Over kill

xchrisshana

I know there is only one kind of dead but what .cals would ye consider an over kill for deer at max 300 yards

bravestar

xchrisshana wrote: »

I know there is only one kind of dead but what cals would ye consider an over kill for deer at max 300 yards

.50 cal

The Aussie

It's down to personal preference and terrain the shooting is being carried out on but....

For me it's anything over a 30-06

xchrisshana

The Aussie wrote: »

It's down to personal preference and terrain the shooting is being carried out on but....

For me it's anything over a 30-06

I'm thinking about meat damage and shot placement would you be going for neck shots -head shots with the bigger .cals ???? Would it be messy

The Aussie

Ah man, this is like starting a conversation about Religion, everyone (who is into Religion) thinks theirs is best and very little compromise is observed, same with Deer Calibers and Shot placement.

If you ask me for a straight answer I would say a .243 is big enough for all the Deer species in Ireland barring a Red Stag during the Rut when he has his angries up where a .243 can be found wanting at times with a Chest shot, I would not be after Reds anyway and all my shots would be under 200m so a .243 is ample for all my needs including enviromentals, someone in other parts of the country will give you a different answer.

deerhunter1

The Aussie wrote: »

Ah man, this is like starting a conversation about Religion, everyone (who is into Religion) thinks theirs is best and very little compromise is observed, same with Deer Calibers and Shot placement.

If you ask me for a straight answer I would say a .243 is big enough for all the Deer species in Ireland barring a Red Stag during the Rut when he has his angries up where a .243 can be found wanting at times with a Chest shot, I would not be after Reds anyway and all my shots would be under 200m so a .243 is ample for all my needs including enviromentals, someone in other parts of the country will give you a different answer.

308:D

The Aussie

deerhunter1 wrote: »

308:D

But I can't count that high :pac:.........

FISMA

xchrisshana wrote: »

I know there is only one kind of dead but what .cals would ye consider an over kill for deer at max 300 yards

I shoot a 180gr or 165gr from a 30-06 and never have runners with any hit. On occasions I have fed a 220gr but have felt that was a bit much.

If I were to do it again, I would probably use a 7mm Rem Mag. I am currently falling in love with them.

Likewise, I would say that the 338 Win, Lapua, Rem Ultra, and Norma mags are probably close to being a bit much.

However, I would use them. If I had the chance.:rolleyes:

My 338 Win Mag is as fast at 200yards as my 30-06 is at the muzzle. Now that's fast! Throw on a +200gr bullet and you've got some Kinetic Energy.

I would make the case for a 338 Win Mag for a big red at 300 yards. However, for a small deer inside of 300ya, it could be too much. At up close, < 100yards, on a small deer, I would be concerned with a pass through.

A 338 Win Mag in Ireland is great if you want the future option of going to the Continent or Africa to hunt Elk or other big game at distance. The 308's, 30-06, and 270's may not be fair on big game at distance.

The Aussie

FISMA wrote: »

I shoot a 180gr or 165gr from a 30-06 and never have runners with any hit. On occasions I have fed a 220gr but have felt that was a bit much.

The 30-06 used to be the first rifle I would pick up if I was asked to cull Big Feral's back in Oz, the likes of Camel, Bulls, Buffalo, Horse, Donkey and the like.

I found the Hydrostatic Shock of a 30-06 was a game ender, doing a gut was a chore as the insides were a fair bit softer than normal, on the plus side they did not go that far.

FISMA

The Aussie wrote: »

I found the Hydrostatic Shock of a 30-06 was a game ender, doing a gut was a chore as the insides were a fair bit softer than normal, on the plus side they did not go that far.

I am reaching out farther these days. Sometimes 350 - 425ya. I find the 30-06 is fantastic and hasn't a problem keeping its accuracy and precision.

True, a bad placed shot high or back can wreak havoc on the meat. However, I usually try and hit the shoulder. The 30-06 hasn't any problem getting through to the heart/lungs afterward.

