So I think I just caught a dealer clock a car I'm interested in

dantastic · 25-09-2013 7:21am #1

Have had my eyes on a model of car for a while now. Was planning to test drive this very car over the weekend.
I's been with the dealer for quite some time, this wouldn't worry me as it's not a popular car.

But Googling around I was able to find earlier listings of the car (still with the same dealer) but with 30k miles more on it. Now usually, unless there's funny business going on mileage goes up over time, not down.

So I was able to locate their master stock list and also an older version on google cache. All of a sudden last week they dropped 30k miles and also €1k

Seeing the value of 60k on the odometer in the ad and comparing that to the wear of the interior I was pretty suspicions anyway.

So my first thought was to name and shame and all of that but I'm still interested in the car. I'm just thinking I have a bit more bargaining power knowing the above. This is a larger engine car on the old system and it's been with the dealer for quite come time. motorckeck check tells us it's been with the dealer for over 3 months anyway...

I will have the car independently checked before handing over any money anyway but I'm just thinking about the above information how I can use it to my advantage.

sidcon · 25-09-2013 7:25am

dantastic wrote: »

how I can use it to my advantage.

By walking away from it

aisr1ofk43dpy5 · 25-09-2013 7:34am

sidcon wrote: »

By walking away from it

Have you actually been in the car and seen the mileage. Is it possible there was a typing error in the add.

aisr1ofk43dpy5 · 25-09-2013 7:35am

Sorry i quoted the wrong post there im on the phone.

fl4pj4ck · 25-09-2013 7:44am

if they're with SIMI you could surely report it to them
dunno if gards will react to something like this, they should imho

Anan1 · 25-09-2013 7:45am

dantastic wrote: »

So my first thought was to name and shame and all of that but I'm still interested in the car. I'm just thinking I have a bit more bargaining power knowing the above.

Ask yourself what exactly do you know?

fl4pj4ck · 25-09-2013 7:46am

Anan1 wrote: »

Ask yourself what exactly do you know?

that they had the same car with 30k more on it earlier and now they have a car with 30k less

nelly17 · 25-09-2013 7:47am

Is it not an offence to clock a car?

djimi · 25-09-2013 7:53am

nelly17 wrote: »

Is it not an offence to clock a car?

No, the offence is selling a car that you know to be clocked and not divulging that information to the buyer (ie fraud).

Anan1 · 25-09-2013 7:53am

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

that they had the same car with 30k more on it earlier and now they have a car with 30k less

No. The actual mileage on the car hasn't changed, and we don't know whether the indicated mileage has either. All we know is that the mileage in the ad has changed.

S28382 · 25-09-2013 7:54am

Is holding a dealer ransom because you think he clocked a car not the motoring form of blackmail. What is going to happen is he going to be ratted out because he won't give you the car for less money?

I think it's wrong people can get away with clocking cars but trying to get it cheaper because it's clocked is not a good way to go either as will it still not come up in checks as having a history of being clocked. Maybe the best way is to just walk away and report him if you see fit.

djimi · 25-09-2013 7:55am

OP if you buy this car (assuming it is actually clocked) do you plan on telling the person that you sell it on to that it has been clocked?

fl4pj4ck · 25-09-2013 8:01am

Anan1 wrote: »

No. The actual mileage on the car hasn't changed, and we don't know whether the indicated mileage has either. All we know is that the mileage in the ad has changed.

that's what you suspect

Anan1 · 25-09-2013 8:05am

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

that's what you suspect

If we're to believe the OP then those are the facts.

fl4pj4ck · 25-09-2013 8:08am

According to OP:

But Googling around I was able to find earlier listings of the car (still with the same dealer) but with 30k miles more on it

so I suspect the car has been clocked. I can easily report it and not to worry too much whether it's true or not. if the car hasn't been clocked then no harm done, otherwise I would expect the dealer will be somehow penalised

ekevosu · 25-09-2013 8:08am

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

that's what you suspect

No, those are the facts. Until the OP confirms he's seen the new mileage, that's what the OP suspects.

And honestly OP, blackmail. Really.

