App Idea

percy212

The Corinthian wrote: »

Straight from the Irish business cowboy playbook :rolleyes:

Do I really need to explain this? Obviously you have to spend money on visiting potential customers, and market research. My advice is DO NOT SPEND YOUR OWN MONEY ON PROGRAMMERS unless a client is paying you first.

TommiesTank

OP, I'll develop this for you. I have settled for 80% equity. I'll get my solicitor to forward the contract ASAP. Looking forward to making tonnes of cash.

The Corinthian

percy212 wrote: »

Do I really need to explain this? Obviously you have to spend money on visiting potential customers, and market research. My advice is DO NOT SPEND YOUR OWN MONEY ON PROGRAMMERS unless a client is paying you first.

Again that's a ridiculous piece of advice.

Many serious software developments involve not only varied technologies and thus skill-sets, but can take months, if not years, to bring to stable release, let alone sale, integration and payment. It's not simply a case knocking up something quick, flogging it and hoping for the best - that's the way of the cowboy.

If you're not going to pay out of your own pocket, then you're either going to have to find someone else to pay for you (which isn't easy if you're essentially selling them vapourware) or expect the programmers to go without pay, for that extended period.

Presuming they have money to tide them over long enough for the first cheque to clear, why are they going to forgo a salary for, say, a year - because that's what we're talking about; anything between €40k and €80k easily, in opportunity cost.

Because they really believe in the concept? Sure, then if so, they'll not be looking for 5%, or even 20%, but 50% or more. So one way or another you're paying them.

At the end of the day, if you believe in your idea, putting your hand in your pocket is a good way of proving that you do. If you're not because you're hedging your bets (which is what it comes down to), then that transparent lack of confidence isn't going to go unnoticed of those you expect to invest what translates to a pretty hefty financial figure.

TommiesTank wrote: »

OP, I'll develop this for you. I have settled for 80% equity. I'll get my solicitor to forward the contract ASAP. Looking forward to making tonnes of cash.

Only 80%? You're being rather generous...

TommiesTank

The Corinthian wrote: »

Again that's a ridiculous piece of advice.

Many serious software developments involve not only varied technologies and thus skill-sets, but can take months, if not years, to bring to stable release, let alone sale, integration and payment. It's not simply a case knocking up something quick, flogging it and hoping for the best - that's the way of the cowboy.

If you're not going to pay out of your own pocket, then you're either going to have to find someone else to pay for you (which isn't easy if you're essentially selling them vapourware) or expect the programmers to go without pay, for that extended period.

Presuming they have money to tide them over long enough for the first cheque to clear, why are they going to forgo a salary for, say, a year - because that's what we're talking about; anything between €40k and €80k easily, in opportunity cost.

Because they really believe in the concept? Sure, then if so, they'll not be looking for 5%, or even 20%, but 50% or more. So one way or another you're paying them.

At the end of the day, if you believe in your idea, putting your hand in your pocket is a good way of proving that you do. If you're not because you're hedging your bets (which is what it comes down to), then that transparent lack of confidence isn't going to go unnoticed of those you expect to invest what translates to a pretty hefty financial figure.

Only 80%? You're being rather generous...

I was feeling generous and I want to keep the OP motivated. 80% of a billion is still a fair return for me.

Dad11

Thanks for advice everyone. I will be carrying out some market research over the next few weeks. Once I have some solid information ill take the next step! I had an idea that I would ne met with a lot of people trying to put me off and painting a somewhat negative picture. Maybe Ireland is not the right place to have it developed if it does make sense to build it.

TommiesTank wrote: »

I was feeling generous and I want to keep the OP motivated. 80% of a billion is still a fair return for me.

Graham

I think you'll find most of the negative sentiment isn't towards you, or your idea. It's the expectation/hope that you'll find a developer (worth having) that's prepared to finance your App by working for free. I doubt it's going to be any easier to find an off-shore developer that's prepared to work for free.

