Saorview Connect

Capt'n Midnight

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Even if we had a combined 7 day epg would some fta channels still be missing. I see on another thread someone mentioned with freesat you only get the one itv and one c4 channel (set to your region). Is that correct?

That would be a bummer. I know you can set the freesat box to fta but would that be a bit of hassle and also no epg.

The only difference between the C4 regions is the ads so it doesn't matter.
You get all the BBC regions down in the 900's


You can manually add channels to get more ITV regions. (YMMV check your intended box first - you may have to press nearly as many buttons as to get to other channels as on a SKY box )

Channel list https://www.freesat.co.uk/channels you get ITV3/4/Be, 4e/more4/film4
It's great that you can do things like schedule recordings on BBC Radio 4

You also get S4C in Welsh and BBC Alba in Scots.

The regions can be handy as a +1 the odd time recording schedules conflict.

Tigerandahalf

That looks perfect in terms of channels you would need.

I think I will invest in a freesat box. I might wait until I have the connect box.

Hopefully the new saorview connect remote will be able to change inputs for the hdmi.

I have read on Amazon that the humax freesat box can have issues with freezing etc. Reviews are just 4/5.

When will the next generation freesat box be out?

The Cush

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

When will the next generation freesat box be out?

At a guess autumn 2018, the selected manufacturers are due to be announced before the end of the year.

Sam Russell

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

That looks perfect in terms of channels you would need.

I think I will invest in a freesat box. I might wait until I have the connect box.

Hopefully the new saorview connect remote will be able to change inputs for the hdmi.

I have read on Amazon that the humax freesat box can have issues with freezing etc. Reviews are just 4/5.

When will the next generation freesat box be out?

The Humax remote works the TV as well (depending on the TV of course).

Harry Palmr

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

That looks perfect in terms of channels you would need.

I think I will invest in a freesat box. I might wait until I have the connect box.

Hopefully the new saorview connect remote will be able to change inputs for the hdmi.

I have read on Amazon that the humax freesat box can have issues with freezing etc. Reviews are just 4/5.

When will the next generation freesat box be out?

Ignore Amazon ratings and read the reviews, people will give 1 out of 5 cos the box took three weeks to reach them or they considered the packaging was wasteful!

Former Former

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

OK, you say there is a fundamental problem, without telling us what that problem actually is.
The purpose of my post was to try to elicit some information around this alleged problem.

It would help if you could elaborate and maybe provide some reference to aid in a search.

Thanks.

Let's take the X-Factor as an example.

TV3 have paid for the Irish rights to X-Factor from ITV. Therefore ITV or its agents cannot enter into any other agreement which undermines the value of those rights. But that is exactly what they would be doing if a full service Freesat offering became officially available here.

Likewise, Saorview has a distribution agreement with TV3 for which TV3 (reluctantly) pays. Saorview cannot turn around and start providing a Freesat service which fundamentally devalues TV3's offering.

Both these scenarios would be breach of contract so neither can happen.

The availability of FTA signals and open source EPG data, and the easy purchase of official Freesat boxes on Amazon are facts of life.

However, it is a whole other kettle of fish for a business to sign a contract with a customer, and then deliberately set about undermining the value of that contract. You cannot do that.

Freesat may even run afoul of Sky and Virgin who have negotiated carriage of these UK channels on their platforms. As we've all noted, easier availability of a one-box solution instantly makes their products less attractive. Would they just stand by and watch? We'd all like to say "tough luck" to Sky and Virgin but that's not how the real world works.

STB.

Former Former wrote: »

Let's take the X-Factor as an example.

TV3 have paid for the Irish rights to X-Factor from ITV. Therefore ITV or its agents cannot enter into any other agreement which undermines the value of those rights. But that is exactly what they would be doing if a full service Freesat offering became officially available here.

Likewise, Saorview has a distribution agreement with TV3 for which TV3 (reluctantly) pays. Saorview cannot turn around and start providing a Freesat service which fundamentally devalues TV3's offering.

Both these scenarios would be breach of contract so neither can happen.

The availability of FTA signals and open source EPG data, and the easy purchase of official Freesat boxes on Amazon are facts of life.

However, it is a whole other kettle of fish for a business to sign a contract with a customer, and then deliberately set about undermining the value of that contract. You cannot do that.

Freesat may even run afoul of Sky and Virgin who have negotiated carriage of these UK channels on their platforms. As we've all noted, easier availability of a one-box solution instantly makes their products less attractive. Would they just stand by and watch? We'd all like to say "tough luck" to Sky and Virgin but that's not how the real world works.

All of these are very weak arguments.

