Differences between Irish and Greek protesters?

Icepick

Idbatterim wrote: »

I dont think the Irish have anywhere near the same sense of delusion or entitlement as the greeks! I have read a lot about the Greeks and their situation, we dont even come close, nowhere near it, they are in a total league of their own...

check the benefits section on boards

Idbatterim

check the benefits section on boards

I agree Icepick, but I am referring to their society as a whole, I agree its very prevalent here, but over there it just seemed insane...

hmmm

First we need to decide what we're protesting about.

I'm happy to hit the streets to protest:
- The public sector unions striving to maintain salaries while services are cut
- The lack of repossessions which means taxpayers are bailing out property owners
- The massive overspend on social welfare and the endless "entitlements" of part of the population
- The endless focus on banks which allows leftist politicians distract us from a 20% budget deficit
- The excessive taxation of people on higher incomes and the under taxation of those on lower incomes
- The tiny taxes on property and the massive taxes on incomes

But I suspect that's not what the "take to the streets" brigade want to "get angry" about.

ardmacha

The public sector unions striving to maintain salaries

That's outrageous, a union trying to ensure that workers paid for providing a service. Get out and protest immediately.

Elmer Blooker

Austeritynerd wrote: »

Considering both Ireland and Greece received IMF/ECB/EU bailouts with tough austerity conditions attached, it is easy to understand why people took to the streets in protest.
-> I have examined both bailouts, both were strict, all encompassing and extreme.
What I fail to see is WHY there is such a large difference in protests mobilization in both countries. It seems people protest in Greece, but do not bother in Ireland. I have difficulty finding a reason for such differences.

There has always been a very strong far right in Greece dating back to the Nazi occupation and the Civil War against Communists immediately following WW2. The country was run by a right wing military dictatorship up to the late 60s.
The extreme right is on the rise again taking advantage of the recession and its automatically presumed that protesters on the streets are leftists which is not the case. Thankfully Ireland is more politically stable.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/18/greece-far-right-golden-dawn

old hippy

sarumite wrote: »

Complaining about a problem is not the same as solving a problem. So we kick out the people in power and replace them with a new group of people in power....then what? What change is going to come?

How defeatist.

old hippy

hmmm wrote: »

First we need to decide what we're protesting about.

I'm happy to hit the streets to protest:
- The public sector unions striving to maintain salaries while services are cut
- The lack of repossessions which means taxpayers are bailing out property owners
- The massive overspend on social welfare and the endless "entitlements" of part of the population
- The endless focus on banks which allows leftist politicians distract us from a 20% budget deficit
- The excessive taxation of people on higher incomes and the under taxation of those on lower incomes
- The tiny taxes on property and the massive taxes on incomes

But I suspect that's not what the "take to the streets" brigade want to "get angry" about.

Quite right. Your way means more misery for the marginalised, those hit worst by the recession.

But that's always been the way of Thatcher's children.

jester77

Ireland have suffered relatively little pain compared to the Greeks. Social welfare is higher than the wages people receive in most countries around the world. If you are struggling with mortgage in Ireland then you don't need to pay as there are little to no consequences for non-payment. Until people start getting evicted or can't put food on the table then there will be little in terms of protests in Ireland.

sarumite

old hippy wrote: »

How defeatist.

Doesn't actually answer my questions. I am quite optimistic about Irelands prospects. That doesn't mean I need to support protest for the sake of protest.

old hippy

sarumite wrote: »

Doesn't actually answer my questions. I am quite optimistic about Irelands prospects. That doesn't mean I need to support protest for the sake of protest.

Complaining/voicing your dissent and yes, even protesting is the first step to identifying there is a problem. Solving it is in part, people putting politicians under pressure.

hmmm

old hippy wrote: »

Quite right. Your way means more misery for the marginalised, those hit worst by the recession.

But that's always been the way of Thatcher's children.

Your insults have just made my point for me. You want people to get angry and protest, but none of us will be able to agree what we're protesting about. I'm not willing to join any "anti austerity" protest led by union leaders on 100+ grand, and attended only by very well paid public sector workers who are quite willing to sell out any new joiners to the PS as long as they maintain their status.

dissed doc

ardmacha wrote: »

There was discussion of this on the radio this morning.
Firstly, social cohesion is greater in Ireland.
But also it isn't half as bad here as in Greece.