I have used a lot of Hornady stuff in the past. Superformance has been great out and around 425ya.

However, I am now on to Sierra Gameking bullets. The 165gr's are performing well. I still push the 180's because historically, they have worked for me.

Nosler Partitions are my second choice and I am sussing out some Norma Kalahari.

Been reading up on Lapua Naturalis but have to admit to having sticker shock when I saw a box of 20 in the States for $102.:eek: That's about $5 a round. I could see that for 50 cal or 338 mag's, but a 30-06? Is Naturalis really twice as good as Gamekings, Partitions, or Kalaharis?

rowa

The Aussie wrote: »

If you ask me for a straight answer I would say a .243 is big enough for all the Deer species in Ireland barring a Red Stag during the Rut when he has his angries up where a .243 can be found wanting at times with a Chest shot, I would not be after Reds anyway and all my shots would be under 200m so a .243 is ample for all my needs including enviromentals, someone in other parts of the country will give you a different answer.

200 yards with a .243 , bah ! Its capable of much more than that !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hY0w1c-gf18&feature=youtube_gdata_player

The Aussie

rowa wrote: »

200 yards with a .243 , bah ! Its capable of much more than that !

Yeh I know, but I'm more into Deer Stalking and not Deer Shooting, the term Deer Stalking has become somewhat generic of late, I'm one of those odd people who does not mind to much if I have a failed Stalk.

Traumadoc

I think a 270 would cover everything in Ireland , but so too would a 6.5 X55.


Used a 30.06 pig shooting in Australia also against goats - but that was culling and we were not doing it for the meat.

German pointer

I only have experience of .243 and .270. Most deer ran after being hit with the .243 between 10 and 100 yards . with the .270 only one ran a distance of 80 yards a fallow stag everything else dropped on the spot. I hit a red stag last week at 453 yards with the. 270 and he only took 3 slow steps before he went down. I take neck shots below 150 and hart lung above the 150 mark. Yes 453 is a long shot but I have shot more deer sub 50 yards then I have over the 200 yard mark. I like to use the full range my rifle and scope has to offer

One shot on kill

I would of though the distance is irrelevant once its a humane kill. So if your sure of a humane kill at that distance then work away. Good shooting all the same FairPlay.

Cass

FISMA wrote: »

Been reading up on Lapua Naturalis but have to admit to having sticker shock when I saw a box of 20 in the States for $102.:eek: That's about $5 a round. I could see that for 50 cal or 338 mag's, but a 30-06? Is Naturalis really twice as good as Gamekings, Partitions, or Kalaharis?

I have used Naturalis in a few calibers and they are very effectiveat dropping any animal. They dump all their energy on impact and have never seen them going straight through.


Now for the kicker. They are a perfect weather round. They do not like wind or even a breeze. I only tried some a friend gave me (about 9 of them) the other day at the range. He gave me some ammo as he got rid of his .308. I fired the Naturalis at 100 yards and they were fine. I moved to 200 as the wind was picking up and they were inconsistent. They "grouped" in terms of they held for 2 to 3 shots. Not a tight group or even a good one however as soon as a gust came they were immediately and drastically blown off target.


IMO it's down to the design. They have a bottle nose design. The tip of the bullet is almost the same size as the Ogive and the nosler tip has a visible and obvious "gap" between it and the copper jacket. I think this all leads to a poor ballistic bullet. So regardless of what the company claim the BC off the bullet is in real world conditions they are a little to inconsistent for my liking especially (as you said) when you consider they are over €55 per 20 here and there are a number of other better, more consistent rounds available.

I've used them in:

• 90gr in .243
• 170gr in 308
• 140gr in 6.5
• 170gr in 30-06

Without going into a soap box speech i think overkill is a non topic here. Any caliber with the right bullet choice will drop any animal. To me the only time overkill might enter my mind is if the bullet continuously passes through the animal. In terms of foxing my mate had this issue each time using a certain bullet in his swift. With a quick change of ammo the problem disappeared.