The commercial realities of being on a combined epg already exists with the first released Saorview Combo box, being on the Virgin platform, being on the Sky Platform and finally the free availability of the transport streams in Ireland.

It has nothing to rights agreements for programmes. Your thinking that the lack of 7 day epg data alongside Saorview channels 7 day is not encroaching on the rights of Tv3 to buy Coronoation street for Ireland, is flawed.

First of all, the operation of both platforms is not in Saorviews hands.

It might be that Sky would kick up a fuss at an approriately packaged FTA competitive product, but they cannot have platform neutrality just their own way. In any event it is they that would have to tackle the bigger elephant in the room, which is the blanket coverage of Freesat into Ireland in the first instance. The licensed Irish Channels will not care. The more platforms they are on the better, even better if they are packaged with content that makes it more likely that their station is watched.

Gathering epg data from a legitimate provider to match the streams that have existed since 2003 is the only issue here. It doesnt change the fact that this elephant is already in the room and has been for some time. Having said all that there is still a very good case for an All Ireland FTA box as there is overspill in both parts and a dedicated Mini-Mux with NI, so it already exists for DVB-T.

There is so much that could have been done with this boxes development. The other is that it should contain commonly used apps such as netflix. The answer that the manufacturers dev team (who have subsequently went very quiet) have given is that the market was too small to interest them. What they didnt tell you is that the Netflix APK is available for nearly every bloody software platform, except their software implementation

FRIENDO

Tigerandahalf wrote:

I see on another thread someone mentioned with freesat you only get the one itv and one c4 channel (set to your region). Is that correct?

You can set freesat to any UK post code you want.
I have mine set to a Newry post code.
UTV on channel 103
Channel 4 104
UTV HD 111
S4C HD 120
C4HD 126
Channel 4 (London, I think) 974
ITV (London) 977

Be honest, I don't think I need anymore ITV/C4

Johnboy1951

Former Former wrote: »

Let's take the X-Factor as an example.

TV3 have paid for the Irish rights to X-Factor from ITV. Therefore ITV or its agents cannot enter into any other agreement which undermines the value of those rights. But that is exactly what they would be doing if a full service Freesat offering became officially available here.

Likewise, Saorview has a distribution agreement with TV3 for which TV3 (reluctantly) pays. Saorview cannot turn around and start providing a Freesat service which fundamentally devalues TV3's offering.

Both these scenarios would be breach of contract so neither can happen.

The availability of FTA signals and open source EPG data, and the easy purchase of official Freesat boxes on Amazon are facts of life.

However, it is a whole other kettle of fish for a business to sign a contract with a customer, and then deliberately set about undermining the value of that contract. You cannot do that.

Freesat may even run afoul of Sky and Virgin who have negotiated carriage of these UK channels on their platforms. As we've all noted, easier availability of a one-box solution instantly makes their products less attractive. Would they just stand by and watch? We'd all like to say "tough luck" to Sky and Virgin but that's not how the real world works.

Could you address the point without bringing in Freesat or Sky or any other existing proprietary EPG software as that can confuse the issue?

TV3 might well have paid for the Irish rights to broadcast some programme, but that does not give them (as far as I can determine) the right to prevent anyone else from showing the EPG of that programme, provided they do not use proprietary software to display it, without first getting a licence.


What prevents RTÉ from displaying a full 7-day EPG on their connect box?

The EPG data is publicly available.
They are making the channels available in the connect box by the presence of the Sat tuner.

I have trawled the net for a couple of hours and found nothing at all to indicate they could run afoul of any agreement or copyright or any other issue.

In fact it seems that I can (if I have the capability) develop EPG software for such channels and sell that software without impinging on any rights or agreement.

So the question is ...... what have I missed?
What prevents me or RTÉ or anyone else from using the freely available data?

STB.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

So the question is ...... what have I missed?
What prevents me or RTÉ or anyone else from using the freely available data?

I dont think its packaging the content that would put them up against a set number of UK channels that already exists.

Those UK broadcasters cannot target advertising outside their jusrisdictions, although I am sure its abused.

It would be a minor shítstorm if anything, with Sky laying it firmly at the door of Freesat. Freesat would have to find a better DTH satellite pattern that would cost a lot of money. EPG data is a relatively small issue to the streams already competively blasting into the country.

Solution. Setup a seperate entity for free to air and get Saorview certification.

Former Former

I can't explain it any more clearly lads.

It's now up to you to accept reality or not. I know that's a bit of a dick thing to say but it's the way of it.

There is a) what you want and b) what you can have. a) and b) may not always be the same. Such is life.

STB.

Former Former wrote: »

I can't explain it any more clearly lads.