Anan1 · 25-09-2013 8:11am

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

so I suspect the car has been clocked. I can easily report it and not to worry too much whether it's true or not. if the car hasn't been clocked then no harm done, otherwise I would expect the dealer will be somehow penalised

FFS, think about what you're saying. An accusation of fraud is not something to be made lightly.

Kenny Logins · 25-09-2013 8:11am

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

that's what you suspect

No, those are the facts...

fl4pj4ck · 25-09-2013 8:17am

the facts are:
a car is made available by dealer with 90k mileage
OP found previous ad with the same car with 30k less

now based on that OP suspects the car has been clocked, so he could notify SIMI if the dealer is associated with them. unless OP wants to take an advantage of this and blackmail the dealer I don't see how letting SIMI notified is wrong, enlighten me

dantastic · 25-09-2013 8:17am

Right so calm down every one ffs!

I have yet to see the car in person so I cannot confirm what it says on the odometer right now.
What I know is the car has been with the dealer for some time and this is the second major price drop. I also know that with this price drop the listings were updated with a new mileage.

The overall condition of the car would strongly suggest the higher mileage to me.

Report, ya, hahaha. Can't see that help either myself or anyone else for that matter.

Blackmail, strong choice of words. I'd like to call it bargaining power. If they are trying to sell me something with 60k and I can tell them, buddy, it's actually 90k. Can't see how that is blackmail.

fl4pj4ck · 25-09-2013 8:19am

Report, ya, hahaha. Can't see that help either myself or anyone else for that matter.

as long as people wont change their attitude dealers will keep doing that

fl4pj4ck · 25-09-2013 8:20am

dantastic wrote: »

Right so calm down every one ffs!
Blackmail, strong choice of words. I'd like to call it bargaining power. If they are trying to sell me something with 60k and I can tell them, buddy, it's actually 90k. Can't see how that is blackmail.

you can call it whatever you want:

black·mail noun \ˈblak-ˌmāl\
: the crime of threatening to tell secret information about someone unless the person being threatened gives you money or does what you want

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/blackmail

Anan1 · 25-09-2013 8:20am

dantastic wrote: »

Blackmail, strong choice of words. I'd like to call it bargaining power. If they are trying to sell me something with 60k and I can tell them, buddy, it's actually 90k. Can't see how that is blackmail.

On a practical note, how could you demonstrate that the mileage was actually 90k?

S28382 · 25-09-2013 8:20am

dantastic wrote: »

Right so calm down every one ffs!

I have yet to see the car in person so I cannot confirm what it says on the odometer right now.
What I know is the car has been with the dealer for some time and this is the second major price drop. I also know that with this price drop the listings were updated with a new mileage.

The overall condition of the car would strongly suggest the higher mileage to me.

Report, ya, hahaha. Can't see that help either myself or anyone else for that matter.

Blackmail, strong choice of words. I'd like to call it bargaining power. If they are trying to sell me something with 60k and I can tell them, buddy, it's actually 90k. Can't see how that is blackmail.

But do you really want to buy a clocked car the hassle of selling on a clocked car is not worth it and as asked before are you going to tell any potential new owner that the car was clocked?

mathepac · 25-09-2013 8:20am

Anan1 wrote: »

FFS, think about what you're saying. An accusation of fraud is not something to be made lightly.

Calm down dear and mind your language, there might be children listening.

The poster is making no accusations, merely reporting his suspicions to the appropriate authority for investigation. It's the duty of every citizen.

Simplez.

dantastic · 25-09-2013 8:23am

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

as long as people wont change their attitude dealers will keep doing that

I completely agree, completely. I just lack even the slightest trust in the system.

I'm just trying to buy a car and it's proving immensely difficult to find one that isn't a bit dodgy in one way or another. I have ruled out so many cars already that I cannot walk away from something otherwise good if it's just the mileage that's been altered.

Anan1 · 25-09-2013 8:24am

mathepac wrote: »

Calm down dear and mind your language, there might be children listening.

The poster is making no accusations, merely reporting his suspicions to the appropriate authority for investigation. It's the duty of every citizen. Simplez.

The poster is suggesting reporting a discrepancy in the mileage in an ad to the SIMI. I mean seriously, where to start?

