Would the rest of the UK survive a Scottish exit?

Rubeter

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

They identify as Northern Irish. A new breed of the Irish nationality distinct from the Southerners. As you said yourself nationality is never static and constantly evolving. Based on previous demographics regarding the rapid growth of this new nationality we can expect the Northern Irish identity to continue growing and evolving as Northern Ireland becomes a fixed entity within the UK. Obviously both conditions have to work together to make this happen.

I don't know where you have pulled this idea of people in the north developing a "new" nationality from because it doesn't exist, is someone from Wales not Welsh if they call themself British? Is someone from Innis Óirr not Irish if they call themself an Aran Islander? Am I not Irish if I call myself a Munster man?
Is someone a "different" sort of American if they call themself an African American

The Irish nation consists of all the Irish people whether they are northern Irish or southern Irish, as I asked you before ,which of these are the "real" Irish?

Maybe you should go the north and actually chat to a few people, the reality might surprise you.

Scofflaw

I'm not going to close the thread, because some people are still discussing Scotland. Others, however, are discussing NI in the usual way, so:

Happyman42: red card because you're the worst offender and largely the instigator here. If you have "no opinion on the Scottish referendum" and want to discuss NI, go and do it somewhere else. Repeat = ban.

Iwasfrozen, Charlie Rock, Rubeter: yellow cards. Repeat = red cards.

This thread is about Scotland. Everything is not about NI.

moderately,
Scofflaw

realweirdo

It's an interesting debate.

The more pertinent question might be can Scotland survive outside the UK?

Economically I don't think its either in the UKs or Scotlands interest to leave, especially if they decided to keep the Bank of England as their central bank and keep the pound.

Scottish oil is a finite resource and will run out in 50-100 years. Scotland will require massive public investment in renewables and possibly nuclear energy.

I think the UK will survive ok. Wales might wait a decade or two to see how Scotland gets on and then decide to go for independence itself.

I don't think most English people would even notice if Scotland left the UK or care.

uncle_mick

Rubeter wrote: »

I don't know where you have pulled this idea of people in the north developing a "new" nationality from because it doesn't exist, is someone from Wales not Welsh if they call themself British? Is someone from Innis Óirr not Irish if they call themself an Aran Islander? Am I not Irish if I call myself a Munster man?
Is someone a "different" sort of American if they call themself an African American

The Irish nation consists of all the Irish people whether they are northern Irish or southern Irish, as I asked you before ,which of these are the "real" Irish?

Maybe you should go the north and actually chat to a few people, the reality might surprise you.

ian paisley once refered to himself as an irish man but in this statement was a snide rub

for a unionist like ian paisley to label himself irish is to completely reduce irishness to something meaningless , in reality , a unionist calling themselves irish is akin to a german calling themselves French or Brazilian , unionist in northern Ireland are not irish ( their prerogative btw ) and despise the very concept

ewan whose army

uncle_mick wrote: »

ian paisley once refered to himself as an irish man but in this statement was a snide rub

for a unionist like ian paisley to label himself irish is to completely reduce irishness to something meaningless , in reality , a unionist calling themselves irish is akin to a german calling themselves French or Brazilian , unionist in northern Ireland are not irish ( their prerogative btw ) and despise the very concept

That depends on what you define as Irish. Purely by definition he would be Irish since he was Born and lives on the Island of Ireland . As opposed to being British since he has never lived on the island of Britain. I am not saying thats the case just making a point on the existence of arbitrary labels of national identity.

Do you think we see him as British, not many people do I am afraid, he is more or less universally hated in Britain. Look at the reception his son got on Questiontime when he blurted a load of homophobic crap.

uncle_mick

ewan whose army wrote: »

That depends on what you define as Irish. Purely by definition he would be Irish since he was Born and lives on the Island of Ireland . As opposed to being British since he has never lived on the island of Britain. I am not saying thats the case just making a point on the existence of arbitrary labels of national identity.

Do you think we see him as British, not many people do I am afraid, he is more or less universally hated in Britain. Look at the reception his son got on Questiontime when he blurted a load of homophobic crap.

I don't hate paisley , I only brought him up due to the comment he made

their are several nations on the island of north America , landmass does not define nationality so I don't buy the idea that if you were born on the island of Ireland , you are by definition " irish "

as far as im concerned , referring to oneself as irish and british is an insult to the concept of irishness , it dilutes it , I have no problem with unionists who refer to themselves as british btw

ewan whose army

uncle_mick wrote: »

I don't hate paisley , I only brought him up due to the comment he made

their are several nations on the island of north America , landmass does not define nationality so I don't buy the idea that if you were born on the island of Ireland , you are by definition " irish "

as far as im concerned , referring to oneself as irish and british is an insult to the concept of irishness , it dilutes it , I have no problem with unionists who refer to themselves as british btw

What if you in the case of so many are of mixed say English and Irish decent? Wouldn't that make you British and Irish especially if you are a dual national?

