Differences between Irish and Greek protesters?

old hippy

Scofflaw wrote: »

...and two wrongs don't make a right. On the internet, they tend to simply make an unedifying flame war. From a moddng point of view, the difference is that people are expressing an opinion on "union leaders and those who march", which are comments not aimed at you personally, while you are responding by attacking them personally.

More generally, there is a fairly widespread perception of union leaders as 'fat cats' and 'those who march' as likely to march without any clear aim beyond the marching. If you feel that that's inaccurate, I'd say it's up to you to address why and how that impression is inaccurate, which you won't do by labeling everyone with that opinion as "comfortably well-off Thatcherites".

cordially,
Scofflaw

It's a fair cop, guv. Apologies for the gross stereotyping on my part.

Idbatterim

Your insults have just made my point for me. You want people to get angry and protest, but none of us will be able to agree what we're protesting about. I'm not willing to join any "anti austerity" protest led by union leaders on 100+ grand, and attended only by very well paid public sector workers who are quite willing to sell out any new joiners to the PS as long as they maintain their status.

Nail, hammer and head! There is simply no way I'm ust matching for the sake of it or marching against austerity! what is they bloody point, there is no alternative, instead of the union leaders, Ps workers shouting no no bloody no like Ian Paisley, I think we had better look for solution to problems, than pretending they dont exist...

murphaph

Idbatterim wrote: »

Nail, hammer and head! There is simply no way I'm ust matching for the sake of it or marching against austerity! what is they bloody point, there is no alternative, instead of the union leaders, Ps workers shouting no no bloody no like Ian Paisley, I think we had better look for solution to problems, than pretending they dont exist...

Indeed. I'm reminded of the endless marching in the UK in the 1970's that did nothing in the end but accelerate the death of large swathes of British manufacturing.

Thatcher gets all the blame for this of course but ultimately it was a failure of leadership by the unions and indeed the bosses. Pigheadedness on both sides and nothing else.

Zubeneschamali

Idbatterim wrote: »

there is no alternative

What we have is not a lack of alternatives, it's a broad consensus that the path we're on is the least horrible one. If there was an appetite for real change, we'd have actual left wing and right wing politics. Instead we have a mush in the middle, mostly distinguished by personalities, tradition, and 90 year old Civil War divisions.

AlekSmart

murphaph wrote: »

Indeed. I'm reminded of the endless marching in the UK in the 1970's that did nothing in the end but accelerate the death of large swathes of British manufacturing.

Thatcher gets all the blame for this of course but ultimately it was a failure of leadership by the unions and indeed the bosses. Pigheadedness on both sides and nothing else.

I had occasion to meet three young returnees from yesterdays Leinster House protestations as they made their way home last night.

It appears one of their member had recieved a thump from a Garda and was mulling over her options,including the Ombudsman avenue....however what prompted me to engage in conversation with them was a loudly put question as to "Why were there not more on the march".

I ventured an opinion that the reason was clear enough to me,in that we simply do not have anywhere near enough oppressive,imposed hardship and poverty on our population to merit the destruction of the system that supports it.

The Irish may be many things,but by and large they're reasonably well able to recognize a good-thing when they see it,and as a result remain largely unwilling to bite-off the hand thats still doing a fairly good job of feeding them.

Real Oppression,Real State suppression,Real poverty,Actual poverty,an inability to feed and clothe one's family or keep a roof over one's head will most definitely bring people out onto the streets in REAL Mass Protest,as has been demonstrated over centuries,with the the Fall of the Eastern Bloc European States being the most recent big-ticket example.

However,what we do remain true to,is a belief across both Government and Opposition sides that even after the "Crash",we can still continue pretty much as before,with nobody actually having to endure a significant reduction in their living standards.

One of the more accurate pronouncements of Brian Cowen,in the dying days of his rule was a statement that we were looking at a general fall in Living Standards of c.10%.....My belief is that we have'nt achieved that as yet,and may well not,if we can continue to string things along.

The process we are currently going through can be described as Austerity,but by any objective reasoning we remain far from being a poverty-stricken,oppressively governed State,and don't we damn well know it.

Rightwing

Well we got some protests yesterday, I still can't see what they achieve though, apart from a massive inconvience to others. :rolleyes:

Eight Ball

The Irish establishment have realised that if you keep the two sectors of society who protest the most happy (unemployed and PS) then protesting is kept to a minimum. High PS and social welfare has kept the protests at bay whilst everyone else is to busy working two jobs to keep a roof over their heads to bother.