Dad11

I don't have that expectation at all. Never have and never will. I think that expectation lies with the people answering the posts here. This boards post if part of my market research. I wanted to throw out the idea of meeting for a chat. What have I learnt is there is no chance of that until I have done my market research, built specification and business plan. You better believe me I will be putting my own money into this however that won't be enough I will have to seek further investment also. I am realistic I don't expect to achieve what I want to achieve on my own. I have a vision of what I want to create. I just need to surround myself with the right team to make it a successful reality.

Graham wrote: »

I think you'll find most of the negative sentiment isn't towards you, or your idea. It's the expectation/hope that you'll find a developer (worth having) that's prepared to finance your App by working for free. I doubt it's going to be any easier to find an off-shore developer that's prepared to work for free.

Graham

I'm not sure where you're located but it wouldn't do you any harm to seek out a couple of the mobile dev/tech-start type meet ups, there's a few held in Dublin quite regularly.

If nothing else it may begin to familiarise you with the industry you're planning on entering and the terminology you'll be hearing a lot more of.

The other thing you may start and consider (if you haven't already) is a technical co-founder.

percy212

Best of luck OP. Try to avoid hiring pedantic programmers.

Digital Society

Graham wrote: »

Number of times I've come across a developer who's stolen someones idea, 0.

Thats nonsense really Every idea it seems in the last 10 years is someone elses idea stolen/improved/rehashed.

Name one good idea thats original seeing as every developer you know is apparently developing a unique original product.

Graham

Digital Society wrote: »

Thats nonsense really Every idea it seems in the last 10 years is someone elses idea stolen/improved/rehashed.

Name one good idea thats original seeing as every developer you know is apparently developing a unique original product.

Thanks for making Percy212's point

The Corinthian

Dad11 wrote: »

I had an idea that I would ne met with a lot of people trying to put me off and painting a somewhat negative picture. Maybe Ireland is not the right place to have it developed if it does make sense to build it.

Ireland is not a bad place to have an IT product developed on a technical level. Where it comes to cynicism, I can assure you that most other countries will be as 'negative' if not more so.

Where you may have a point is where it comes to raising investment. Investment deals in Ireland are not very good in general; if you can raise your VC in London, Frankfurt, New York, Zurich or Luxembourg, you're more likely to come out with a better deal than in Dublin where VC's will often try to scalp start-ups.

Digital Society wrote: »

Thats nonsense really Every idea it seems in the last 10 years is someone elses idea stolen/improved/rehashed.

Yes, but practically none have been 'stolen' in the sense of a developer taking the idea of a would-be entrepreneur and running with it themselves. Scenarios, such as the alleged theft of the idea that became Facebook from the Winklevoss brothers, are very, very rare.

Most successful 'thefts' are in reality based upon earlier attempts to bring something to market that either failed or had mediocre results. This is principally because it takes a lot more to 'steal' an idea than the ability to develop it.

srsly78

percy212 wrote: »

Best of luck OP. Try to avoid hiring pedantic programmers.

Software development is all about precisely codifying the smallest details, it's hard to imagine a more pedantic profession. So good luck with that.

The Corinthian

srsly78 wrote: »

Software development is all about precisely codifying the smallest details, it's hard to imagine a more pedantic profession. So good luck with that.

Pedantry is often invoked by some to explain those inconvenient truths that they've been told; if it's something they want to hear it's advice, when it's something they prefer wasn't true then it's pedantry.

BrianHenryIE

This is what you're looking for: The Swequity Exchange.

Good luck. Learn to spell before writing your business plan or people won't take it seriously. I hope it's social, mobile and local.

BrianHenryIE

srsly78 wrote: »

Software development is all about precisely codifying the smallest details, it's hard to imagine a more pedantic profession. So good luck with that.

I understood him as avoid people who want to refactor once more before launching instead of getting the MVP out the door.

