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MV Magner pays €2.85m for a Montjeu x Finsceal Beo Colt

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    #32
    UrbanSea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,335 ✭✭✭✭UrbanSea


    That sister to Was is hardly going to Richard Hannon is she


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    #33
    tryfix
    Registered Users Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭tryfix


    UrbanSea wrote: »
    That sister to Was is hardly going to Richard Hannon is she
    Both this 5 million guineas one and the last 1.5 million guineas one Al Jassasiyah seem to be with or going to A Fabre in France.

    That Al Jassasiyah must be a very decent sort given that the same connections are willing to shell out 5 million for her sister.


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    #34
    UrbanSea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,335 ✭✭✭✭UrbanSea


    Richard Hannon Jnr was there with them when they bought her that's why I thought


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    #35
    Go Native
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Go Native


    Money well spent from an investment point of view on the colt. In terms of the filly, well it was silly money and no surprise to see Qatar bought her. I guess they are in it for the fun more than business, so fair enough I guess, but not a chance in hell they'll will ever make a profit on her or her progeny. The colt on the other hand has serious stallion potential if he can win a group one.


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    #36
    Go Native
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Go Native


    tryfix wrote: »
    A massive price that will be hard to recuperate unless he turns out to be very special. Lot of interesting aspects to the sale. A timely boost to the Montjeu lines commercial image at a time when Coolmore are trying to lay the groundwork for Camelot and St Nicholas Abbey starting their stud careers and it will do their other Derby winner Pour Moi no harm either.

    But wtf was Richard Hannon junior doing underbidding for such a massively priced middle distance prospect? A bit out of their usual comfort zone pricewise and distance wise.


    Wouldn't need to be special at all. They will campaign him selectively and win a group one that they tend to block entry like the Phoenix stakes or the National Stakes. His pedigree is outstanding and an average racing career by Ballydoyle standards will see him turn into a very commercial stallion indeed.


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    #37
    tryfix
    Registered Users Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭tryfix


    Go Native wrote: »
    Wouldn't need to be special at all. They will campaign him selectively and win a group one that they tend to block entry like the Phoenix stakes or the National Stakes. His pedigree is outstanding and an average racing career by Ballydoyle standards will see him turn into a very commercial stallion indeed.
    You'd be waiting for hell to freeze over before a Montjeu colt would win either of those races, the racing post trophy or one of the end of season Criteriums in France would be more like it.

    Anyhow, it's good advertising for the Montjeu sire line and so it won't be money wasted even if he's a dud.


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    #38
    Go Native
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Go Native


    tryfix wrote: »
    You'd be waiting for hell to freeze over before a Montjeu colt would win either of those races, the racing post trophy or one of the end of season Criteriums in France would be more like it.

    Anyhow, it's good advertising for the Montjeu sire line and so it won't be money wasted even if he's a dud.

    The reason there was so much interest in this cold wasn't because of Montjeu, it was because of Finsceal Beo who had loads of speed. The reason it sold for so much is because it's a potential colt who can buck the trend with Montjeu and win at 6 and 7 furlongs.

    Don't be so silly to think Coolmore would spend that kind of money to win a Racing Post Trophy when they could win it with 7 or 8 of their own home breds...


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    #39
    anuprising
    Registered Users Posts: 373 ✭✭anuprising


    quick one for you all

    have any of you been in the stable block of the sales ,and watch the horses being sold before they go into the sales ring ?

    you do know how that works im assuming


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    #40
    tryfix
    Registered Users Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭tryfix


    Go Native wrote: »
    The reason there was so much interest in this cold wasn't because of Montjeu, it was because of Finsceal Beo who had loads of speed. The reason it sold for so much is because it's a potential colt who can buck the trend with Montjeu and win at 6 and 7 furlongs.

    Don't be so silly to think Coolmore would spend that kind of money to win a Racing Post Trophy when they could win it with 7 or 8 of their own home breds...
    What are Montjeus bought for? Answer to win Racing Post Trophies and other top staying 2yo races and to contest the top 12f races at 3 and older.


    Motivator, Authorised, Camelot, St Nicholas Abbey, Fortune and Fame. Recital, Jan Vermeer etc.

    That's what they do... I await the arrival of this first Montjeu speed ball with bated breath.


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    #41
    Go Native
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Go Native


    tryfix wrote: »
    What are Montjeus bought for? Answer to win Racing Post Trophies and other top staying 2yo races and to contest the top 12f races at 3 and older.


    Motivator, Authorised, Camelot, St Nicholas Abbey, Fortune and Fame. Recital, Jan Vermeer etc.