Classic politics that the Irish fall for time and again.

munchkin_utd

great post Alex.
Ireland is in a bit of a shambles but if anyone questions why folks arent marching like in Greece, then they havent a clue how bad Greece is.
As I said previously, people are literally dying because of lack of availability of medicine. Im not talking about lack of availability of cheap medicine or free medicine. The medicine isnt there in the chemist shops to buy for people with stuff like high blood pressure or heart complaints and relatives abroad are buying it and sending it back.
And thats aside from having to pay for the medicine or doctor or hospital if you do get sick. Even if youre destitute theres no subsidised or free medicine like in ireland.
IIRC, dole is zero after the initial period!
Pensioners are being taken from old folks homes so that their kids and grand kids can live off their meagre pension that otherwise would cover the old folks home cost.

So literally if you have no job, after a while you cannot pay rent or buy food.
You literally starve and are homeless.
Seriously, compare that to ireland where dole is very generous (double the german figure for instance), plus you get rent allowance, plus kids allowance, plus if your lucky other one off things through the social welfare officer.
In greece, you get not a cent (if you arent already dead from lack of food or medicine).
And THATS why people are protesting there and are happy with their lot in Ireland.

johnr1

Main differences I see are that 1; The scum out "protesting" yesterday here, are from the sector of society least affected by the economic collapse, and 2; that there is popular support for protests in Greece, (reasonable or not) whereas here, those rabid scum have none.

My Gf sat on a bus from 5.30 to 8 pm yesterday evening having gone to work though ill, - paying her taxes to support these vermin. I was in the other end of the country -as I have been most days and nights since April, also ill, also working, also paying my taxes to support these aforementioned scum of the planet.

Maybe just as well, - I'll probably be banned for this post but I'd now be in jail had I been sitting on o Connell bridge yesterday evening as id have driven over a few of them.

In sincere anger.

John.


.

uncle_mick

Eight Ball wrote: »

The Irish establishment have realised that if you keep the two sectors of society who protest the most happy (unemployed and PS) then protesting is kept to a minimum. High PS and social welfare has kept the protests at bay whilst everyone else is to busy working two jobs to keep a roof over their heads to bother.

Classic politics that the Irish fall for time and again.

pensioners have been completely shielded and they are the most powerfull voting bloc along with public sector workers , the rest of the population on welfare have experienced significant cuts , hence why so many young people have left the country

this is of course an incredibly short sighted policy , its not pensioners who will get this country back on its feet , we are experiencing a serious brain drain at the moment , educating our finest to build Australia and canadas economy

SpaceTime

I don't think you can really compare Irish and Greek politics either.

Ireland's system hasn't melted down into complete chaos, it's still working.
The crisis hasn't blown out of all control and gone completely mad like Greece and some things have stablised.

We don't have a very strong conflict between factions of the extreme left and right, even our most 'extreme' left and 'extreme' right would be absolute centrist pragmatists compared to Greece or many other countries.

There's huge social cohesion here and huge political cohesion too.

The other issue is that the PR-STV voting system gives people very serious power over TDs and I do think that the back benchers are living in fear of the electorate which is no harm.

If you're in France for example, the democratic system historically gave you a choice of a very powerful executive president with a 7-year term!! He was practically a dictator for that period of time and it wasn't unusual to push through really unpopular policies. This is why there's a huge tradition of taking to the streets in France as people don't have the same level of access to politics as they do in Ireland in many respects. The presidential term only became 5 years in 2002!

Bear in mind that France's 1968 strikes were bordering on civil war level! There was a complete state of conflict between a large % of the population and the state. That's really not something that's happened in Ireland and if it did, the government would pretty much automatically fall, long before it came to that level of extremes, due the design of the system.

On top of that, I know we say we didn't punish the system for screwing up, but we decimated Fianna Fail in the last elections and I think that's something that both released a lot of anger in the correct way and also sent a very powerful message to the political system that it hadn't really been given to that point - i.e. screw us over and you will be facing political oblivion.

I know it's a bit annoying to see FF support on the rise again, but I still think that we did actually send a very powerful message in that election.

We do need pressure put on, but I don't think we need violent chaotic protest.