Social cohesion isn't greater in Ireland, but half the country is on stable benefits which are largely untouched.

The only people in Ireland who could legitimately protest are probably at work paying 58% tax, and getting no access to medical cards or any other "services".

sarumite

old hippy wrote: »

Complaining/voicing your dissent and yes, even protesting is the first step to identifying there is a problem. Solving it is in part, people putting politicians under pressure.

Surely protest comes after people have identified a problem. I mean why would people protest if they haven't already identified the problem that caused them to protest in the first place.

Count Dooku

old hippy wrote: »

Complaining/voicing your dissent and yes, even protesting is the first step to identifying there is a problem. Solving it is in part, people putting politicians under pressure.

It wont be much pressure for politicians if there is no reasonable alternative for them. They just will laugh and continue to do what they want

View

sarumite wrote: »

Surely protest comes after people have identified a problem. I mean why would people protest if they haven't already identified the problem that caused them to protest in the first place.

No, no.

You protest first. At the end of the protest you can then ask people what it was all about - then you know the problem.

After that you vote for different people from the exact same party as last time.

You can then be disappointed all over again when their solutions turn out to be the same as before.

golfwallah

Austeritynerd wrote: »

Considering both Ireland and Greece received IMF/ECB/EU bailouts with tough austerity conditions attached, it is easy to understand why people took to the streets in protest.
-> I have examined both bailouts, both were strict, all encompassing and extreme.
What I fail to see is WHY there is such a large difference in protests mobilization in both countries. It seems people protest in Greece, but do not bother in Ireland. I have difficulty finding a reason for such differences.

There are big differences. In Ireland, most protests are of the quiet variety and consequences relatively soft. Think public service cuts (soft consequences for staff – no compulsory redundancies, Croke Park, Haddington Road Agreements), growing unemployed (generous social welfare with lax conditions), defaulting mortgage holders (few repossessions), etc.

And the last big street protests and public furores in Ireland, as I recall it, were about issues like the Household Charge and Right to Life. Even these were quite genteel affairs, with tea and scones in Buswells Hotel opposite Leinster House afterwards.

Greece is quite a different kettle of fish with real austerity cuts in public staff numbers, cuts in social welfare and mortgage defaulters – well let’s not go there. These are just a few examples of why Greeks not only have protests but also riots. Greek people have tolerated a very corrupt political system, not done enough to change it it and are now suffering the consequences.

Our political system isn’t perfect, could be a lot better. Even though most didn’t think it at the time, FF did screw up during the boom (ably assisted by an ineffective opposition that is now in power). Bad and all as our politicians are, they have supported investment in education / infrastructure and encouraged inward foreign direct investment. There's still a long way to go but - protests are not the order of the day as long as our version of austerity means most people can put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads.

old hippy

hmmm wrote: »

Your insults have just made my point for me. You want people to get angry and protest, but none of us will be able to agree what we're protesting about. I'm not willing to join any "anti austerity" protest led by union leaders on 100+ grand, and attended only by very well paid public sector workers who are quite willing to sell out any new joiners to the PS as long as they maintain their status.

What insults? You speak with the voice of a Thatcherite with all the cliches about unions, you wish to make marginalised people even more marginalised.

I tend to find those who speak like yourself to be comfortably well off with nothing pressing to protest about unless it's people on the dole etc.

Scofflaw

old hippy wrote: »

What insults? You speak with the voice of a Thatcherite with all the cliches about unions, you wish to make marginalised people even more marginalised.

I tend to find those who speak like yourself to be comfortably well off with nothing pressing to protest about unless it's people on the dole etc.

Perhaps you can show us, first, some peer-reviewed evidence that these two things are generally connected, and then, how you know that every one of the anonymous posters here fit the description in question.