    That's what they do... I await the arrival of this first Montjeu speed ball with bated breath.

    I'm not disputing they excel in those type of races, they quite clearly do, but I think this colt has a chance to break the mould. A Montjeu will come along and break the mould, and when he does he will be a cash machine as a stallion prospect.


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    #42
    tryfix
    Registered Users Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭tryfix


    Go Native wrote: »
    I'm not disputing they excel in those type of races, they quite clearly do, but I think this colt has a chance to break the mould. A Montjeu will come along and break the mould, and when he does he will be a cash machine as a stallion prospect.
    It's an interesting prospect, Montjeu didn't seem to get the flashest or speediest of mares sent to him. At least none spring to mind.


    Sadlers Wells would be nearest comparable stamina influencing stallion to Montjeu and he had a fair few 7f GP1 winning 2yo colts in his career. The likes of El Prado, Fatherland, King Of Kings in the National/Vincent O'Brien stakes. Refuse To Bend and the Dewhurst dead heaters Scenic and Prince Of Dance..

    So I suppose a 7f GP 1 winning 2yo colt for Montjeu is possible, although Finsceal Beo isn't necessarily going to be that big of a speed influence, but maybe the colt's quality conformation will overcome that problem.


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    #43
    UrbanSea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,335 ✭✭✭✭UrbanSea


    A lot of money for an unproven broomdmare isn't she by Mr Greeley he wouldn't blow me away as a brood mare sire. Ill give everyone posting in this thread twenty quid when Montjeu had a Phoenix winner


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    #44
    Go Native
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Go Native


    What about a 4 runner Phoenix stakes due to Coolmore block entering??


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    #45
    Go Native
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Go Native


    There will always be exceptions to the rule.

    Take Dansili for example. He's a stallion most familiar with top class mile / mile and a quarter / mile and a half + horses. e.g Famous Name, Harbinger, Rail Link, The Fugue, Dandino, Giofra.

    Not many people would of given him much chance of producing a Phoenix Stakes winner, but he did, with Zoffany in 2010.

    I can't imagine Coolmore going to the levels they did for this colt if they thought he'd develop into yet another typical Racing Post type winner. They have them at home in bundles....


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    #46
    UrbanSea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,335 ✭✭✭✭UrbanSea


    Dansili gets plenty of milers though, milers who will have enough speed to win over 6 at 2. Montjeu is all stamina generally, the most precocious Montjeu I can think of is Wading and she won over seven at 2 she looked to have a good turn of foot but she had an exceptional pedigree


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    #47
    Go Native
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Go Native


    Yes, generally you are right, absolutely.

    I personally feel however there will come a day where Coolmore will look to develop a speed Montjeu stallion and I think this may be the one.

    Don't get me wrong now. I'm not saying this colt is going to be trained as a sprinter, but I highly suspect he will be aimed to win at the top level at 7 furlongs and I wouldn't be surprised if their PR machine aren't tempted to block entry the Phoenix stakes at 6 furlongs and look to take that too.


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    #48
    Go Native
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Go Native


    I'll put it to you like this. If Coolmore want to win the Phoenix Stakes with this guy then they will.


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    #49
    UrbanSea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,335 ✭✭✭✭UrbanSea


    I see what you mean but you can't create something that isn't there. Even if they try to block enter a race like that Bolger or someone will have a horse to take it on, they'd know well a Montjeu is unlikely to win a Phoenix if they have something half decent in there. Camelot is probably the speediest one they will get given he won a Guineas


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    #50
    Go Native
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Go Native


    UrbanSea wrote: »
    I see what you mean but you can't create something that isn't there. Even if they try to block enter a race like that Bolger or someone will have a horse to take it on, they'd know well a Montjeu is unlikely to win a Phoenix if they have something half decent in there. Camelot is probably the speediest one they will get given he won a Guineas


    I'd disagree. Nobody block enters like Coolmore and they can win the Phoenix stakes with whichever horse their PR team prefer, obviously providing there is a certain level of ability there in the first place.

    Bolger just isn't able to compete with them unless he has something v v v v v v v exceptional, which is unlikely and 9 times out of 10 he doesn't. There are 92 entries for next year's 2000 gns in Ireland, Bolger is responsible for just 1 of those entries.


