Road deaths on the rise

SeanW

SeanW wrote: »

However, to assume that it is not possible for a speed limit to be exceeded because it is inappropriately low to the prevailing conditions, requires a level of ignorance, arrogance and intellectual blindness that is absolutely astounding. Would you not agree?

Iwannahurl wrote:

**Deafening silence**

Informative ... not in the way you intended though, I am sure.

mydiscworld

http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=10816&Lang=1

Unfortunately, 2014 is now worse than 2013

Total Killed to 07/07/13 92
Total Killed to 07/07/14 95

Total Collisions to 07/07/13 86
Total Collisions to 07/07/14 88

mydiscworld

http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=10816&Lang=1

2014 continues to be worse than 2013

Total Killed to 22/08/13 128
Total Killed to 22/08/13 120

Total Collisions to 22/08/13 118
Total Collisions to 22/08/13 112

SpaceTime

I actually think it's more psychological than about road surfaces or maintenance issues (although they may be a slight factor).

When people get the impression that the penalty points aren't being seriously applied, then they start to relax a bit too much about their driving.

I think when new measures came in the road death rate fell because people reacted to them by changing behaviour. When they realised they weren't "really" being enforced to the level they thought, behaviour just reverted to normal.

I saw this with the mobile phone while driving ban. When it came in, nobody was using their phones and now I'm seeing people texting on the M8!?

Traffic law here is largely about pretending that you're having a big enforcement drive but then not backing it up with any real resources. There was also a dramatic cut in Garda resources over that same period.

Iwannahurl

SpaceTime wrote: »

Traffic law here is largely about pretending that you're having a big enforcement drive but then not backing it up with any real resources. There was also a dramatic cut in Garda resources over that same period.

Slight correction: traffic law enforcement here is largely about pretending...

I still think AGS and other statutory authorities are hiding behind the reduced resources issue. How are existing resources being managed?

For example, in the Emergency Services forum a couple of months ago it was pointed out that Traffic Corps reports "go to the station where the report covers". In other words, there's a supposedly dedicated TC which apparently does not actually handle the incidents it detects, the reports going into the general mix and potentially losing priority. As I asked at the time, could such a system be regarded as joined-up management and an efficient use of (reportedly) scarce resources?

The "cut in Garda resources" excuse also does not explain why AGS (Traffic Corps included) do not enforce the law when they are present while road traffic offences are being committed.

I frequently encounter pairs of Gardai chatting as they stroll nonchalantly past dangerously parked vehicles, for example, entirely oblivious to the risks for pedestrians (18% of fatalities so far this year are lowly foot-sloggers). I have seen Traffic Corps vehicles travelling way above the speed limit on urban 50 km/h roads where they were supposed to be present in order to deter speeding. I recall attending a "road safety" promotion a couple of years ago where road traffic law enforcement was non-existent before, during and after the event itself, but where the Traffic Corps were able to commit several shiny vehicles to a static display over several hours for PR purposes. Only recently I watched while a Traffic Corps Garda obstructed a pedestrian island with his motorbike, and then spent the next 15 minutes chatting to a friend while traffic was in chaos all around him and pedestrians, including children, were trying to cross the road unaided through heavy traffic that would not stop for them.

BaronVon

SpaceTime wrote: »

Traffic law here is largely about pretending that you're having a big enforcement drive but then not backing it up with any real resources. There was also a dramatic cut in Garda resources over that same period.

Indeed, apparently road traffic law is only enforced on bank holiday weekends and the occasional Friday!!!

Iwannahurl

And via public announcements and press releases...

mydiscworld

Number of children killed on Irish roads in 2014 already twice that of 2013

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/number-of-children-killed-on-irish-roads-in-2014-already-twice-that-of-2013-30541375.html

Iwannahurl

More hi-viz, that's the answer.

How could I forget...