If you can't do that, I suggest you stop attempting to argue by ad hominems and address points raised in a substantive way.

moderately,
Scofflaw

old hippy

Scofflaw wrote: »

Perhaps you can show us, first, some peer-reviewed evidence that these two things are generally connected, and then, how you know that every one of the anonymous posters here fit the description in question.

If you can't do that, I suggest you stop attempting to argue by ad hominems and address points raised in a substantive way.

moderately,
Scofflaw

My bad. As a union member, I find throwaway comments on union leaders and those who march to be quite annoying and thus I reply in a similar fashion.

Scofflaw

old hippy wrote: »

My bad. As a union member, I find throwaway comments on union leaders and those who march to be quite annoying and thus I reply in a similar fashion.

...and two wrongs don't make a right. On the internet, they tend to simply make an unedifying flame war. From a moddng point of view, the difference is that people are expressing an opinion on "union leaders and those who march", which are comments not aimed at you personally, while you are responding by attacking them personally.

More generally, there is a fairly widespread perception of union leaders as 'fat cats' and 'those who march' as likely to march without any clear aim beyond the marching. If you feel that that's inaccurate, I'd say it's up to you to address why and how that impression is inaccurate, which you won't do by labeling everyone with that opinion as "comfortably well-off Thatcherites".

cordially,
Scofflaw

old hippy

Scofflaw wrote: »

...and two wrongs don't make a right. On the internet, they tend to simply make an unedifying flame war. From a moddng point of view, the difference is that people are expressing an opinion on "union leaders and those who march", which are comments not aimed at you personally, while you are responding by attacking them personally.

More generally, there is a fairly widespread perception of union leaders as 'fat cats' and 'those who march' as likely to march without any clear aim beyond the marching. If you feel that that's inaccurate, I'd say it's up to you to address why and how that impression is inaccurate, which you won't do by labeling everyone with that opinion as "comfortably well-off Thatcherites".

cordially,
Scofflaw

It's a fair cop, guv. Apologies for the gross stereotyping on my part.

Idbatterim

Your insults have just made my point for me. You want people to get angry and protest, but none of us will be able to agree what we're protesting about. I'm not willing to join any "anti austerity" protest led by union leaders on 100+ grand, and attended only by very well paid public sector workers who are quite willing to sell out any new joiners to the PS as long as they maintain their status.

Nail, hammer and head! There is simply no way I'm ust matching for the sake of it or marching against austerity! what is they bloody point, there is no alternative, instead of the union leaders, Ps workers shouting no no bloody no like Ian Paisley, I think we had better look for solution to problems, than pretending they dont exist...

murphaph

Idbatterim wrote: »

Nail, hammer and head! There is simply no way I'm ust matching for the sake of it or marching against austerity! what is they bloody point, there is no alternative, instead of the union leaders, Ps workers shouting no no bloody no like Ian Paisley, I think we had better look for solution to problems, than pretending they dont exist...

Indeed. I'm reminded of the endless marching in the UK in the 1970's that did nothing in the end but accelerate the death of large swathes of British manufacturing.

Thatcher gets all the blame for this of course but ultimately it was a failure of leadership by the unions and indeed the bosses. Pigheadedness on both sides and nothing else.

Zubeneschamali

Idbatterim wrote: »

there is no alternative

What we have is not a lack of alternatives, it's a broad consensus that the path we're on is the least horrible one. If there was an appetite for real change, we'd have actual left wing and right wing politics. Instead we have a mush in the middle, mostly distinguished by personalities, tradition, and 90 year old Civil War divisions.

AlekSmart

murphaph wrote: »

Indeed. I'm reminded of the endless marching in the UK in the 1970's that did nothing in the end but accelerate the death of large swathes of British manufacturing.

Thatcher gets all the blame for this of course but ultimately it was a failure of leadership by the unions and indeed the bosses. Pigheadedness on both sides and nothing else.

I had occasion to meet three young returnees from yesterdays Leinster House protestations as they made their way home last night.

It appears one of their member had recieved a thump from a Garda and was mulling over her options,including the Ombudsman avenue....however what prompted me to engage in conversation with them was a loudly put question as to "Why were there not more on the march".