I mean, the Gardai for example are very much on the same side as the rest of us in this! Why would anyone want to be rioting against them!? They're the very same people who are facing station closures, pay cuts, longer hours, recruitment freezes etc.

A lot of countries on the continent are *much* more authoritarian "us" and "them" and there's heavy policing and all that kind of thing.
Ireland's more about consensus power, which can be a mess sometimes, but it's definitely not as prone to blowing up into all out conflict as certain other systems are.

I think the Government and everyone else knows that there's a few levels of Irish political annoyance:

1: Slight moaning/groaning - Government OK
2: Loads of people ringing Joe Duffy, angry posts on forums, bitching about them in the pub - Government starting to get into hot water.
3: Back benchers jump ship / go independent.
4: TDs not being invited in for tea / being snubbed / given out to at bars : Government collapses.

We're about level 2.5 at the moment.

The issue in Ireland is that once the Government loses political consensus (no matter how flawed that consensus might be) it's gone. That's definitely not the case in a lot of other countries.

munchkin_utd

uncle_mick wrote: »

pensioners have been completely shielded and they are the most powerfull voting bloc along with public sector workers , the rest of the population on welfare have experienced significant cuts , hence why so many young people have left the country
<snip>

+1

my folks (pensioners) in ireland are better off then myself and the wife in germany, both working paying german taxes and earning more each than the irish or german average wage.
Like the 30somethings in ireland crippled by mortgages, its the outgoings which are killing us. Between taxes, rent, car, travel, and household expenses.

My parents have no rent or mortgage (so automatically 1000euro+ a month up over a young working person!) have medical card, phone, electricity, bus pass, tax free state pensions (incl a small uk state one one) and tax free private pension.
The ONLY cut they have suffered is the loss of a free passport!
But the old free passport is still good for their multiple foreign holidays per year so they are grand! Thanks to the fact that the irish government is that good to pensioners, they'll be on their third foreign spin next week.

Its actually a joke that its THAT cushy for irish pensioners and in Greece there are people literally, physically dying for lack of food or medicine.
Indeed, the irish pensioners shouldn't be made suffer and thats not what im suggesting, but is a HIGHER tax free allowance than working people justified for instance?

SpaceTime

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Its actually a joke that its THAT cushy for irish pensioners and in Greece there are people literally, physically dying for lack of food or medicine.
Indeed, the irish pensioners shouldn't be made suffer and thats not what im suggesting, but is a HIGHER tax free allowance than working people justified for instance?

I agree with you on the pensioner vote lobby and the fact that the public service have been to a large degree sheltered from the worst of it. I think the worst aspect of it is that the cuts that have been inflicted on the public sector tend to result in people maintaining incomes while services are cut and front line staff are put under increasing pressure. They would be better off taking a more holistic look at the costs and hitting the higher and middle levels much more in terms of both salaries and number reductions.

It's up to the people in the middle of the crisis however to start coming together and putting some political pressure on. You can't really blame the public sector or the pensioners for coming together and lobbying to protect their interests. The rest of us need to do the same!

However, I don't think that you can compare the situation in Ireland and Greece directly. The underlying economics are pretty starkly different. They just both toppled because the financial crisis triggered a reality check but for quite different reasons.

The Greek situation is just vastly worse for a whole variety of reasons. Their economy had been living in an absolute parallel universe where a huge % of jobs were being created and paid for by out of control state borrowing and direct state spending. Ireland's situation is more of a classic (albeit extreme) housing bubble in a very small, self-contained market.

The underlying Greek economy is also extremely weak. There's very little to build upon to get things back on track. Where as Ireland's real (non-bubble) economy was very strong and we had a massive construction bubble built on top of that.

Ireland also had astonishingly high levels of growth during the bubble period which meant that when it did hit the bust we were falling from a very extreme high level to a fairly average level in terms of GDP per capita and spending power. Yeah, it hurts and it's unpleasant, but it didn't leave us starving on the streets.

Greece was only at what you would consider normal EU levels during its bubble period. So, when it crashed it really crashed and basic things stopped being possible for a lot of people and things like access to medicines became an issue which is crazy.

Ireland's workforce and range of industries is also far more 'growth-ready' than Greece and it's all geared towards high-tech industries and export growth where as Greece is hugely dependent on tourism and low value services.
There's a hugely different level of education, a hugely different skill set and much more flexibility and adaptability in the way we do things here.

