was like a silly made for tv race coming from last 2 first against a load of donkeys, Except there was a Solid Group 1 performer in GLB with his favored conditions.

SRFC

Unreal from Moonlight cloud but seriously GLB isnt a top notcher hes been lucky to win 2 grp 1s imo beating the likes of slade power and Hoof it in one and PENITENT and pintura in another one,treve is a better filly than Moonlight cloud imo

UrbanSea

The Foret is probably the worst group 1 in Europe after the Prix Jean Prat. Gordon lord Byron is consistent but well below top class.

Treve hammered Intello and Intello was very close to Moonlight Cloud over a trip far below his optimum

tryfix

aidankkk wrote: »

I wouldn't be sure Treve was the best horse running today.. Even is she is right out of the top drawer.. I just watched moonlight cloud again, and its laughable how she won that race. It was like a silly made for tv race coming from last 2 first against a load of donkeys, Except there was a Solid Group 1 performer in GLB with his favored conditions.

Moonlight Cloud was entitled to beat them like that and by even further.

She's a 122 OR horse running against GLB 114 and Garswood 111, add in the sex allowance of 3lb and that's 11lbs in hand of GLB and 14lbs she had today on Garswood beaten 3 lengths and a neck and there's nothing to get too hyperbolic about in that performance.

Bench Press

TheMilkyPirate wrote: »

Ok.

Frankel is a brit hype horse who was wrapped in cotton wool for his entire career, to suggest he would beat this filly at 12f in Paris today in the best race in Europe is nonsense

SRFC

Bench Press wrote: »

Frankel is a brit hype horse who was wrapped in cotton wool for his entire career, to suggest he would beat this filly at 12f in Paris today in the best race in Europe is nonsense

Hardly nonsense ffs :rolleyes:

jimjamcos

No point having such a debate really...she's only getting started while Frankel's finished. With a brave owner and trainer, Treve is going to get many more chances to enhance her reputation further next season. If she goes unbeaten and wins another ARC in the style of today before retiring then she'll definitely be as good as we've ever seen.

convert

It's a race where a horse needs everything to go right for them, and even though Treve may not have got the run that the trainer wanted for her, she, for the most part, was out of trouble (apart from the 4 or 5 'bumps' she got from Doyle), and had a good run up the outside, even though not always preferable. And when she went, she really seemed to steal the march on the others, and she was gone before they knew what happened. A good winner, though. Be interesting to watch and see where she goes next season.

hucklebuck

Frankel was overrated due to his trainer being a Sir and fighting cancer and Lord Grimthorpe being involved, to say Treve would not give him a race is akin to saying Sizing Europe is a lay proposition against Quito De La Roque and Rubi Light :rolleyes:

She is the best filly since Zarkava imo.

SRFC

hucklebuck wrote: »

Frankel was overrated due to his trainer being a Sir and fighting cancer and Lord Grimthorpe being involved, to say Treve would not give him a race is akin to saying Sizing Europe is a lay proposition against Quito De La Roque and Rubi Light :rolleyes:

She is the best filly since Zarkava imo.

Overrated because sir henry was battling get a grip ffs the most pathetic post ive ever seen on this forum,nice after timing btw re;Sizing.

hucklebuck

SRFC wrote: »

Overrated because sir henry was battling get a grip ffs the most pathetic post ive ever seen on this forum,nice after timing btw re;Sizing.

Yes, exactly, a Knight Of The Realm and a Baron involved in the horse both who have done a lot for English racing, that is the wildest conspiracy of all times.

Lol about after timing, you posted you were laying him because he was 11, that is dumb

SRFC

hucklebuck wrote: »

Yes, exactly, a Knight Of The Realm and a Baron involved in the horse both who have done a lot for English racing, that is the wildest conspiracy of all times.

Lol about after timing, you posted you were laying him because he was 11, that is dumb

A serious cheap shot at the horse 14 races unbeaten,sure he only won them races because Henry had cancer :rolleyes:


Eh did I lay him? please bump my post there and read it properly before you go and make a fool of yourself.

Overthelast

Frankel is retired to stud, after a glittering career on the track hammering the living daylights out of all before him. It's testament to how bullet proof he was that people still feel the need to try to find non existant holes in him by making daft comparisons. I guess the same people are clinging to the hope he fails at stud to justify some warped view of his brilliant achievements on the track.