The Corinthian

brian.henry wrote: »

I understood him as avoid people who want to refactor once more before launching instead of getting the MVP out the door.

Where did you get that from what he said?

BrianHenryIE

Pedantic about their code being top quality and perfectly engineered rather than being minimally functional for testing the business idea.

The Corinthian

brian.henry wrote: »

Pedantic about their code being top quality and perfectly engineered rather than being minimally functional for testing the business idea.

I understand what you mean, I just don't understand where you reckon he says anything like this.

BrianHenryIE

percy212 wrote: »

Try to avoid hiring pedantic programmers.

..because they'll delay launch in favour of their code being flawless?!

In a thread about a business idea, I don't think Percy means avoid people who, instead of taking advice, attribute inconvenient truths to something else.

The Corinthian

brian.henry wrote: »

..because they'll delay launch in favour of their code being flawless?!

Again, I understand your interpretation, I just don't think it has anything to do with anything Percy said - that's why I've asked where he did so.

In a thread about a business idea, I don't think Percy means avoid people who, instead of taking advice, attribute inconvenient truths to something else.

That's what it looked like to me. He advises never to put your hand in your own pocket and rely only on pre-sales. Unfortunately, this approach only really works where you can find a customer willing to pay for the development of a product (even just the MVP, with a big question mark on the 'V') and/or time and materials to reach that point are short enough to get there.

The vast majority of product development doesn't work that way and I 'pedantically' pointed it out to him. Next post from Percy was the one where he suggests not engaging 'pedantic programmers' - which is ironic because what I said is more likely to come from an analyst or project manager.

His response on pedantry struck me far more as someone who didn't like such inconvenient details being pointed out; certainly there is not a single indicator that he meant what you have interpreted.

Dad11

These meet ups. Where abouts in Dublin do they take place ?

Graham

Have a search on meetup.com, you can search geographically for specific interests. Here's a few topics to start you off searching:

iPhone apps
Mobile Development
iPhone App Developers
Android apps
Android developers
Windows Mobile
mobile applications
PhoneGap
Appcelerator Titanium
iOS Development
Mobile App Development

XCake in the national science gallery might also be worth a look.

percy212

This is what I meant. Specifically stay away from the negative aspergers types like Corinthian who will give you a heart attack by making everything seem impossible. Focus on the big picture. You are a business person in this scenario. Best of luck once again.

brian.henry wrote: »

I understood him as avoid people who want to refactor once more before launching instead of getting the MVP out the door.

Corkbah

percy212 wrote: »

This is what I meant. Specifically stay away from the negative aspergers types like Corinthian who will give you a heart attack by making everything seem impossible. Focus on the big picture. You are a business person in this scenario. Best of luck once again.

there's a thin line that you need to understand ... and maybe I'm misinterpreting what you (Percy) are saying.

yes there are programmers/developers out there who will try to bamboozle you with jargon in an effort to get an extra couple of weeks of payment or time to concentrate on other projects etc, BUT .... there are also programmers/developers out there who take pride in their work and want to save themselves time/effort by ensuring that bugs are minimal and the product works 100% ...you may call them pedantic ...but I'd rather a pedant than a bullsh1tter.

only problem is if you are not in complete understanding of the processes etc, you can find it difficult to tell the difference between the pedant and the bullsh1tter, I've had websites built for me and have discovered over the years that ....its simply down to your personal radar - sometimes you'll notice when someone is dragging their heels and sometimes you'll see this person is really productive and forward thinking.

as for the OP - I'm in a similar position to yourself, can see a market, I require a decent quality team to build my app/website ...and I simply cant afford to pay up, I've been sitting on the idea for almost 6yrs, there have been similar "ideas" launched but nothing as specific as mine ...its a niche area but also expansive..... my idea is a derivative of current processes, simply when you think about it ...just need to build then slowly market and increase usage - have already marked out marketing strategies, plans, promotions, advertising, revenue in and costs out.....market already exists but not in a formal manner and the market is reasonably small (circa 200-500K) ...and I'd like to limit it to Ireland with plans of local detup in other countries - after review of legalities.