Ireland's underlying pre-bubble economy never went away. It was buried under the hype of speculator nonsense largely and that's what's still driving our exports and keeping us somewhat afloat.

I would also add that despite all of it, aspects of our public administration and its ability to use public bodies and private sector links to pull in investment is literally world-class. The success of IDA in particular is really quite amazing.

There's a huge state and private sector apparatus in Ireland that really gets out there and pulls investment in pulling and tapping every contact that we can get access to.

If you've ever been on an Irish trade mission you'll see what I mean. It's actually very reassuring to see how the whole thing operates and I would be left with a lot more optimism about what can be achieved to get us back to some level of normality at least again in the next few years.

I just think there's a huge sense that Ireland's able to pull out all the stops, pull in every contact, every lead and just get on with it!

Yeah, there were major problems with political corruption, regulatory capture, overly-close proximity between politics and the banks and the developers, but I think there are still hugely positive aspects to the political system here too.
There's a fair bit of rot still needs to be cut out, but there's also a hell of a lot of people with a drive to get the place back on track and I think that's largely what has taken us out of the perception of being lumped in with the Southern European countries in terms of investor perception.

....

I just think we should be organising more and putting pressure on where it's needed. We don't need to resort to violence on the streets to do that though. Nobody's actually stopping us putting pressure on!

People need to just get organised if they've an issue to lobby on.

ardmacha

My parents have no rent or mortgage (so automatically 1000euro+ a month up over a young working person!) have medical card, phone, electricity, bus pass, tax free state pensions (incl a small uk state one one) and tax free private pension.

Pensions are not tax free any more than any other income.

I think the worst aspect of it is that the cuts that have been inflicted on the public sector tend to result in people maintaining incomes while services are cut and front line staff are put under increasing pressure. They would be better off taking a more holistic look at the costs and hitting the higher and middle levels much more in terms of both salaries and number reductions.

How on earth could people maintain incomes when they have been cut 3 times and the higher and middle levels, who were not significantly overpaid relative to similar private sector workers, cut by 20-30%?

uncle_mick

SpaceTime wrote: »

I agree with you on the pensioner vote lobby and the fact that the public service have been to a large degree sheltered from the worst of it. I think the worst aspect of it is that the cuts that have been inflicted on the public sector tend to result in people maintaining incomes while services are cut and front line staff are put under increasing pressure. They would be better off taking a more holistic look at the costs and hitting the higher and middle levels much more in terms of both salaries and number reductions.

It's up to the people in the middle of the crisis however to start coming together and putting some political pressure on. You can't really blame the public sector or the pensioners for coming together and lobbying to protect their interests. The rest of us need to do the same!

However, I don't think that you can compare the situation in Ireland and Greece directly. The underlying economics are pretty starkly different. They just both toppled because the financial crisis triggered a reality check but for quite different reasons.

The Greek situation is just vastly worse for a whole variety of reasons. Their economy had been living in an absolute parallel universe where a huge % of jobs were being created and paid for by out of control state borrowing and direct state spending. Ireland's situation is more of a classic (albeit extreme) housing bubble in a very small, self-contained market.

The underlying Greek economy is also extremely weak. There's very little to build upon to get things back on track. Where as Ireland's real (non-bubble) economy was very strong and we had a massive construction bubble built on top of that.

Ireland also had astonishingly high levels of growth during the bubble period which meant that when it did hit the bust we were falling from a very extreme high level to a fairly average level in terms of GDP per capita and spending power. Yeah, it hurts and it's unpleasant, but it didn't leave us starving on the streets.

Greece was only at what you would consider normal EU levels during its bubble period. So, when it crashed it really crashed and basic things stopped being possible for a lot of people and things like access to medicines became an issue which is crazy.

Ireland's workforce and range of industries is also far more 'growth-ready' than Greece and it's all geared towards high-tech industries and export growth where as Greece is hugely dependent on tourism and low value services.
There's a hugely different level of education, a hugely different skill set and much more flexibility and adaptability in the way we do things here.

Ireland's underlying pre-bubble economy never went away. It was buried under the hype of speculator nonsense largely and that's what's still driving our exports and keeping us somewhat afloat.

I would also add that despite all of it, aspects of our public administration and its ability to use public bodies and private sector links to pull in investment is literally world-class. The success of IDA in particular is really quite amazing.