KevR

Saw a man and a woman dragging their 3 kids across 4 lanes of traffic on the N6 Quincentenary Bridge in Galway the other day. Busy time of day and all. I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

It's not like there are 2 underpasses and 2 sets of lights, one at each end (4 different opportunities in total to cross safely). Oh wait.......there is!

Shocking. Illogical. Inexcusable.

AugustusMinimus

mydiscworld wrote: »

Number of children killed on Irish roads in 2014 already twice that of 2013

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/number-of-children-killed-on-irish-roads-in-2014-already-twice-that-of-2013-30541375.html

I heard about this initiative on the radio. Stating that parents should do more to ensure their kids are educated in road safety etc.

Sounds like victim blaming to me :rolleyes:

kippy

A few things are happening I would guess.
1. We've had a busier and better summer than in the past few years (from some of the reports I have read). More tourists have come here and more people are holidaying at home = more cars on the road.
2. Employment is allegedly increasing. People are using cars more as a result or buying cars to get to work = more cars on the road.
3. Lack of investment in further motorway implementation and road improvements in general. Already mentioned here but the motorways have been one of the biggest reasons for increased safety on the roads, none built in a while and seemingly stuttering implemention of M18/17 as well as others.

Mostly, more cars on the roads.

Iwannahurl

kippy wrote: »

Mostly, more cars on the roads.

The evidence is that a 10% reduction in traffic volume could reduce fatalities by 6.5%. By way of contrast, the same level of decrease in average speed would have a fatality reduction effect nearly four times greater.

If fatalities are increasing now as a result of (easy-credit-fuelled) new car sales, then why did we experience the opposite during the Celtic Bubble years?

Between 2001 and 2011 Ireland's population increased by 19%, motor vehicle registrations increased by 37%, and the number of full/provisional driving licence holders increased by 31%. In the same period the number of fatalities decreased by 55%. Source: http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Crash%20Stats/2011_Road_Collision_Fact_Book.pdf

The construction of safer road types during the boom (motorways being a prime example) is presumably a factor. But has the road environment changed so much over the last few years that it has led to an increase in fatalities? What evidence is there to support that theory?

kippy

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The evidence is that a 10% reduction in traffic volume could reduce fatalities by 10%. By way of contrast, the same level of decrease in average speed would have a fatality reduction effect nearly four times greater.

If fatalities are increasing now as a result of (easy-credit-fuelled) new car sales, then why did we experience the opposite during the Celtic Bubble years?

Between 2001 and 2011 Ireland's population increased by 19%, motor vehicle registrations increased by 37%, and the number of full/provisional driving licence holders increased by 31%. In the same period the number of fatalities decreased by 55%. Source: http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Crash%20Stats/2011_Road_Collision_Fact_Book.pdf

The construction of safer road types during the boom (motorways being a prime example) is presumably a factor. But has the road environment changed so much over the last few years that it has led to an increase in fatalities? What evidence is there to support that theory?

Fair enough.
More cars does not equal more accidents based on those stats.
What about less enforcement?

Iwannahurl

Correction: the evidence is that a 10% reduction in traffic volume could reduce fatalities by 6.5%.

I think reduced enforcement (including inefficient use of existing resources) is a factor. But how to confirm that?

Perhaps also there is an element of complacency. We were doing well for a long time, and then took our collective eye off the ball?

I would put a lot of the previous reduction in road deaths despite an increase in traffic , simply down to the fact that much of this extra traffic is on newer safer roads. Plus the fact that before 2000 there were a lot of old wrecks on the roads that were removed after the scrappage scheme.
It should also be noted that 2011 was the "bottom" of the depression.

AugustusMinimus

IMO, the rise in deaths over the past 2 years is statistically uninteresting and is most likely not actually down to any factor.

It will take maybe another 2 or 3 years of data to see if this is an actual trend or simply a statistical variance.

Hidden Cyclone

Can volumes be tracked accurately? I can think of a few proxies (e.g. litres of fuel sold, tolls collected) but can it be tracked and is any attempt made to?