Had quotations of between €10K-40K for development of the website alone - without apps (back in 2008) - for my project its more about a long term thing, so I dont want to offer "equity" ... I'd much rather pay up but I'm not convinced I've found the right team to build my vision.

OP - I think Graham said it earlier in the thread - what you (and I) need is a technical manager (essentially someone who can identify if the web developer/programmer is bullsh1tting)

The Corinthian

percy212 wrote: »

This is what I meant. Specifically stay away from the negative aspergers types like Corinthian who will give you a heart attack by making everything seem impossible. Focus on the big picture. You are a business person in this scenario. Best of luck once again.

If you'd actually like to point to where you said it, I'd appreciate it, because there's nowhere in what you wrote that comes even remotely close to that meaning.

You advised quite clearly:

percy212 wrote: »

My advice is DO NOT SPEND YOUR OWN MONEY ON PROGRAMMERS unless a client is paying you first.

Where's the mention (even indirect) of refactoring? Do you even know what refactoring means?

The principle thing I've advised is that people should do their homework before going with an idea, and secondly that real businesses realistically need capital so for you to suggest that you should never allow that capital to be your own, but that it should come from someone else is the hallmark of the Irish cowboy gombeen businessman.

Indeed, what you suggested is to get a client to effectively pay for your R&D and deliver them a MVP (i.e. the minimum you can get away with, is how I read that from you).

Nothing I suggested or advised should make a venture seem impossible - unless you come from that school of cowboy gombeen business where anything other than a 'get rich quick' idea is impossible on the basis of being too much effort. If that's the case, an IT venture is probably not for you.

Corkbah wrote: »

Had quotations of between €10K-40K for development of the website alone - without apps (back in 2008) - for my project its more about a long term thing, so I dont want to offer "equity" ... I'd much rather pay up but I'm not convinced I've found the right team to build my vision.

I'm presuming you've done your homework and your 'idea' has long-term commercial legs - not an accusation, just a starting point.

Go for written quotes, with breakdowns, from different developers and development houses; in my experience you'll get some seriously whacky quotes; for one project I had to manage, I got everything between €3k and €150k. As a rule of thumb the highs and lows should be thrown in the bin. Also bin anything where the marketing filler (generic crap about the company) makes up more than one third of the quote.

After that, you should look at if they have read and responded to what you've actually asked for in your RFT - you'll be amazed how many don't bother to read them and just give vague responses where they suggest lots of things you didn't ask for and few of the things you did ask for.

Finally, you should have a technical person sanity check it, especially the breakdown - they'll be able to catch out any padding (my all time favourite was two or three man-days for a bog standard contact form).

Be careful about engaging students or 'freelancers' who appear to have questionable experience. Even if they can cobble together something in the short term, if you've paid them with equity, you'll be stuck with them long after the complexity of the work has gone way beyond what they can handle.

If outsourcing, especially to the developing World, engage a technical project manager who's managed such teams. If you don't odds are that you'll have some nasty, time consuming and expensive experiences before finally finding an outsourced outfit who works well for you.

OP - I think Graham said it earlier in the thread - what you (and I) need is a technical manager (essentially someone who can identify if the web developer/programmer is bullsh1tting)

Yes, a lot of development houses (anywhere) will either be weak on business analysis and/or will actively seek to pad and overcharge. Some use clever honey-traps that will lose them money, except they're counting on you screwing up and looking for change requests later - which is where the real money is.

