6 Reasons (+2) to NOT Send Your Daughter to College

Femme_Fatale

I don't get this "Universities are too liberal" thing. The more educated and intelligent and critically thinking a person is, the more likely they are to veer left of centre and consider the bigger, more complex picture in terms of their views.

coffee_cake

I am socially left and economically right, I don't know about intelligence = left

Femme_Fatale

Yeh fair enough. I'm referring moreso to socially/culturally left-of-centre.

meeeeh

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I don't get this "Universities are too liberal" thing. The more educated and intelligent and critically thinking a person is, the more likely they are tr left of centre and consider the bigger, more complex picture in terms of their views.

Where I was science, engineering and similar were a lot more conservative (and considered us idiots). People from arts, especially media will be more likely on tv and in newspapers, so the opinion how left wing are universities is a bit skewed at the best of times. Especially regarding social issues.

clairefontaine

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I don't get this "Universities are too liberal" thing. The more educated and intelligent and critically thinking a person is, the more likely they are to veer left of centre and consider the bigger, more complex picture in terms of their views.

BA hahahahahaha.

First of all left and right mean totally different things on either side of the pond. This OP was an American perspective right? About American universities right?

Who says people in university are all critical thinkers? And being more left does not mean you you are more educated, intelligent etc. I don't kow where to start with this assumption.

I saw lots of rich NYU students in Che Guevara t shirts. I wanted to throw burritos at them. It's the same across the nation.

Femme_Fatale

clairefontaine wrote: »

BA hahahahahaha.

First of all left and right mean totally different things on either side of the pond. This OP was an American perspective right? About American universities right?

Who says people in university are all critical thinkers? And being more left does not mean you you are more educated, intelligent etc. I don't kow where to start with this assumption.

I saw lots of rich NYU students in Che Guevara t shirts. I wanted to throw burritos at them. It's the same across the nation.

Standing by it. I just mean left of centre anyway, not having insincere far-left pretensions like those rich eejits in Che t-shirts.

Not saying everyone who goes to college is automatically intelligent either.

meeeeh

I think in general poorer or less educated people are more likely conservative in political opinion. But it works only up to a point and it hard to generalize, especially because political parties became a lot more fractured in their policies and it is sometimes hard to make ckear left-right distinction. I don't know much about the research that is not linked to voting and it's more about general outlook.

metaoblivia

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Standing by it. I just mean left of centre anyway, not having insincere far-left pretensions like those rich eejits in Che t-shirts.

Not saying everyone who goes to college is automatically intelligent either.

I agree. I attended a private, all female university in Massachusetts that some might accuse of being a liberal brainwashing machine, and I wonder - have these people who make such accusations ever attended a class in a university like my alma mater? Have they ever even been on campus? Do they know what actually goes on there, on a day to day basis? The accusations are so hyperbolic and hysterical (brainwashing, lol, what?), I just can't help but wonder.
The students and faculty on my campus had a variety of political leanings, ranging from anarchists to libertarians to socialists to everything in between. Sure, there probably were more people who leaned liberal, but it was predominantly female and in Massachusetts - those two factors alone tend to skew more liberal. I don't even recall that much political discussion taking place in my classes, although perhaps that was down to my field of study.
I also attended a state university, and I knew just as many vocal conservatives as I did liberals. So in my personal experience, I don't know where universities get this reputation for indoctrinating students with liberal ideas. It's ridiculous in my opinion.

clairefontaine

metaoblivia wrote: »

I agree. I attended a private, all female university in Massachusetts that some might accuse of being a liberal brainwashing machine, and I wonder - have these people who make such accusations ever attended a class in a university like my alma mater? Have they ever even been on campus? Do they know what actually goes on there, on a day to day basis? The accusations are so hyperbolic and hysterical (brainwashing, lol, what?), I just can't help but wonder.
The students and faculty on my campus had a variety of political leanings, ranging from anarchists to libertarians to socialists to everything in between. Sure, there probably were more people who leaned liberal, but it was predominantly female and in Massachusetts - those two factors alone tend to skew more liberal. I don't even recall that much political discussion taking place in my classes, although perhaps that was down to my field of study.
I also attended a state university, and I knew just as many vocal conservatives as I did liberals. So in my personal experience, I don't know where universities get this reputation for indoctrinating students with liberal ideas. It's ridiculous in my opinion.

Yes. I have.

clairefontaine

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ohk-Ey01c9k

Moomoo1

clairefontaine wrote: »

BA hahahahahaha.

First of all left and right mean totally different things on either side of the pond. This OP was an American perspective right? About American universities right?