There's a huge state and private sector apparatus in Ireland that really gets out there and pulls investment in pulling and tapping every contact that we can get access to.

If you've ever been on an Irish trade mission you'll see what I mean. It's actually very reassuring to see how the whole thing operates and I would be left with a lot more optimism about what can be achieved to get us back to some level of normality at least again in the next few years.

I just think there's a huge sense that Ireland's able to pull out all the stops, pull in every contact, every lead and just get on with it!

Yeah, there were major problems with political corruption, regulatory capture, overly-close proximity between politics and the banks and the developers, but I think there are still hugely positive aspects to the political system here too.
There's a fair bit of rot still needs to be cut out, but there's also a hell of a lot of people with a drive to get the place back on track and I think that's largely what has taken us out of the perception of being lumped in with the Southern European countries in terms of investor perception.

....

I just think we should be organising more and putting pressure on where it's needed. We don't need to resort to violence on the streets to do that though. Nobody's actually stopping us putting pressure on!

People need to just get organised if they've an issue to lobby on.

I meant the public sector were politically powerfull in the same way the pensioners are , the public sector unlike the pensioners have had cuts however , especially new entrants who are on pretty poor wages , teachers , nurses etc , more senior ps workers pulled up the ladder and unions signed off on the arrangement

chopper6

Scofflaw wrote: »

More generally, there is a fairly widespread perception of union leaders as 'fat cats' and 'those who march' as likely to march without any clear aim beyond the marching.

Widespread amongst whom? The rabid anti PS posters on boards.ie?

I can think of 300,000+ people who would disagree.

But then if you dont actually work in the PS it's alright to make generalistaions about them.

uncle_mick

chopper6 wrote: »

Widespread amongst whom? The rabid anti PS posters on boards.ie?

I can think of 300,000+ people who would disagree.

But then if you dont actually work in the PS it's alright to make generalistaions about them.

many in the public sector itself view union chiefs as insider establishment trough swillers

chopper6

uncle_mick wrote: »

many in the public sector itself view union chiefs as insider establishment trough swillers

So we have a "perception" and "many"...what happened to facts?

uncle_mick

chopper6 wrote: »

So we have a "perception" and "many"...what happened to facts?

what facts are you referring to ?

munchkin_utd

ardmacha wrote: »

Pensions are not tax free any more than any other income.

thats splitting hairs to be honest. Pension income is indeed just money same as any other income, but the pensioners themselves are special.

The over 65s have a different tax regime where their income under 36,000 for a couple is tax and PRSI free and even when over the threshold theres a different method of calculation for it than a normal worker

Its so cushy (even before the other benefits) that I'll be definitely moving back to Ireland to spend my twilight years if I haven't moved already by that stage.
I'd be paying tax in Germany as a pensioner the EXACT SAME as any other working person, which means from 5000euro upwards - and theres no list of bonuses. And rather than get medical for free i'd be paying 15% of my pension by staying in germany!!

If you were to list the benefits pensioners recieve and compare germany and ireland blindfolded you'd not be able to figure which country is bankrupt and in an austerity programme ran by the IMF and which one is has historical low unemployment and is the economic powerhouse of europe!!

Geuze

ardmacha wrote: »

Pensions are not tax free any more than any other income.

QUOTE]

Note that people over 65 do enjoy two tax reliefs that people under 65 don't get.

Idbatterim

thats splitting hairs to be honest. Pension income is indeed just money same as any other income, but the pensioners themselves are special.

The over 65s have a different tax regime where their income under 36,000 for a couple is tax and PRSI free and even when over the threshold theres a different method of calculation for it than a normal worker

Its so cushy (even before the other benefits) that I'll be definitely moving back to Ireland to spend my twilight years if I haven't moved already by that stage.
I'd be paying tax in Germany as a pensioner the EXACT SAME as any other working person, which means from 5000euro upwards - and theres no list of bonuses. And rather than get medical for free i'd be paying 15% of my pension by staying in germany!!