You didnt explain it. You explained your understanding of it. These are not the one and the same.

It has nothing to do with programming rights.

Capt'n Midnight

FRIENDO wrote: »

You can set freesat to any UK post code you want.
I have mine set to a Newry post code.
UTV on channel 103
Channel 4 104
UTV HD 111
S4C HD 120
C4HD 126
Channel 4 (London, I think) 974
ITV (London) 977

Be honest, I don't think I need anymore ITV/C4

or if lazy try BT1 without the second bit

Johnboy1951

STB. wrote: »

I dont think its packaging the content that would put them up against a set number of UK channels that already exists.

Those UK broadcasters cannot target advertising outside their jusrisdictions, although I am sure its abused.

It would be a minor shítstorm if anything, with Sky laying it firmly at the door of Freesat. Freesat would have to find a better DTH satellite pattern that would cost a lot of money. EPG data is a relatively small issue to the streams already competively blasting into the country.

Solution. Setup a seperate entity for free to air and get Saorview certification.

I do not follow this

If some other entity uses the data and neither Sky nor Freesat have control over that data and its use (except in their own proprietary software), then how does this apply?

STB.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I do not follow this

If some other entity uses the data and neither Sky nor Freesat have control over that data and its use (except in their own proprietary software), then how does this apply?

I wasnt talking about the data, I was talking about the already availability of these stations on a blanket basis within Ireland.

That has always been the elephant in the room, not the epg data!

Johnboy1951

STB. wrote: »

I wasnt talking about the data, I was talking about the already availability of these stations on a blanket basis within Ireland.

That has always been the elephant in the room, not the epg data!

OK, got ye

But on that ..... does Freesat control which satellite that all those channels use?
I thought not.

If not Freesat would not have the power to change anything?

STB.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

OK, got ye

But on that ..... does Freesat control which satellite that all those channels use?
I thought not.

If not Freesat would not have the power to change anything?

Freesat is owned by ITV and BBC.

Yes they chose the satellite. Astra 2D was considered tight enough to drop encryption. It isnt.

Thats the bigger elephant in the room. Making these channels available on a box but not on the Saorview platform is the distinction that needs to be made!!! A box is not the platform.

Combo boxes are already marketed by Saorview. Adding an epg solution is small fry. The only upset people would be subscription tv companies who have been happily taking money for these free to air services for a very long time and wouldnt wish to see an appropriately packaged product.

Capt'n Midnight

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

That looks perfect in terms of channels you would need.

I think I will invest in a freesat box. I might wait until I have the connect box.

Hopefully the new saorview connect remote will be able to change inputs for the hdmi.

I have read on Amazon that the humax freesat box can have issues with freezing etc. Reviews are just 4/5.

When will the next generation freesat box be out?

HDMI issue could be as simple as telling the telly to switch to active HDMI source. Depending on the telly it should jump back to the previous input once you put the Foxsat on standby.

Plan B
I'm using a dirt cheap HDMI switch that jumps between two satellite boxes when you turn them on/off except that the ancient Foxsat keeps the HDMI powered when recording on standby so sometimes you have to press the button on the switch if you've lost it's remote. Might throw the Linux box and the Blu-Ray on a CEC enabled switch and see how they behave on it.


You can't use the On Demand and all the other geo-blocked goodies on the Freesat Boxes so I'm still using a ancient Foxsat HDR box because of all the added goodness, like a web interface.

It's slow and if you have too many recordings the media list is virtually unusable until you delete a few, but stupidly flexible if you have a little patience. Yes you can do more with a Linux box but a Freesat box is pretty much idiot proof and just works.

Johnboy1951

STB. wrote: »

Freesat is owned by ITV and BBC.

Yes they chose the satellite. Astra 2D was considered tight enough to drop encryption. It isnt.

Not a lot can be done if N.I. is to be covered by the same satellite.

Thats the bigger elephant in the room. Making these channels available on a box but not on the Saorview platform is the distinction that needs to be made!!! A box is not the platform.

Indeed ....

Combo boxes are already marketed by Saorview. Adding an epg solution is small fry. The only upset people would be subscription tv companies who have been happily taking money for these free to air services for a very long time and wouldnt wish to see an appropriately packaged product.

Yes and they have no power to do anything about it, that I am aware of.

It still seems there is no reason a 7-day EPG could not be incorporated into a Saorview combo box.

Yes I understand the connect box is never going to have a lot of things in it, so it is a dead duck IMO.

Sam Russell

Why are 2RN or Saorview getting involved in this kind of product? Surely they should just define what their interface will/can do and let box manufacturers get on with it? I think they are lost in a vanity project trying to ape Freesat.