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    #51
    UrbanSea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,335 ✭✭✭✭UrbanSea


    Not sure how you could say Bolger can't compete with them he is phenomenally successful and 95% of the horses owned by his wife. Teo, St Jovite, Dawn Approach, New Approach, Finsceal Beo, Lush Lashes and many more all serious horses. Of those 90+ Coolmore will have two of those in single figure prices for the race come the day


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    #52
    UrbanSea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,335 ✭✭✭✭UrbanSea


    And in fairness this year looks the exception, he doesn't appear to have great 2 year olds


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    #53
    Go Native
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Go Native


    Bolger is a savage trainer , but the fact remains he will always be low on fire power when it comes to the Phoenix Stakes and I'm not sure the race is too high on his list when it comes to entries.

    I agree he does savage with what he has, but he's only won the Phoenix Stakes 3 times compared to Coolmore's 16 times. This isn't a reflection of his ability, but more a reflection of the block entry power of Coolmore.

    The Phoenix Stakes is a very very very commercial race. Block entries usually win the race rather than the best two year old at the time.

    Bolger may well have the better two year old next year, but he's no mug and won't bother paying 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th entry fees for a race he knows he's going to be basically outnumbered in. He seems more than happy to wait for less commercial entry based races.


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    #54
    tryfix
    Registered Users Posts: 2,702 ✭✭✭tryfix


    Go Native wrote: »
    There will always be exceptions to the rule.

    Take Dansili for example. He's a stallion most familiar with top class mile / mile and a quarter / mile and a half + horses. e.g Famous Name, Harbinger, Rail Link, The Fugue, Dandino, Giofra.

    Not many people would of given him much chance of producing a Phoenix Stakes winner, but he did, with Zoffany in 2010.

    I can't imagine Coolmore going to the levels they did for this colt if they thought he'd develop into yet another typical Racing Post type winner. They have them at home in bundles....
    Dansili has a Dosage Index of[SIZE=-1] 1.48 CD = 0.27, which allows him to transmit both speed and stamina as a stallion.

    Montjeu has a Dosage Index of [/SIZE][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1] 0.89 CD = 0.08, a 12f-cup horse pedigree which explains why he doesn't transmit precocious speed as a stallion.

    The last ten winners of the Phoenix were by stallions who can transmit speed.

    Henry The Navigator x 2 winners had a [/SIZE][/SIZE][SIZE=-1] DI = 1.16 CD = 0.31.
    [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Strategic Prince x 1 had a DI = 1.55 CD = 0.36.
    Dansili x 1 a DI = [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1.48 CD = 0.27.
    Danehill Dancer x 2 had a [/SIZE][SIZE=-1] DI = 2.09 CD = 0.50.
    Danehill x 2 had a [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]DI = 1.89 CD = 0.37.
    Mr Greely x 1 had a [/SIZE][SIZE=-1] DI = 4.14 CD = 0.93.
    Entrepreneur x 1 had a [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]DI = 1.17 CD = 0.26.

    Even the Great stamina influence Sadler's Wells who never had a GP1 6f winning 2 yo had a [/SIZE][SIZE=-1][SIZE=-1]DI = 2.82 CD = 0.76[/SIZE].


    [/SIZE]


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    #55
    Go Native
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Go Native


    I don't disagree with any of the above, but my point remains that there will always be an exception to the rule and Coolmore simply wouldn't pay that kind of money for another middle distance horse. They already have them at home.


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    #56
    UrbanSea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,335 ✭✭✭✭UrbanSea


    Montjeu siring a six furlong group 1 winner would be like Danzig siring a Leger winner. It will not happen


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    #57
    Go Native
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Go Native


    If Coolmore PR want this horse to have "so much speed" then that's what he's going to have. It's not commercially viable for Coolmore to produce yet another middle distance Montjeu stallion.


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    #58
    UrbanSea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,335 ✭✭✭✭UrbanSea


    They cannot create a horse that isn't there


    Camelot is the most precocious Montjeu and he wouldn't have done it. You would realistically need the dam to be a sprinter with a total sprint pedigree to even have a chance.


    What makes you so sure this horse will precocious enough at 2, this is pure speculation this wasn't even bought from a breeze ups. I don't know where you're getting this from, Coolmore don't buy Montjeus for their precociusness they buy them to win Derbys


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    #59
    Go Native
    Closed Accounts Posts: 352 ✭✭Go Native


    They can by block entries. Obviously assuming a reasonable level of ability.


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    #60
    UrbanSea
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,335 ✭✭✭✭UrbanSea


    Yeah and have to hope that no other horse in the UK and Ireland can beat it.


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    #61
    Slattsy
    Registered Users Posts: 15,775 ✭✭✭✭Slattsy


    Go Native wrote: »
    They can by block entries. Obviously assuming a reasonable level of ability.

    And hope no other trainer runs theirs :confused:


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