If you were to list the benefits pensioners receive and compare germany and ireland blindfolded you'd not be able to figure which country is bankrupt and in an austerity programme ran by the IMF and which one is has historical low unemployment and is the economic powerhouse of europe!!

totally agree, my dad is german living here and has a German and Irish pension, think he gets about E80 a week from Germany (was based on what he paid into the german system) the Irish one along with all of the benefits in unbelievable. The problem is, I agree with the public service comments and also I'd say were all in agreement over welfare requiring a total overhaul. But I think its political suicide to go after the pensioners, at least it would be political suicide to go after the core weekly pension. There are only so many large vested interest groups that you can go after, best thing they can do is leave it and even when a recovery comes about, leave it and let inflation eat away at it and reduce it to a more reasonable level...

Over the next few years,any budget surpluses should be used to pay down national debt, invest in capital expenditure, undoing some of the cuts to the vulnerable (by this I mean those who actually are vulnerable), i.e. disabled etc and lower the insane marginal rate of tax IMO...

ardmacha

The main injustice with the pension is that someone who has paid little or nothing in gets a payment only marginally less than someone who had paid for 40+ years. This does not happen in Germany.

The other reason Germany is not so generous to pensioners is that it has more them and more to come.

Good loser

Re the Greeks. I remember - hopefully correctly - in a major reform about 12 months ago large cuts for the civil service were proposed (except for Finance). The Minister at the last minute slipped in a provision that DOF were to be treated as the other civil servants.

This was apparently not spotted for a while and when it was, at the last minute, all hell broke loose. Result was the Minister gave in and Finance officials (about 1600 people) were exempted.

Open to correction on that.

maninasia

sore_nads wrote: »

germans are less soft headed , irish people subscribe to the notion that as soon as someone reaches the ages of sixty six , the instantaneously become poverty stricken and inherently vulnerable , germans tend to to indulge in such trite sentimentality

In Ireland the biggest divide is between the older people and the younger people. The older people have been well looked after in the main, the younger people have been told to deal with it or emigrate.

spank_inferno

I agree.... the wealth transfer from those under 40 to those over 60 is enormous.

Zubeneschamali

maninasia wrote: »

The older people have been well looked after in the main, the younger people have been told to deal with it or emigrate.

Absolutely! No-one back in the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, or 80s ever had to emigrate. Spoiled gits. And if they did, they could just catch a cheap Ryanair flight home for the weekend anytime they liked.

SpaceTime

Biggest issue in Ireland is that the property bubble transferred one generation's wealth and borrowing ability to a small % of the older generation.

A lot of older people were able to cash in on high house prices

Before anyone says it, yeah some of them may have also lost their shirts on investments or helping their kids etc but many just made a very big profit on homes built and bought in the previous decades which were sold at the peak of the market

There's also another issue. The generation coming up who missed the bunker and people who didn't get into the property market who may be in their 20s - 30s because they were just prevented by circumstance or were savvy to the impending collapse are going to be much wealthier than the mortgage to the hilt lost generation.

I can see a situation where we end up with a middle aged lost generation who will be a lot worse off than their younger colleagues and peers and also a lot worse off than the older generations.

It'll be an unusual few decades ahead!

steve_wonder

maninasia wrote: »

In Ireland the biggest divide is between the older people and the younger people. The older people have been well looked after in the main, the younger people have been told to deal with it or emigrate.

and that will continue to be the case until young ( er ) people cop on to the fact that the elderly are in the main , well off in this country , politicans spoil the elderly because they know they have near universal support to do so from all age groups

people need to stop voting against their own interests , the elderly are not vulnerable , they are extremely well organised politically , why do you think so many QUANGO,s represent them , its because they have money and power

sarumite

steve_wonder wrote: »

why do you think so many QUANGO,s represent them , its because they have money and power

Which quangos specifically represent them?

Idbatterim

not a quango, but age action ireland seem to be excellent at what they do! taken from their website!

"About Age Action

Age Action is a charity which promotes positive ageing and better policies and services for older people. Working with, and on behalf of, older people we aim to make Ireland the best place in the world in which to grow older."

I'd say they have already achieved their goal!

steve_wonder

sarumite wrote: »

Which quangos specifically represent them?

age action Ireland

older and bolder

friends of the elderly

to name just three , all salary drawing QUANGOCRATS

steve_wonder

Idbatterim wrote: »

not a quango, but age action ireland seem to be excellent at what they do! taken from their website!

"About Age Action

Age Action is a charity which promotes positive ageing and better policies and services for older people. Working with, and on behalf of, older people we aim to make Ireland the best place in the world in which to grow older."