Who says people in university are all critical thinkers? And being more left does not mean you you are more educated, intelligent etc. I don't know where to start with this assumption.

I saw lots of rich NYU students in Che Guevara t shirts. I wanted to throw burritos at them. It's the same across the nation.

equally, there are plenty of american universities that are very right-wing. A friend of my wife did an economics course that hardly ever mentioned the existence of either Marx or Keynes. And there many of those business and economics colleges dotted around.

but you never ever hear of those, you always hear endless complaints about liberal arts schools and the like. Of course, you can always reply by saying that if you don't like it, become a professor and project your views to students - just like they are fond of throwing 'don't like it start your own business' to those wanting to say tax the rich.

Femme_Fatale

Left-leaning is going to be the default for a lot of university courses in the humanities. It isn't some big brainwashing conspiracy.

GalwayGuy2

Hmmm, I wonder do most people even learn critical thinking skills in Uni? It seems more people learn how to critique another person's, or perhaps even the oppositions, opinion, rather than their own. Also, if your whole study of critical thinking is built on the foundation of the left, then surely that would affect your thought processes?

And, I've always found the mention of Critical Thinking in Uni to be reminiscent of middle class snobbery. It's kind of like saying that "the educated folk" have the right way of thinking, and the "Uneducated folk do no not." Not pointing the finger at anybody in this thread, more being judgmental on Uni.

Oh, and I said some lecturers bordered on indoctrination, not all, or even most.

meeeeh

Moomoo1 wrote: »

equally, there are plenty of american universities that are very right-wing. A friend of my wife did an economics course that hardly ever mentioned the existence of either Marx or Keynes. And there many of those business and economics colleges dotted around.

I'll give you Keynes but Marx really isn't relevant in any other way than in historical terms.

Moomoo1

meeeeh wrote: »

I'll give you Keynes but Marx really isn't relevant in any other way than in historical terms.

I would disagree, I think Marx is as relevant as ever. But never having done Economics I cannot say how much he features in your average undergraduate course.

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Hmmm, I wonder do most people even learn critical thinking skills in Uni? It seems more people learn how to critique another person's, or perhaps even the oppositions, opinion, rather than their own.
Oh, and I said some lecturers bordered on indoctrination, not all, or even most.

fair point. Although I would say that hearing a well-expressed and well-argued political opinion with facts to back it up is always good for you.

but according to this

http://www.ropercenter.uconn.edu/elections/how_groups_voted/voted_12.html

according to this, people who went to college in the US were most likely of any other group (education-based) to vote Republican. I understand that there is a multiplicity of other factors in play, but even so.

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Also, if your whole study of critical thinking is built on the foundation of the left, then surely that would affect your thought processes?

yes, it is inevitable that your political convictions colour what you teach, and we can discuss (should we really want to) how much a lecturer can prevent that in a subject like Social Science or History. But university employees are not chosen based on political affiliation, and so the sum total of the political opinions students get to hear should in theory represent a fair spread of those present among people with an academic career. Why in some subjects the average academic tends to lean to the left is also a separate, and difficult, question.

pwurple

meeeeh wrote: »

I think in general poorer or less educated people are more likely conservative in political opinion. But it works only up to a point and it hard to generalize, especially because political parties became a lot more fractured in their policies and it is sometimes hard to make ckear left-right distinction. I don't know much about the research that is not linked to voting and it's more about general outlook.

I don't agree with this generalisation, as it applies to economic policy at least.

Right leaning policies are low tax, low state service models. Left leaning policies are high tax, high state service policies... Like the nordic countries.

In my experience the wealthier you are, the more you resent forking over massive amounts of your income to the govt, especially when it impedes your ability to hire more people and grow your business. The poorer you are, the more likely you are to be a net recipient, and hence all in favour of state services and supplements.

The poorer benefit much more from a left wing economic policy with a robust social welfare system, and tend to vocally suppport it.

mariaalice

If you are very poor you are more likely not to vote or to be involved in politics.

Education is always a good thing.

I am back studding part time at the moment and I am enjoying it.

The course I do has a very left wing bias because of the nature of what we are studying, and studying it as a mature adult I can be critical and I have more life experience to reflect on, so I take some of what I am being told with a pinch of salt, However as an 18 year old studying you don't have that life experience to analyse what you are being told.

meeeeh

pwurple wrote: »

I don't agree with this generalisation, as it applies to economic policy at least.

Right leaning policies are low tax, low state service models. Left leaning policies are high tax, high state service policies... Like the nordic countries.