I ventured an opinion that the reason was clear enough to me,in that we simply do not have anywhere near enough oppressive,imposed hardship and poverty on our population to merit the destruction of the system that supports it.

The Irish may be many things,but by and large they're reasonably well able to recognize a good-thing when they see it,and as a result remain largely unwilling to bite-off the hand thats still doing a fairly good job of feeding them.

Real Oppression,Real State suppression,Real poverty,Actual poverty,an inability to feed and clothe one's family or keep a roof over one's head will most definitely bring people out onto the streets in REAL Mass Protest,as has been demonstrated over centuries,with the the Fall of the Eastern Bloc European States being the most recent big-ticket example.

However,what we do remain true to,is a belief across both Government and Opposition sides that even after the "Crash",we can still continue pretty much as before,with nobody actually having to endure a significant reduction in their living standards.

One of the more accurate pronouncements of Brian Cowen,in the dying days of his rule was a statement that we were looking at a general fall in Living Standards of c.10%.....My belief is that we have'nt achieved that as yet,and may well not,if we can continue to string things along.

The process we are currently going through can be described as Austerity,but by any objective reasoning we remain far from being a poverty-stricken,oppressively governed State,and don't we damn well know it.

Rightwing

Well we got some protests yesterday, I still can't see what they achieve though, apart from a massive inconvience to others. :rolleyes:

Eight Ball

The Irish establishment have realised that if you keep the two sectors of society who protest the most happy (unemployed and PS) then protesting is kept to a minimum. High PS and social welfare has kept the protests at bay whilst everyone else is to busy working two jobs to keep a roof over their heads to bother.

Classic politics that the Irish fall for time and again.

munchkin_utd

great post Alex.
Ireland is in a bit of a shambles but if anyone questions why folks arent marching like in Greece, then they havent a clue how bad Greece is.
As I said previously, people are literally dying because of lack of availability of medicine. Im not talking about lack of availability of cheap medicine or free medicine. The medicine isnt there in the chemist shops to buy for people with stuff like high blood pressure or heart complaints and relatives abroad are buying it and sending it back.
And thats aside from having to pay for the medicine or doctor or hospital if you do get sick. Even if youre destitute theres no subsidised or free medicine like in ireland.
IIRC, dole is zero after the initial period!
Pensioners are being taken from old folks homes so that their kids and grand kids can live off their meagre pension that otherwise would cover the old folks home cost.

So literally if you have no job, after a while you cannot pay rent or buy food.
You literally starve and are homeless.
Seriously, compare that to ireland where dole is very generous (double the german figure for instance), plus you get rent allowance, plus kids allowance, plus if your lucky other one off things through the social welfare officer.
In greece, you get not a cent (if you arent already dead from lack of food or medicine).
And THATS why people are protesting there and are happy with their lot in Ireland.

johnr1

Main differences I see are that 1; The scum out "protesting" yesterday here, are from the sector of society least affected by the economic collapse, and 2; that there is popular support for protests in Greece, (reasonable or not) whereas here, those rabid scum have none.

My Gf sat on a bus from 5.30 to 8 pm yesterday evening having gone to work though ill, - paying her taxes to support these vermin. I was in the other end of the country -as I have been most days and nights since April, also ill, also working, also paying my taxes to support these aforementioned scum of the planet.

Maybe just as well, - I'll probably be banned for this post but I'd now be in jail had I been sitting on o Connell bridge yesterday evening as id have driven over a few of them.

In sincere anger.

John.


.

uncle_mick

Eight Ball wrote: »

The Irish establishment have realised that if you keep the two sectors of society who protest the most happy (unemployed and PS) then protesting is kept to a minimum. High PS and social welfare has kept the protests at bay whilst everyone else is to busy working two jobs to keep a roof over their heads to bother.

Classic politics that the Irish fall for time and again.

pensioners have been completely shielded and they are the most powerfull voting bloc along with public sector workers , the rest of the population on welfare have experienced significant cuts , hence why so many young people have left the country

this is of course an incredibly short sighted policy , its not pensioners who will get this country back on its feet , we are experiencing a serious brain drain at the moment , educating our finest to build Australia and canadas economy