I'd say they have already achieved their goal!

age action call themselves a charity but the likes of eamon Timmons gets paid for potraying every pensioners as bob cratchet or rashers Tierney

sarumite

steve_wonder wrote: »

age action Ireland

older and bolder

friends of the elderly

to name just three , all salary drawing QUANGOCRATS

None of the above are Quango's.

SpaceTime

All of the above are lobby groups and charities. QANGOs are state funded organisations like the HSE for example.

If other people want to get similar levels of representation, they need to organise similar lobby groups!

Count Dooku

SpaceTime wrote: »

All of the above are lobby groups and charities. QANGOs are state funded organisations like the HSE for example.

If other people want to get similar levels of representation, they need to organise similar lobby groups!

Other people don't have so much free time, because they have to work to earn money.

Maura74

Count Dooku wrote: »

Other people don't have so much free time, because they have to work to earn money.

Exactly, I am still working although I am disabled and 69 because I have always worked and do not want to give it up until I am not able to do it anymore. I would hate to have to go cap in hand for welfare payments.

Ireland has a large amount of people with dementia 42,000 at present and they are mostly in care homes and are sometimes abuse whenever it suite the uncaring workers. These care homes charged vast amounts of money to the care home owners for their services. State pensions and other private pensions that they may have will also go towards their care or non-care as the case maybe. They will have to sell their homes when money runs out and when the money has all been taken by the greedy care home owners they will start to suck the state.

http://www.alzheimer.ie/about-us/news-and-media/news/major-research-project-on-family-carers-to-be-unde.aspx


http://livingwithdementia.tcd.ie/research/

sarumite

SpaceTime wrote: »

All of the above are lobby groups and charities. QANGOs are state funded organisations like the HSE for example.

If other people want to get similar levels of representation, they need to organise similar lobby groups!

They are not Qango's though.

golfwallah

SpaceTime wrote: »

All of the above are lobby groups and charities. QANGOs are state funded organisations like the HSE for example.

If other people want to get similar levels of representation, they need to organise similar lobby groups!

Don't want to be pedantic but let's get our definitions right. Quango is an acronym formed from the initials for "Quasi Autonomous Non Governmental Organisation".

Examples would be Charities like Trocaire, St. Vincent De Paul and housing agencies such as Clúid. This means they are independent of government to a large extent, even if they do receive government funding. They also depend on volunteers to a large extent.

Semi-state and local government organisations are directly owned, controlled and sometimes funded by the state outside the civil service. Indeed, some operate as almost totally commercial companies. Examples are HSE, Coillte, Bord Na Mona, ESB, FAS and County Councils. These are more directly controlled by the state even though the operate at "arms length".

Back to the substantive point - they all lobby government to some extent or other. After all, we live in a socio-political world and that's just one other way to achieve organisational objectives.

sarumite

golfwallah wrote: »

Don't want to be pedantic but let's get our definitions right. Quango is an acronym formed from the initials for "Quasi Autonomous Non Governmental Organisation".

Examples would be Charities like Trocaire, St. Vincent De Paul and housing agencies such as Clúid. This means they are independent of government to a large extent, even if they do receive government funding. They also depend on volunteers to a large extent.

Getting a little bit pedantic, but charities are not quangos. Quango's are organisation that the government have handed over some function to peform, but doesn't have direct control over itself. An obvious example would be RTE. The universities of Ireland are also considered quangos as they run their courses independent of the Department of Education, but perform a task in line with our education policy.

(Apparently a list of Irish quangos can be found here http://quangos-ireland.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Irish_Quangos . I have't really looked at list properly so I can't vouch for how accurate it is)

Cody Pomeray

I don't buy into the notion that there is some submissive Irish gene, nor is our lack of protesting an indicator that we don't have it hard.

I think the reason there are so few protests in Ireland is largely because we are still a relatively rural nation. This cohesion that may come along with that is bolstered by a respectable level of income equality, or at least it's respectable judging by EU norms.

The income equality is self explanatory, but why does it matter than a society is rural?

From the French Revolution to the Arab Spring, protesting is an urban activity. Why? Because in the urban setting, inequality is more obvious, cohesion falls apart, there is anonymity; at times, there is no obvious authority.

Not only do we not have a long history of city living, Irish people missed out on the warfare that jerked the rest of Europe into urban upheaval, that severed their ties to the rural community.

Instead, we all sort of slowly drifted away from the countryside and out of community living, and we are still only slowly drifting away from this today, the artifact of a peasant society remains with us.