I may be skewed about Paisley as a LGBT Brit I think he is vile but thats my opinion

uncle_mick

ewan whose army wrote: »

What if you in the case of so many are of mixed say English and Irish decent? Wouldn't that make you British and Irish especially if you are a dual national?

I may be skewed about Paisley as a LGBT Brit I think he is vile but thats my opinion

that's a different context , ones heritage - ancestry can be irish but nationality british , American , Australian

View

ewan whose army wrote: »

What if you in the case of so many are of mixed say English and Irish decent?

You get to split the difference and qualify as "Welsh" in that case. :-)

Iwasfrozen

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'm not going to close the thread, because some people are still discussing Scotland. Others, however, are discussing NI in the usual way, so:

Happyman42: red card because you're the worst offender and largely the instigator here. If you have "no opinion on the Scottish referendum" and want to discuss NI, go and do it somewhere else. Repeat = ban.

Iwasfrozen, Charlie Rock, Rubeter: yellow cards. Repeat = red cards.

This thread is about Scotland. Everything is not about NI.

moderately,
Scofflaw

It's not just about Scotland it's about the effect on the UK of Scottish withdrawal as said in the thread title. That is very much about Northern Ireland.

ewan whose army

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It's not just about Scotland it's about the effect on the UK of Scottish withdrawal as said in the thread title. That is very much about Northern Ireland.

True but there is more than NI, England is more of interest since it boarders Scotland.

I have no idea what is this is going to do to people like me, I am Scottish but I grew up in England so I don't really identify with England and I don't really identify with England (Culturally) , it was always Kayley's , St Andrew's Day, Burns Suppers (since my town is right on the Border and actually used to be Scotland and is about 20 miles from Dumfries) etc. I never knew when St.George's day was until I went to Uni in the West Mids and saw a load of pubs full of people in England shirts when there was no game one (I asked one of them and they were gobsmacked I didn't know, well I have never celebrated it)

This independence thing could split up my family into different countries, my grandparents and Mum would be a different nationality from me all of a sudden (because the UK government ruled out any chance of independent Scots keeping their British passports)

Personally I think the Union will crash if Scotland leaves, there is an underlying Separatist view in some walks in England, it just hasn't really been noticed but is getting loud thanks to the Scots. England doesn't give a flying monkey about Northern Ireland (There are alot of people in England who forget its part of the UK, the Riots over the flags never got mainstream coverage despite the fact that Riots elsewhere would)

I wouldn't accept an English passport if that ever does happen, but by that point I would probably go for Irish nationality or something since my partner is Irish and my life is over here.

I actually fear for the UK, the only reason why the Tories don't run away with a Majority is thanks to Scotland (there are more Pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs), imagine what a Tory majority of 40MPs would do to the UK !!!!! I dread to think, it would probably pull out the EU, waste money on Privatizing everything etc. I don't want to live in that. I also fear that more insane policies would get through like National Service etc.

Anyway this is just conjecture, the Yes vote has slipped in the latest opinion poll its nearly below 30% with 55% No.

Fratton Fred

Who will get to vote?

Will an Englishman in Scotland get a vote, but not a Scot in England?

What about someone born in England to Scottish parents, or one Scottish parent?

Then there's the military....

I think most Scots will just decide there are too many unknowns, for little gain. The Scottish identity is very strong and Scotland has a high degree of autonomy already. Would independence change that to any great degree.

ewan whose army

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Who will get to vote?

Will an Englishman in Scotland get a vote, but not a Scot in England?

What about someone born in England to Scottish parents, or one Scottish parent?

Then there's the military....

I think most Scots will just decide there are too many unknowns, for little gain. The Scottish identity is very strong and Scotland has a high degree of autonomy already. Would independence change that to any great degree.

You just have to have lived in Scotland for the previous 3 years. So an Englishmen in Scotland can vote, but a Scotsman who moved to England can't

sfakiaman

"Would the rest of the UK survive a Scottish exit?"

If taxes and revenues from Scottish resources are a major component of the UK revenue stream, ie the UK & NI gains substantially from the Scottish membership of the union then the UK will suffer substantial loss. However the NO side in the independence debate all say that Scotland cannot afford to go it alone and is subsidised by the rest of the UK. If the No side is correct then the UK will benefit from a Scottish withdrawal from the Union and will be better able to subsidise NI and Wales.

The political effect on Westminster would probably be to ensure a fairly right wing government unhindered by the influence of Scottish Labour MPs, this could lead to political unrest in northern england and Wales where people might want equality with Scotland.

Many of the points mentioned in the thread are simply scare tactics, things like MPH v KPH, passports, currency exchange, etc. and have no bearing on the UK's survival.

From my point of view what a country requires for survival as an independent entity (whether Scotland, UK or Eire) is that it can feed itself, provide it's own water and power and produce goods and services to trade for the other things it requires that it cannot produce for its self. Scotland can do this, can the rest of the UK?