Anan1 · 25-09-2013 8:26am

dantastic wrote: »

I'm just trying to buy a car and it's proving immensely difficult to find one that isn't a bit dodgy in one way or another. I have ruled out so many cars already that I cannot walk away from something otherwise good if it's just the mileage that's been altered.

If you don't trust the dealer then don't buy there - I would have thought that this went without saying. From reading through your previous posts on your search, I think you'd find buying privately from a decent seller a safer and less stressful experience.

dantastic · 25-09-2013 8:28am

In terms of proof and proving who did what it's obviously impossible so there's very little point.

I have heard though that even if you alter the mileage on the odometer the on board computer still has the real mileage somewhere down deep. You might need something fancier than your average ebay obd2 reader though to get at it.

If I could I'd prefer to have the correct mileage restored.

S28382 · 25-09-2013 8:28am

mathepac wrote: »

Calm down dear and mind your language, there might be children listening.

The poster is making no accusations, merely reporting his suspicions to the appropriate authority for investigation. It's the duty of every citizen. Simplez.

The OP is giving off the impression that he wont be reporting it any authorities. Im pretty sure in some way he is right not to as why would it be worth his time for something that prob wont be looked into deep enough for the dealer to be punished if needs be.

dantastic · 25-09-2013 8:31am

Anan1 wrote: »

If you don't trust the dealer then don't buy there - I would have thought that this went without saying. From reading through your previous posts on your search, I think you'd find buying privately from a decent seller a safer and less stressful experience.

Yup. And I've walked away from several privately advertised cars there now advertised as something they have owned and cherished for years and years only to find it's been trading hands twice in the last 3 months.

I don't trust anyone, I think that's a healthy start.

Peanut2011 · 25-09-2013 8:33am

S28382 wrote: »

The OP is giving off the impression that he wont be reporting it any authorities. Im pretty sure in some way he is right not to as why would it be worth his time for something that prob wont be looked into deep enough for the dealer to be punished if needs be.

Just to be clear on this, clocking a car is not illegal, selling it under falls pretences is.

As long as you ask the dealer if the car is clocked or not and if you have a proof it has been and they do not confirm it then you have a case against them.

Not before that.

S28382 · 25-09-2013 8:34am

Peanut2011 wrote: »

Just to be clear on this, clocking a car is not illegal, selling it under falls pretences is.

As long as you ask the dealer if the car is clocked or not and if you have a proof it has been and they do not confirm it then you have a case against them.

Not before that.

I know its not illegal i never said it was.

mathepac · 25-09-2013 8:37am

S28382 wrote: »

The OP ...

My post doesn't reference anything OP posted ...

S28382 · 25-09-2013 8:41am

mathepac wrote: »

My post doesn't reference anything OP posted ...

Sorry ill amend it for you......... The P..........

Anan1 · 25-09-2013 8:41am

dantastic wrote: »

Yup. And I've walked away from several privately advertised cars there now advertised as something they have owned and cherished for years and years only to find it's been trading hands twice in the last 3 months.

You will need to sort through a lot of chaff, but there are some questions you can ask that will help you to save wasted trips. Things like: Is this your own car? How long have you owned it? Is it registered in your own name? Can you talk me through the service history? This will help to filter a lot of sellers out on the phone.

aisr1ofk43dpy5 · 25-09-2013 8:47am

I think the OP should have waited till he's seen the mileage on the car for himself and asked the dealer why it was advertised earlier with less mileage before starting a thread with the title this one has.

dantastic · 25-09-2013 8:55am

Ahmad Nervous Temperance wrote: »

I think the OP should have waited till he's seen the mileage on the car for himself and asked the dealer why it was advertised earlier with less mileage before starting a thread with the title this one has.

This is boards, you can't ask for a pancake recipe here without the thread turning in to a train wreck.

There is a lot of junk about and there are a lot of people quite capable of talking the talk as well so it really is down to you to ensure you get what you think you get.

I'm still going to go look at this one. I'm not turned off by the mileage. I do recon altering the mileage is a bit of an act of desperation and I'm thinking how to best cash in on that.

fl4pj4ck · 25-09-2013 8:57am

and what makes you think (if of course the accusations are true) the dealer didnt clock it down by let's say 200k?
wouldnt that put you off if you knew?