I use the Nosler tipped 95gr in .243 for deer and 58gr V-Max for foxes.
I use the Hornady 178gr A-max in the .308 for deer and foxes.

In both circumstances the animal drops instantly with no through and through. So for me there is no overkill as the animal doesn't suffer and the kill is quick and clean.

The only time i would consider overkill is when an absurdly large caliber is used on a small animal. So a .338 or similar on foxes. That's overkill. I would also link it to deer. Even our reds are not so big that a well placed shot could not drop them quickly and cleanly.

FISMA

Thanks. I could not see them being any better than the Gamekings or Partitions, both under $50. What I consider a fair price to pay for game day rounds.

Cass wrote: »

I've used them in: 170gr in 30-06

At what distance did you use the 30-06's? Were the results the same as mentioned? This is what I would be using in my 700. Were you using a 700? Do you remember the twist of the barrel?

Cass wrote: »

The only time i would consider overkill is when an absurdly large caliber is used on a small animal.

I would add in when terminal ballistics cause internal organ damage and waste. I have seen a few 30-06's make scrambled eggs of the entire heart/lung area. Even though I do not eat the lungs, it is nice to have them in tact to look for TB, pneumonia, or the like.

The Aussie

FISMA wrote: »

I would add in when terminal ballistics cause internal organ damage and waste. I have seen a few 30-06's make scrambled eggs of the entire heart/lung area. Even though I do not eat the lungs, it is nice to have them in tact to look for TB, pneumonia, or the like.

The 30-06 stopped Bulls Camels with a chest shot, a animal that get up to 1000kg, so they can be up around 5 times the weight of a Red Deer, and it softened up everything in the chest cavity of a animal of that size, I've always wondered what it would do to the meat.

Ziggieire

I use the 150g sst rounds for deer when using the .300 Win Mag, allways go for side on neck shots.
Sometimes it comes out the other side a lot of times it stays, there dead before they hit the dirt.
i did a test with a small melon and the bullet was sitting on the dirt behind where the melon was.

xchrisshana

iv used sst in my .308 loads of meat damage like a bomb went off inside the beast no question that it was dead on its feet but lots of meat wasted didnt like um at all .what is like with the .300 win when you open the beast up is there a load damage around the shoulder and ribs

Ziggieire

xchrisshana wrote: »

iv used sst in my .308 loads of meat damage like a bomb went off inside the beast no question that it was dead on its feet but lots of meat wasted didnt like um at all .what is like with the .300 win when you open the beast up is there a load damage around the shoulder and ribs

I allways shoot them about 12inches up there neck, leaves no dammage to anything i eat. most of the time the spine is just shattered only muscle holding it on. on a shot that does not hit the bone the shock still breaks the neck.
But i would never use an sst to the chest it would just make a massive mess

xchrisshana

The buddy will back me up on this when he see this post I always try and go for a neck and the sst will brake ribs and shoulders I was out 1 day shot a deer with sst neck shot on the right and the deer jump a good 4 foot in the air went over and the left leg and shoulder was broke from the impact of the sst I was at around 100 yards maybe crazy ammo

The Aussie

The thing about SST is they totally disintegrate and the shrapnel ends up god knows where, could explain the secondary trauma.
Was there any exit wounds?

xchrisshana

The Aussie wrote: »

The thing about SST is they totally disintegrate and the shrapnel ends up god knows where, could explain the secondary trauma.
Was there any exit wounds?

No exit wounds

The Aussie

xchrisshana wrote: »

No exit wounds

Don't know why but I've always liked an exit wound for a nice blood trail, but I'm fairly odd mind you.

What other rounds have you chucked out of it, thing about the .308 is that you will never be caught for choice.