Victor

Hidden Cyclone wrote: »

Can volumes be tracked accurately? I can think of a few proxies (e.g. litres of fuel sold, tolls collected) but can it be tracked and is any attempt made to?

There are roadside traffic counters and aggregated data from the NCT. Using litres of fuel sold suffers from fuel exports (fuel is cheaper in Ireland than the UK) and variable mileage between vehicles and driving styles.

L1011

Hidden Cyclone wrote: »

Can volumes be tracked accurately? I can think of a few proxies (e.g. litres of fuel sold, tolls collected) but can it be tracked and is any attempt made to?

Forgot to reply when I saw this initially (on a phone and couldn't paste a link). As Victor has since mentioned:

The NRA has a large network of traffic counters. They are't 100% accurate but they're more than accurate enough.

http://www.nra.ie/network-monitoring-and-management/traffic-data/

Also gives an [estimated, from axle count detection and other factors] breakdown between cars and HGVs; a road with a higher % of HGV traffic can be a factor in more pedestrian and cyclist deaths/injuries.

Victor

antoobrien wrote: »

road_high wrote: »

One of the main drivers of the drop in road deaths has been the bypassing of old N roads like the N8 and N9 which were lethal for head on collisions and junction crashes at high speed.

Indeed, just looking collision map for 2005 - 2011 there were 17 fatal collisions along the old 2 lane N6 (now R446) route. There were 3 on the corresponding dc/motorway.

The table below is a collation of the years and sections of road where the accidents occurred, along with the approximate opening date of the relevant section of 4 lane Rd.

Section | 2 Lane | 4 Lane | 4 Lane Open
KK-TYP | 2005 | | Dec 06
KK-TYP | 2005 | | Dec 06
TYP-KB | 2006 | | May 07
TYP-KB | 2005 | | May 07
TYP-KB | | 2007 | May 07
TYP-KB | 2008 | | May 07
KB-A | 2007 | | Jul 08
KB-A | 2007 | | Jul 08
KB-A | | 2011 | Jul 08
KB-A | 2006 | | Jul 08
A-B | | 2010 | Jul 09
A-B | 2011 | | Jul 09
A-B | 2010 | | Jul 09
B-G | 2008 | | Dec 09
B-G | 2008 | | Dec 09
B-G | 2008 | | Dec 09
B-G | 2008 | | Dec 09
B-G | 2006 | | Dec 09
B-G | 2005 | | Dec 09
B-G | 2005 | | Dec 09
| 17 | 3 |

Apologies for dragging up an old post, but how many casualties where there on the combined N6 / M6 / R446 corridor?

antoobrien

Victor wrote: »

Apologies for dragging up an old post, but how many casualties where there on the combined N6 / M6 / R446 corridor?

I just counted the number of accidents, but it is higher than the figure in the table (I remember at least one of the accidents from 2005 being a 2/3 person crash).

Victor

Sorry. What I mean is that if you are comparing the before and after, you need to include 'local' casualties on the R446 in the after total.

antoobrien

Victor wrote: »

Sorry. What I mean is that if you are comparing the before and after, you need to include 'local' casualties on the R446 in the after total.

Not sure what you mean by "local" casualties, but I've counted all accidents that have been marked as occurring on the former N6. At the time of that post, the figures were for 2005-2011, the map has since been updated for 2012 - there were 20 counted before, 23 now.

In some cases there have been no recorded accidents after the road opened, in one case several.