Eric Cartman · 25-09-2013 8:57am

S28382 wrote: »

But do you really want to buy a clocked car the hassle of selling on a clocked car is not worth it and as asked before are you going to tell any potential new owner that the car was clocked?

if the OP would be happy to buy it and its good value for a car with 90k on it then Id say go ahead, the OP could have it clocked back to 90k and have a very cheap motor.

However OP If you do take the car I would have a mechanic inspect it and service it straight away, the odds of that dealer having looked after it are quite bad.

Anan1 · 25-09-2013 8:58am

dantastic wrote: »

I'm still going to go look at this one. I'm not turned off by the mileage. I do recon altering the mileage is a bit of an act of desperation and I'm thinking how to best cash in on that.

Honestly, don't. Best case scenario is you waste your time, worst is you get shafted. With the best will in the world, these people have a lot more knowledge and experience than you.

Yawns · 25-09-2013 9:01am

I wonder was one ad stating the mileage in km, whilst the different ad in miles.

aisr1ofk43dpy5 · 25-09-2013 9:01am

dantastic wrote: »

This is boards, you can't ask for a pancake recipe here without the thread turning in to a train wreck.

There is a lot of junk about and there are a lot of people quite capable of talking the talk as well so it really is down to you to ensure you get what you think you get.

I'm still going to go look at this one. I'm not turned off by the mileage. I do recon altering the mileage is a bit of an act of desperation and I'm thinking how to best cash in on that.

But you don't even know the mileage has been altered. From what I understand you've seen an earlier add where the car is down as having more mileage but there could be an innocent explanation for that.

dantastic · 25-09-2013 9:07am

Ahmad Nervous Temperance wrote: »

But you don't even know the mileage has been altered. From what I understand you've seen an earlier add where the car is down as having more mileage but there could be an innocent explanation for that.

I'm saying it got an A+ on the duck test.

dantastic · 25-09-2013 9:08am

Yawns wrote: »

I wonder was one ad stating the mileage in km, whilst the different ad in miles.

Stating both miles and kms. They both dropped and equivalent of 30k.

EazyD · 25-09-2013 9:24am

Straight out ask about the discrepancy, you'll know fairly quick from their response whether its a genuine mistake or not.

Anan1 · 25-09-2013 9:35am

dantastic wrote: »

I'm saying it got an A+ on the duck test.

I don't think you have the experience to assess that.

visual · 25-09-2013 9:36am

Peanut2011 wrote: »

Just to be clear on this, clocking a car is not illegal, selling it under falls pretences is.

As long as you ask the dealer if the car is clocked or not and if you have a proof it has been and they do not confirm it then you have a case against them.

Not before that.

It is not illegal for anyone to modify their mileage but it is totally illegal NOT to declare this when been sold. Saying nothing or misrepresenting the mileage is fraud.

The new buyer doesn't have to ask is mileage genuine if its not declared it is implied.

Just as the registration numbers is implied to be correct for that car.

Hope that cheers up all the clockers out there

aisr1ofk43dpy5 · 25-09-2013 11:01am

dantastic wrote: »

I'm saying it got an A+ on the duck test.

Still don't think you have enough information to say the car is clocked. When I saw the thread title I was expecting to hear you walked in on him doing it.

Cleveland Hot Pocket · 25-09-2013 11:19am

fl4pj4ck wrote: »

if they're with SIMI you could surely report it to them
dunno if gards will react to something like this, they should imho

Garage owner's union set up to promote garages self interest, not the general public's?

What would they do?

Cee-Jay-Cee · 25-09-2013 11:26am

I think your wasting your time as he can simply say it was a mistake and that someone else mixed up the mileage with that of another car. Unless he specifically told you the mileage was xxx on a specific date and now is advertising it with lower mileage then your not going to get very far.

If the car has an older style mechanical odometer which will generally shows signs if having been interfered with (ie the numbers are out of line especially the first digit) then you will have a job proving otherwise.

Go and look at the car, inspect the wear/tear on seats carpets pedals etc and the odometer (if mechanical type) and judge yourself and if you are still interested then bring up the discrepancy in the mileage in the two ads and see if he has a plausible excuse.

So I think I just caught a dealer clock a car I'm interested in

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