One shot on kill

I was thinking about running the 95grain Sst out of my 243. To try them for a while. I am using 100 grain at the min and and I've a feeling they don't group the best at 200 yards.

sikahuntejack

Last year i shot all my deer with a sako 22.250 60g bullet neck shots all fell dead on the spot not much meat damage lovely to shoot , after listening to many on this fourm <snip>, putting down the 22.250 i changed to a 308 which i shot 3 prickets so far this year all neck shots meat damage bad, i find the 308 a over kill might go back to the 22.250 for next year

tomcat220t

sikahuntejack wrote: »

Last year i shot all my deer with a sako 22.250 60g bullet neck shots all fell dead on the spot not much meat damage lovely to shoot , after listening to many on this fourm <snip> putting down the 22.250 i changed to a 308 which i shot 3 prickets so far this year all neck shots meat damage bad, i find the 308 a over kill might go back to the 22.250 for next year

Hi sikahuntejack,every one has opinions and preferences on what caliber is best suited for deer shooting .
My first choice for stalking would never be a .22-250 ,sorry !
Too many better calibers that are just a cheap or even cheaper to feed than the .22-250 ,imo.
Meat damage would be low on my views when choosing a deer caliber .
Regards ,Tomcat.

sikahuntejack

I have shot lots of deer , last year with 22.250 this year 308 all neck shots all fell the same way dead is dead no difference in how they died,But big difference in the damage to the neck. Everyone wants bigger in this country if the Troubles ever starts back up in the north we will all be useing 22.250 for deer what will ye do then

tomcat220t

sikahuntejack wrote: »

I have shot lots of deer , last year with 22.250 this year 308 all neck shots all fell the same way dead is dead no difference in how they died,But big difference in the damage to the neck. Everyone wants bigger in this country if the Troubles ever starts back up in the north we will all be useing 22.250 for deer what will ye do then

Hi sikahuntejack,ive seen some of the best shots and clean kills with the .22-250 years ago .Times have moved on and other calibers are now available .
I feel the .22-250 is border line for deer ...need exact bullet placement at reasonably close range in reasonable weather conditions .
Also this 60gr law ...not many factory .22-250 will like this weight of round and your limited to that round aswell .
Its a varmint caliber doing a small/medium game caliber job .
Regards,Tomcat.

Cass

The law states the minimum for any deer legal rifle is:

• .22 centrefire caliber
• 55gr bullet
• 1,700 ft/lb at the muzzle.

If the rifle/ammo meets these requirements then it's legal. If not, it's not. The NPWS have no authority to force the use of one bullet over another if the smaller/lighter round is legal. So if a 55gr meets the legal requirements they cannot affect a law change by demanding the use of nothing less than 60gr.

That being said, and sticking with the theme of the thread about overkill, i'd like to ask about "underkill". For years the smaller calibers were used as there was a severe lack of larger calibers. now that they are freely available i fail to see people's insistence on recommending, using, and suggesting that smaller, barely legal, calibers be used for hunting.

We all talk about getting in line with other countries in terms of gun laws, etc. but what about the laws people don't want to know about. The swift is not permitted to be used in many countries for deer (even the USA afaik). Yet we allow it here. The 22-250 is no better imo. We should not recommend to anyone to go for these as a first time deer rifle. It's the same when people ask "can you shoot deer with a .223?". Even if it were legal why would you? What is the fascination with using the smallest possible caliber. While shot placement is vital larger calibers lessen the instances of wounded game running away. As said above (i think) i have seen foxes screaming away when shot with a swift. Saying a deer is a larger animal and is a cop out. A "tiny" bullet traveling at speed in excess of 3,800fps with approx. 30ft/lb over the legal limit of energy is not, in my opinion, adequate.

As for the excuse of "it's for deer and foxes". Well foxes deserve the same treatment as deer in terms of quick kills. Bullet selection would negate the need for a smaller caliber so a 243, 6.5 or .308 would do both jobs perfectly. Keep the .223's, Swifts, etc for vermin ONLY.


Anyway partial rant over over. Carry on.

rowa

The centrefires above .22 have been allowed here for a good many years now (how long anyone ?) and i'd say you'd see much more proper deer calibre (.243 +) rifles than .22/250's and swifts on dealers shelves. In my experience anyway. I don't know why anyone taking up deer stalking would would opt for a .22 centrefire over something heavier, unless they are worried about recoil.