He's universally accepted as one of the greatest racehorses of all time. Hype?
Frankly, that's absurd.
Back to moonlight cloud. She bet GLB,
who has a recent Grp 1 on his cv. The rest of the field were average enough. Treve hammered a field full of champions and multiple group 1 winners. If you put her up against inferior opposition like moonlight cloud faced today, Treve would have won on the bridle.

hucklebuck

SRFC wrote: »

A serious cheap shot at the horse 14 races unbeaten,sure he only won them races because Henry had cancer :rolleyes:
.

Did I say he was crap or his rating was inflated possibly due to outside infleunces?

Harbinger was trained by a Sir too and Timeform gave him 140, would you rate him as good as Sea The Stars, Shergar or Dancing Brave?

Anyway I think Treve is smashing and I hope she stays in training

hucklebuck

Overthelast wrote: »

Frankel is retired to stud, after a glittering career on the track hammering the living daylights out of all before him. It's testament to how bullet proof he was that people still feel the need to try to find non existant holes in him by making daft comparisons. I guess the same people are clinging to the hope he fails at stud to justify some warped view of his brilliant achievements on the track.

He's universally accepted as one of the greatest racehorses of all time. Hype?

I said I thought he was too generously assessed by Timeform, not knocking the horse.

SRFC

hucklebuck wrote: »

Did I say he was crap or his rating was inflated possibly due to outside infleunces?

Harbinger was trained by a Sir too and Timeform gave him 140, would you rate him as good as Sea The Stars, Shergar or Dancing Brave?

Anyway I think Treve is smashing and I hope she stays in training

You said overrated because Henry had cancer a pathetic statement to make and quite simply an idiotic one,


Who knows what he could've been he waseimproving at a serious rate,he beat a derby and arc winner by about 15 lengths easily on his last start.

hucklebuck

SRFC wrote: »

You said overrated because Henry had cancer a pathetic statement to make and quite simply an idiotic one

Not really, I don't think it is unrealistic that they may have assessed him more generously for Sir Henry. Look at the rating being given to horses he ran against to keep his rating high.

SRFC wrote: »

Who knows what he could've been he waseimproving at a serious rate,he beat a derby and arc winner by about 15 lengths easily on his last start.

He beat Cirrus Des Aigles by 1 1/2 lengths on his last start, they gave Cirrus a rating of 135 which would have him on a par with Arazi and Nashwan.

Sure who knows what he could have been but we were lucky enough to see him run as a 4 year old, the great before him STS was retired at 3 and he put on 80Kgs after he retired so he could have been anything at 4.

Gringo180

This is the best filly I have ever seen, an absolute machine of a horse, her turn of foot is electrifying. She put the race to bed in a matter of strides, absolutely trounced one of the best Arc fields in a long long time. Superstar!!

Gringo180

SRFC wrote: »

He would be on his way back into the ring by the time this filly went by the furlong marker over 8 10 or 12 furlongs IMO,not to go off topic btw just saying.

Give over.

convert

Guys, can we please try and keep this thread relatively on topic - this is supposed to be about Treve, not about Cecil or Frankel (although comparisons are fine, but continued debate on irrelevant and minor points is not). Start another thread if you want to continue the debate, or else take it to PM.

UrbanSea

Anyone know why Dettori got the ride on Treve yet Richard Hughes was allowed keep the ride on Toronado having never won a group 1 on him yet Jarnet had been unbeaten on Treve including her Diane win

hucklebuck

UrbanSea wrote: »

Anyone know why Dettori got the ride on Treve yet Richard Hughes was allowed keep the ride on Toronado having never won a group 1 on him yet Jarnet had been unbeaten on Treve including her Diane win

There is only one possible explanation, connections had been supplying him with his coke and he threatened to tell the authorities on them. If its not this the connections are idiots!

jimjamcos

UrbanSea wrote: »

Anyone know why Dettori got the ride on Treve yet Richard Hughes was allowed keep the ride on Toronado having never won a group 1 on him yet Jarnet had been unbeaten on Treve including her Diane win

Hannons probably insisted Hughes stay on him while Maarek-Head clearly didn't do likewise with Jarnet. She seems like a nice, easy-going lady who's unlikely to ever go against owners wishes. The fact that she never wanted Treve to run in the Arc and was totally against entering her until new owners insisted would back that up. Even her talk afterwards when she said "I'd like to ask the Sheikh if I can give her a rest" suggests she'll rarely rock the boat and whatever owners say goes. Doubtful that that's always the case with the Hannons.

tryfix

Treve closed out the final 600m of the Arc in 34.74s. That was faster than the Prix de l'Abbaye over 5f (34.83s) and faster than the Prix de la Foret over 7f (35.36s).