In my experience the wealthier you are, the more you resent forking over massive amounts of your income to the govt, especially when it impedes your ability to hire more people and grow your business. The poorer you are, the more likely you are to be a net recipient, and hence all in favour of state services and supplements.

The poorer benefit much more from a left wing economic policy with a robust social welfare system, and tend to vocally suppport it.

http://www.yale.edu/leitner/resources/docs/huber-stanig.pdf

This is an interesting paper that goes through numerous categories in different countries.

Religion has a huge say in voting preferences, especially in less urbanized countries (Ireland). Urban poor are most definitely left wing leaning but the average income is lower in rural areas where there is right wing preference (and also higher level religious people, education is lower in rural areas).

clairefontaine

meeeeh wrote: »

http://www.yale.edu/leitner/resources/docs/huber-stanig.pdf

This is an interesting paper that goes through numerous categories in different countries.

Religion has a huge say in voting preferences, especially in less urbanized countries (Ireland). Urban poor are most definitely left wing leaning but the average income is lower in rural areas where there is right wing preference (and also higher level religious people, education is lower in rural areas).

Voting choices and ones own political philosophy are not always congruous. I don't always vote for the person in the party that I would necessarily philosophically gel with. Take Nixon for example, theoretically right wing, but in reality an interfering socialist.

pwurple

meeeeh wrote: »

http://www.yale.edu/leitner/resources/docs/huber-stanig.pdf

This is an interesting paper that goes through numerous categories in different countries.

Religion has a huge say in voting preferences, especially in less urbanized countries (Ireland). Urban poor are most definitely left wing leaning but the average income is lower in rural areas where there is right wing preference (and also higher level religious people, education is lower in rural areas).

The paper is interesting, but the reference to Ireland is based only on the 2002 elections. Which, if I remember rightly, was boom time, and based on a giveaway FF and PD budget where both right and left economic policies were muddled. Tax was lowered(right) and SW increased(left). Everyone had something tasty to vote for in their own self interest in that election. We also had near 100% employment at the time, so the number of effective poor with a vote would have been tiny. I don't think that data is valid for use as a reference, it was surely a blip on our voting history.

The paper does discuss the other reasons for right wing leaning, which include ethnic heterogenity, and being religious. So, it is saying that social reasons outweigh financial for the uneducated poor.

meeeeh

They do. From other research there is coleration between poverty and religion. Rural areas are more likely be conservative (and less educated). The sane left parties today are often closer to the public sector middle class. Ireland is a bit of anomaly because main government and opposition party are right wing. And even so called left parties are either in the middle or clowns.

It is very hard to generalize and I'm no way implying that all right wing voters are stupid, but there are some broad pointers. Part of the reason is also the fact that working class is disappearing and middle class is increasing and left is looking for votes more on the social than economic issues. Btw I would more likely vote right in European (US right is too conservative) context because economy thrumps social issues for me .

Anyway I think that left is more and more intertwined with public sector which would also cover a lot of university staff.

Moomoo1

meeeeh wrote: »

They do. From other research there is coleration between poverty and religion. Rural areas are more likely be conservative (and less educated). The sane left parties today are often closer to the public sector middle class. Ireland is a bit of anomaly because main government and opposition party are right wing. And even so called left parties are either in the middle or clowns.

It is very hard to generalize and I'm no way implying that all right wing voters are stupid, but there are some broad pointers. Part of the reason is also the fact that working class is disappearing and middle class is increasing and left is looking for votes more on the social than economic issues. Btw I would more likely vote right in European (US right is too conservative) context because economy thrumps social issues for me .

Anyway I think that left is more and more intertwined with public sector which would also cover a lot of university staff.

the comparison between 'voting against self-interest' and ethnic heterogeneity/religion/individual liberty is interesting but imo does not explain everything. Firstly there is the spin: you might be swayed by politics of envy (which both sides use: the Left against the rich and the Right against people on welfare), or by the doom-mongering (the right will freeze our pensioners to death/the left will stunt growth and lose you your minimum wage job) or indeed by which leader cult you find more appealing. And secondly, it is not always clear what 'self-interest' is: eg one party might tell you your minimum wage might be raised and the other that if it is raised you might lose your job, so it comes down to who you believe. There must be others, but I can't think of any.

personally, I vote Left, always have. I think both sides are equally capable of making a terrible mess with the economy, but the Left at least pays lip service to social issues. Self-interest isn't really something I ever consider, it's all about who can help those less fortunate the best for me.

Gandhi

This thread reminded me of a picture that the previous owners had hanging in my house. The wife owned her own software company, so I imagine it was a joke. You can click on it for a full-size version that is easier to read.

coffee_cake

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