Summary:
Road | Collisions | Fatalities | Serious | Minor
N6 | 17 | 22 | 8 | 19
R446 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0
M6 |3 | 4 | 0 |0



Detailed:
Section | Road | Year | Type | Fatal | Serious | Minor | M/Way Open
KK-TYP | N6 | 2005 | Right Turn | 1 | 0 | 1 | Dec 06
KK-TYP | N6 | 2005 | Head on | 1 | 0 | 0 | Dec 06
TYP-KB | N6 | 2006 | Head on | 1 | 0 | 0 | May 07
TYP-KB | N6 | 2005 | Pedestrian | 1 | 0 | 0 | May 07
TYP-KB | M6 | 2007 | Single Vehicle | 1 | 0 | 0 | May 07
TYP-KB | N6 | 2005 | Pedestrian | 1 | 0 | 0 | May 07
TYP-KB | N6 | 2008 | Motorcyle | 1 | 0 | 1 | Jul 08
KB-A | N6 | 2007 | Pedestrian | 1 | 0 | 0 | Jul 08
KB-A | N6 | 2006 | Head on | 1 | 2 | 0 | Jul 08
KB-A | M6 | 2011 | Head on | 2 | 0 | 0 | Jul 08
KB-A | N6 | 2006 | Head on | 2 | 0 | 1 | Jul 09
A-B | R446 | 2011 | Rear End | 1 | 0 | 0 | Jul 09
A-B | M6 | 2010 | Pedestrian | 1 | 0 | 0 | Jul 09
A-B | N6 | 2008 | Head on | 2 | 1 | 4 | Jul 09
A-B | R446 | 2011 | Pedestrian | 1 | 0 | 0 | Dec 09
A-B | R446 | 2010 | Pedestrian | 1 | 0 | 0 | Dec 09
B-G | N6 | 2008 | Pedestrian | 1 | 0 | 0 | Dec 09
B-G | N6 | 2009 | Head on | 1 | 0 | 8 | Dec 09
B-G | N6 | 2009 | Head on | 2 | 0 | 3 | Dec 09
B-G | N6 | 2008 | Single Vehicle | 2 | 3 | 0 | Dec 09
B-G | N6 | 2006 | Head on | 1 | 2 | 0 | Dec 09
B-G | N6 | 2005 | Head on | 2 | 0 | 0 | Dec 09
B-G | N6 | 2005 | Head on | 1 | 0 | 1 | Dec 09

Victor

antoobrien wrote: »

Not sure what you mean by "local" casualties

Casualties on local journeys, where the road user would be unlikely to use the motorway.

antoobrien

Victor wrote: »

Casualties on local journeys, where the road user would be unlikely to use the motorway.

Don't see your problem/objection, the R446 figures are there (such as they are).

Iwannahurl

Iwannahurl wrote: »

If fatalities are increasing now as a result of (easy-credit-fuelled) new car sales, then why did we experience the opposite during the Celtic Bubble years?

Between 2001 and 2011 Ireland's population increased by 19%, motor vehicle registrations increased by 37%, and the number of full/provisional driving licence holders increased by 31%. In the same period the number of fatalities decreased by 55%. Source: http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Crash%20Stats/2011_Road_Collision_Fact_Book.pdf

Looks like AGS are buying into the theory that an improving economy means more road deaths:

The economy emerging from recession is a major reason for the increase in road deaths as there is more traffic on the roads, according to Chief Supt Reid.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/garda%C3%AD-identify-dublin-s-top-10-speeding-blackspots-1.1951025

Victor

Iwannahurl wrote: »

If fatalities are increasing now as a result of (easy-credit-fuelled) new car sales, then why did we experience the opposite during the Celtic Bubble years?

It might not be car sales, but fuel affordability. While fuel prices dropped in 2008, they rose again very quickly, even though demand dropped (certainly in Ireland, probably in most of Europe).

If someone is concerned about their fuel costs, they are going to drive more slowly and conservatively.

Iwannahurl

So if we were to test that hypothesis, would the RSA's annual surveys of free speed be of any use?

SpaceTime

I think we need to concentrate on a few areas:

Aggressive and dangerous driving across the board. Things like dangerous blind overtaking on single carriageways, tailgating etc

Speed but focusing on dangerous parts of single carriageways.

Bikes and pedestrians : they need to start actually fining people who have no lights on bikes, break traffic lights etc and also pedestrians walking on roads without reflective gear at night.

The other issue is that the traffic corps needs to be more visible. You hardly ever see them outside of key locations.