Someone at your end who can sanity check, both pre and post engagement, will save you a lot of grief, not only in the short term, but also in the long term, because if you are a success, it's a CTO you'll want to have at your side, not a code monkey and you'll already have found them.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

i have to agree with brian.henry's point about getting the MVP out as quick as possible. I'd also not bother with a business plan or any of that stuff, just get coding, if you are a coder. I get an idea for an app and I have it in the play store or submitted to apple as quickly as possible. my best was submitted within 5 days of the idea. it looks like crap and the code is copied/pasted from stackoverflow but it works. if it gets any bit of traction at all, I can improve it. if not, I move on to the next idea.

it infuriates me to hear of people with app or website ideas that they've had for years and they ask if I think it's a winner. how the hell do i know?! make it and see. i thought i had sure winners that went nowhere and vice-versa. of course, this is all easily said when i can develop my own ideas.

But you can get great external coders for dirt cheap. You're asking coders here for advice and of course they're going to say it costs a lot of money. Everyone rates their craft highly. But the truth is you can get great young coders and foreigners at fantastic prices. Development is far from a perfect market. I did fairly complex apps when I was broke for $300, because I needed money badly. I'm not a fantastic coder but I get the job done and the clients were happy so it's not always true that low prices mean crap developers.

ChRoMe

georgiecasey wrote: »

i have to agree with brian.henry's point about getting the MVP out as quick as possible. I'd also not bother with a business plan or any of that stuff, just get coding, if you are a coder. I get an idea for an app and I have it in the play store or submitted to apple as quickly as possible. my best was submitted within 5 days of the idea. it looks like crap and the code is copied/pasted from stackoverflow but it works. if it gets any bit of traction at all, I can improve it. if not, I move on to the next idea.

it infuriates me to hear of people with app or website ideas that they've had for years and they ask if I think it's a winner. how the hell do i know?! make it and see. i thought i had sure winners that went nowhere and vice-versa. of course, this is all easily said when i can develop my own ideas.

But you can get great external coders for dirt cheap. You're asking coders here for advice and of course they're going to say it costs a lot of money. Everyone rates their craft highly. But the truth is you can get great young coders and foreigners at fantastic prices. Development is far from a perfect market. I did fairly complex apps when I was broke for $300, because I needed money badly. I'm not a fantastic coder but I get the job done and the clients were happy so it's not always true that low prices mean crap developers.

I love people like you, because once the companies realise they can't get quality code for cheap, they have to pay the good developers to fix it

Keep it up!

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

ChRoMe wrote: »

I love people like you, because once the companies realise they can't get quality code for cheap, they have to pay the good developers to fix it

Keep it up!

do you outsource stuff often? it's a lot of work trudging through the scammers but you can get good people for dirt cheap eventually, usually Eastern Europeans.

quick question to you and all the people that agree, are you currently self-employed and/or in charge of hiring and outsourcing? or do you work a regular job for a company?

The Corinthian

georgiecasey wrote: »

do you outsource stuff often? it's a lot of work trudging through the scammers but you can get good people for dirt cheap eventually, usually Eastern Europeans.

I've outsourced and I agree, it's a lot of work trudging through the scammers but you can get good deals too.

Thing is I'm in the industry. Typically I can code it myself, but it often makes more sense to farm it out. I'm also familiar with requirements and specifications, and with how IT projects work.

From your previous posts, you also appear to come from an IT background, and I'd presume the above would not be a mystery to you.

However, many of those who post here don't come from an IT background. They know little or nothing about the technology or code. They've probably never heard of a technical specification or requirements document. If you mentioned waterfall to them, they'd probably think Niagara Falls or Powerscourt.

And that's why outsourcing is not a magic solution to development. Because they're far less likely to spot the scams, or even be able to deal competently with competent enough developers who might need that bit more effort, because of distance or language barriers.

As a result, it's extremely commonplace to have such people come back to you after a few months of throwing money down the drain, trying to get it done 'cheap'.

Now, go read the OP again and let is know if you really think that outsourcing is the best advice you could give them. If you gave such advice professionally, I'd advise your client to engage a solicitor with a view to suing you.