The Aussie

sikahuntejack wrote: »

Everyone wants bigger in this country.

That's what I've noticed for a while, like a mini Arms Race, anyone got a .338 Lapua for Deer yet???


Do you think its because there was a cap on Calibers for so long, now it's a free for all...

tomcat220t

What is the exact terms to .22-250 as a deer caliber ?
The few guys i know said they were restricted to the use of 60gr ammo .
And that was regardless of the energy rating of 55gr ammo .
So im not sure have sub 60gr ammo been used on deer would be legal !
Maybe a .22-250 user could reply ?
Regards,Tomcat.

Cass

For 22-250 it must be 60gr as the 55gr does not (afaik) make the legal minimum. However the 60gr only makes the legal minimum by 30 or so ft/lb.

When i said about the 55gr being the legal minimum i meant overall. IOW in relation to any .22 centrefire. So a lot of people are being told 60gr in a swift is the legal minimum when it's not as the 55 gr can make the 1,700 ft/lb mark.

However that is only a legal issue. For deer i still believe 6mm should be the legal minimum. However it requires a law change or SI to amend the act to allow for this.

Vegeta

The Aussie wrote: »

The thing about SST is they totally disintegrate and the shrapnel ends up god knows where, could explain the secondary trauma.
Was there any exit wounds?

Originally I thought this was a soft point bullet but it was in fact a 185 grains SST at a red stag from ~120 yards.

The SST is not designed to fragment (like a Vmax) it is meant to be kind of a hybrid. Expand quickly but retain most of its weight, I think.

Cass

A-max in 308 are excellent. They fragment immediately and i've shot deer and foxes with no through and through, no meat damage, and instant kills. So as i said above large calibers can be used if the bullet choice is in line with the job being done.

Sikahuntjack talks of meat damage with a .308 yet i overcame this with the correct bullet selection. Not by picking the most popular, but the most appropriate to my needs and based on it's performance.

Ziggieire

Vegeta wrote: »

Originally I thought this was a soft point bullet but it was in fact a 185 grains SST at a red stag from ~120 yards.

The SST is not designed to fragment (like a Vmax) it is meant to be kind of a hybrid. Expand quickly but retain most of its weight, I think.

I have found similar results.
I found this youtube video showing a SST hitting a small melon and the bullet is sitting on the sand behind the target all the casing is intact some lead is missing

Cass

The same happens with soft point rounds. Mushroom but stay intact and act more like a musket shot. Through and through with all of them hence the reason i stay away from they.

Ziggieire

Cass wrote: »

The same happens with soft point rounds. Mushroom but stay intact and act more like a musket shot. Through and through with all of them hence the reason i stay away from they.

i was trying to get the amax in .300 but no luck, they have a great BC.

Cass

I was trying to organise a group buy through a dealer but the response for it was not great so let it go.

They can be got, but are not commonly stocked. I have a few boxes brought in and buy them as i can afford them. For .308 but they can be gotten for the .300 winmag. In 178 is a great round.

German pointer

Lads found this about different rounds for different parts of the body to shoot. Both worth a watch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TDMxDcGEGc


Or this graphic one for head shots


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJr7Ph5SGO4

rowa

The Aussie wrote: »

That's what I've noticed for a while, like a mini Arms Race, anyone got a .338 Lapua for Deer yet???


Do you think its because there was a cap on Calibers for so long, now it's a free for all...

I honestly don't think so aussie, the vast majority of lads i know shooting deer use appropriate rounds like the .243. 6.5 , 308 etc. Apart from anything else the price of quality ammo for the larger rounds like the 338 etc must be astronomic.

The Aussie

Vegeta wrote: »

Originally I thought this was a soft point bullet but it was in fact a 185 grains SST at a red stag from ~120 yards.

The SST is not designed to fragment (like a Vmax) it is meant to be kind of a hybrid. Expand quickly but retain most of its weight, I think.