Johnboy1951

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why are 2RN or Saorview getting involved in this kind of product? Surely they should just define what their interface will/can do and let box manufacturers get on with it? I think they are lost in a vanity project trying to ape Freesat.

Good question ...... which is even more pointed considering the terrible job they have done with the connect!

Gerry Wicklow

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why are 2RN or Saorview getting involved in this kind of product? Surely they should just define what their interface will/can do and let box manufacturers get on with it? I think they are lost in a vanity project trying to ape Freesat.

I think the simple truth is that no manufacturer would be bothered doing it themselves given the very limited market.

Former Former

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

I think the simple truth is that no manufacturer would be bothered doing it themselves given the very limited market.

Exactly.

NOBODY wants to be involved with Saorview. It is a product of public service obligations and nothing else.

The audience, budget and clout, needed to deliver on what people here want, simply are not there.

STB.

Former Former wrote: »

Exactly.

NOBODY wants to be involved with Saorview. It is a product of public service obligations and nothing else.

The audience, budget and clout, needed to deliver on what people here want, simply are not there.

Whether they like it or not, RTE spent €75 million plus into the platform. There was too much faffing with the commercial mux and events passed them by.

Even so, they now have a platform that will not survive with just a handful of stations. It needs more content. Hence why they included a satellite tuner, knowing that the concept of people wishing to see the mix is actuallly real.

But when it came to putting that all together they do a half arse job on the channel mix integration and make a vanity box with IP playback and stupid suggested programmes of RTE content, rather than produce one that will fulfill the basic integrated requirements for viewing and/or recording both sat & terrestrial free to air channels available in Ireland.

Johnboy1951

I wonder what was their estimate sales number over three years?

Tigerandahalf

Re the hdmi input changing. I have only one hdmi slot so I bought a hdmi splitter. It has 3 hdmi slots and the other end goes into the tv.

I have a Chromecast and the combo box plugged into 2 of the slots. The Chromecast is the master in that when I switch it on at the wall it takes over. Switch it off and the combo gets priority. There is a button on it but I never use it.

I will have to see what happens when I plug in the Freesat box.

Gerry Wicklow

STB. wrote: »

Whether they like it or not, RTE spent €75 million plus into the platform. There was too much faffing with the commercial mux and events passed them by.

Even so, they now have a platform that will not survive with just a handful of stations. It needs more content. Hence why they included a satellite tuner, knowing that the concept of people wishing to see the mix is actuallly real.

But when it came to putting that all together they do a half arse job on the channel mix integration and make a vanity box with IP playback and stupid suggested programmes of RTE content, rather than produce one that will fulfill the basic integrated requirements for viewing and/or recording both sat & terrestrial free to air channels available in Ireland.

In the end we get the Dublin 4 mentality again. Even the maker's rep said it earlier. Basically we got what they wanted rather than what we (the market) wanted.

STB.

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I wonder what was their estimate sales number over three years?

How many doesnt know no betters are there. The ones who wouldnt be box anoraks. Too many!

Wouldnt like to be the retailer telling the distributors it'll be sale or return basis only.

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

In the end we get the Dublin 4 mentality again. Even the maker's rep said it earlier. Basically we got what they wanted rather than what we (the market) wanted.

Still wasnt the box Saorview the brand rather than RTE the player and their IPTV content. Not like they would have had the support of the morriss dancing commercial. They might of had to put their hands in their pocket.

Capt'n Midnight

STB. wrote: »

Freesat is owned by ITV and BBC.

Yes they chose the satellite. Astra 2D was considered tight enough to drop encryption. It isnt.

Thats the bigger elephant in the room. Making these channels available on a box but not on the Saorview platform is the distinction that needs to be made!!! A box is not the platform.

Combo boxes are already marketed by Saorview. Adding an epg solution is small fry. The only upset people would be subscription tv companies who have been happily taking money for these free to air services for a very long time and wouldnt wish to see an appropriately packaged product.

Astra 2D is tight enough. It only overspills here, Iceland and a bit of France. So only a few % extra viewers at most, it's still cheaper than paying for the encryption and the cards and the handling and support. The previous beam covered lots of Europe where there are 300 million people who have some degree of English, which is why they had to use Free To View cards.

Technically they could put a tighter shaped beam on the next satellite up which would mean we'd have to get bigger dishes. I can't see them moving to the Ka beams like Saorsat because so many people there are already pointing at Astra.

decor58

ITV2 wrote:

ITV Hub still works on Ch903 for me, but on the app it dead like the other bbc/c4/c5 ones.

Yeah, thats working fine, thanks for that.