It's quite a remarkable feat for a 1m4f race, tempered only by the fact that they went a steady pace early on in the Arc (resulting in an unexceptional final time), while in the Abbaye and Foret they went very fast early and the pace collapsed.

While finishing speed is largely a product of early pace, and Treve was undoubtedly well placed to show it off to maximum effect on the front turning into the straight, the fact she closed out a 1m4f race with splits of 11.82, 11.04 and 11.88 suggests she could have won the race from anywhere in the field.

http://www.racingpost.com/horses/home.sd?story=1542729#newsArchiveTabs=last7DaysNews

There's the proof of how good that performance was.

UrbanSea

Treve Treve Treve

Itziger

convert wrote: »

It's a race where a horse needs everything to go right for them, and even though Treve may not have got the run that the trainer wanted for her, she, for the most part, was out of trouble (apart from the 4 or 5 'bumps' she got from Doyle), and had a good run up the outside, even though not always preferable. And when she went, she really seemed to steal the march on the others, and she was gone before they knew what happened. A good winner, though. Be interesting to watch and see where she goes next season.

So a wide draw is the perfect one now for Longchamp. She was out of trouble apart from the 4 or 5 bumps she got !!!!!!! She stole a march you say, as in, caught em napping. Look at the video again. When Jarnet presses the button at 2:08:00 (approx!), both 2nd and 3rd are directly behind her, a bare length away. Both their jockeys send their horses after her. They simply couldn't live with her.

UrbanSea

The thing I really like about Treve is the way she always runs quicker than the other horses.

UrbanSea

Try fix that is a good article. As impressive as Moonlight Clouds turn of foot was it was against much inferior horses, there is little doubt that Treve is one of the best Arc winners in recent years

SRFC

Intello retired.

UrbanSea

SRFC wrote: »

Intello retired.

Shame

Johner

UrbanSea wrote: »

The thing I really like about Treve is the way she always runs quicker than the other horses.

Just watching the Vermeille again the scary thing is how Dettori nearly managed to get a machine like her beat. :pac: Surely the owner will stay with Jarnet now, as you said he left Hughes on when he hadn't even done anything on Toronado, this guy has just won the Arc. Might aswell get Seb Sanders instead of Dettori, he would do the same job.

hucklebuck

Good article Tryfix.

I just can't get my head around the ratings. I know how they work and all that but I just can't have her as a better animal than Zarkava, I also think Treve should be rated higher than Toronado.

Have they changed how they rate horses now where they go mad on one race and then slightly tweak it if they have three **** ones?

tryfix

hucklebuck wrote: »

Good article Tryfix.

I just can't get my head around the ratings. I know how they work and all that but I just can't have her as a better animal than Zarkava, I also think Treve should be rated higher than Toronado.

Have they changed how they rate horses now where they go mad on one race and then slightly tweak it if they have three **** ones?

It's only the Racing Post Ratings and not the official ratings. It's hard to gauge a race by the initial result, so if an improving horse gets close to a good one they've got to be careful that they don't overrate that horse and use the collateral form to assess the true value of the form. Which is why you see Al Kazeem's Ascot form being subsequently marked down.

Treve has the same RPR rating as Toronado, but Treve would receive 3lbs for the sex allowance. So she'd theoretically finish ahead of him with the sex allowance, but finish level if she wasn't receiving that allowance.

The sex allowance is an extra bit of help for the fillies and it's different than the weight for age allowance which doesn't affect the ratings.

Gringo180

Treve would piss all over Zarkava, this filly just trounced one of the best Arc fields in many a year in second gear.

Slattsy

Gringo180 wrote: »

Treve would piss all over Zarkava, this filly just trounced one of the best Arc fields in many a year in second gear.

Ah be jaysus that's some statement.