I'm thinking your right that they do retain most of their weight, from this "live target" using 7mm sst on here, bottom of page.
www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/Wound+Database/7mm+-Hornady+162gr+SST+Remington+140gr+Core-Lokt.html
(I'm rely liking reading through this site at the minute)

"from the 210 yard shot and weighed 91.5 gr, the finishing shot projectile weighed 75.8gr."

Using my bodgy maths that works out at about 3/4 weight retention, so 1/4 of total mass goes walkabout.


Regarding the 22-250 (I'm surprised this picture has not been posted yet, so I will flinch first and stick it up :pac:)



While being a little outdated now that the swift is legal, it just goes to show the size of a 22-250 compared to other rounds (could be why the writing underneath says "Not Recommended"). It's almost comparable to a .223

sikahuntejack

Nobody knows how good the 22.250 is for deer until you own one and used it, for neck shots and head shots its a great bullet i used a sako heavy barrel 22.250 last year loved it .Not too long ago a couple of lads were shooting deer with a 223 rifle lamping them 7 nights a week which they took over 300 deer includeing massive hybrids, lucky for us the 223 was took off the lad for another reason 200 yards they were dropping hybrids head shots no problem to them

Cass

sikahuntejack wrote: »

............. 200 yards they were dropping hybrids head shots no problem to them

I know you are not condoning the use of an illegal caliber on deer but to say that because something can do the job that it should be allowed or even considered is ridiculous. It goes back to my argument about what "does the job" to what "barely does the job" and peoples insistence on going for the latter.

I'm sure a well placed shot from a .17hmr would do the job too, doesn't mean it should be legally a deer caliber.

sikahuntejack

Cass i think you should wrap this 1 up the 22.250 debate will just keep going on and on, Its a legal calibre until the day the powers that be make it ilegal

Cass

It's a discussion forum so the topic is fair game. It will never be resolved as you'll have advocates on both sides of the discussion, but it's an interesting topic that deserves to be talked about.

sikahuntejack wrote:

........ its a legal bullet and the shooter is doing no wrong in the eyes of the law ..

No one is claiming they are. You are right that it is legal, and they are entitled to continue using it.

You never hear anyone moaning about the lads out shooting useing cheap 28g cartridges for pheasants and ducks and clipping them and losing them condeming most to a slow death

Again no one is condoning that behaviour but it's legal. Duck, Pheasant, etc do not have a legal, minimum bullet/cartridge size unlike deer. However the fact that you argue the point about certain rounds, while legal, are inappropriate for certain game shows that you do feel the same, but only in some circumstances. I'll ask you this. Do you think there should be a minimum cartridge size for duck, pheasant, etc? If so why?

It's the same with myself, and possibly others, about the 22-250. The fact that some deer associations do not recommend it shows that there are better alternatives to it as a deer legal round.

the boys who are moaning about it been a deer round should SHUT UP AND PUT UP WITH IT,,

The problem being, and with most things, the law was written over 35 years ago when the calibers we have today were not legal or available. They need updating.

One shot on kill

I thought the tread was about over kill. Not debating sheathed a 22.250 is big enough to be even considered.

Have to say if its not illegal and you get clean kills then work away when your getting all runners and not finding carcass's then maybe think about changing. Don't fix it if its not broke as they say, but be responsible and sure that's all you can do.

Cass

All threads naturally diverge from the OP at some point.

sikahuntejack

35 years ago the 22.250 was deemed suitable for deer, Now 35 years later a 22.250 with a top of the range scope ,moderator, range finder, better bullets available than ever before makes it a great deer calibre. Deer have not changed much in those 35 years nor have they become immune to a 22.250 bullet, like i said before dead is dead no matter what way you look at it. Last year i used a 22.250 for deer and when i felt like it i would go and shoot a fews foxs at night with it now with the 22.250 gone and replaced with a 308 i feel its too powerfull to lamp foxs with so plan is to got back to a 22.250 for next year