Am Chile

Austeritynerd wrote: »

Considering both Ireland and Greece received IMF/ECB/EU bailouts with tough austerity conditions attached, it is easy to understand why people took to the streets in protest.
-> I have examined both bailouts, both were strict, all encompassing and extreme.
What I fail to see is WHY there is such a large difference in protests mobilization in both countries. It seems people protest in Greece, but do not bother in Ireland. I have difficulty finding a reason for such differences.

Greece isnt the only country to of seen protests in the EU -portugal/italy/spain/france have all seen protests.

Three reasons ireland hasnt seen large scale protests like other EU countries so far to date.

(1) lack of leadership by the irish trade union movement-so far the irish trade union movement hasnt done anything that would be signifigant- take november of last year there was a general strike across a few EU countries all except ireland as the irish trade union movement decided to sit on the fence last november-also see a old post of mine on protest in france over the retirement age compared to no response in ireland when the retirement age was raised here.


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85360089&postcount=16

(2) Lot of apathy among the irish public- the ah what can you do attitude among a lot of irish people.

(3) Emigration of irelands youth is also a factor.

BlatentCheek

Am Chile wrote: »

Greece isnt the only country to of seen protests in the EU -portugal/italy/spain/france have all seen protests.

Three reasons ireland hasnt seen large scale protests like other EU countries so far to date.

(1) lack of leadership by the irish trade union movement-so far the irish trade union movement hasnt done anything that would be signifigant- take november of last year there was a general strike across a few EU countries all except ireland as the irish trade union movement decided to sit on the fence last november-also see a old post of mine on protest in france over the retirement age compared to no response in ireland when the retirement age was raised here.


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85360089&postcount=16

(2) Lot of apathy among the irish public- the ah what can you do attitude among a lot of irish people.

(3) Emigration of irelands youth is also a factor.

Agree with most of your points. It has to be mentioned that things in Greece are incomparably worse.

I think most protests in general are overwhelmingly composed of young people and PS workers (eg Greek riots); as young people are always more like to protest and not many non PS workers are unionised any more.

In Ireland PS workers enjoy a relatively generous pay and pension regime that has in the main been protected in exchange for service cutbacks, hiring freezes and far worse conditions for new entrants; so they have less to protest about than their Greek counterparts.

Young people meanwhile have been exposed to such poor employment opportunities that many of the most active have emigrated, much of the remainder either feel lucky to have a job in the circumstances or are anesthetised on the (relatively generous) dole; leaving a small number who may protest compared to Greece.

Personally I lost any enthusiasm for joining PS union led anti austerity protests after I had an argument on boards.ie some months back with a PS member who defended PS unions supporting unequal treatment for new entrants in the strongest terms - the scales fell away from my eyes and I saw that all their claims of "solidarity" are horse****.

The PS unions can moan about Irish peoples apathy all they like but they contributed towards it by shackling the anti austerity movement to their own wage and pension lobbying

creedp

BlatentCheek wrote: »

Personally I lost any enthusiasm for joining PS union led anti austerity protests after I had an argument on boards.ie some months back with a PS member who defended PS unions supporting unequal treatment for new entrants in the strongest terms - the scales fell away from my eyes and I saw that all their claims of "solidarity" are horse****.

I know its shocking really, the PS must be held to a much higher standard of social responsibility that your average Joe which is why is it perfectly acceptable for private companies to maintain salaries for existing workers while they haemorage jobs trying to cut their costs and survive.

SpaceTime

robp wrote: »

Most countries had huge catastrophes, and many others were also colonies with mass emigration. This kind of deterministic explanation is non credible. In fact trying to explain the lack of radical politics in Ireland as a result Catholic inheritance is pretty much a complement for the CC. I am chuffed we lack the extremism occurring in Greece right now.

The truth is the Greeks have a far worse situation then Ireland with no light whatsoever on the horizon.

The lack of radical politics in Ireland's very little to do with catholic heritage. Many countries with very large catholic populations are totally politically unstable and prone to radical politics : Italy, parts of Latin America, even Austria has crazy right wing parties.

The main reasons in Ireland are a bit complicated.

1) The PR-STV electoral system is highly unusual and tends to create a lot of political consensus type thinking. Most other systems, including PR systems with lists, tend to result in party politics and ideology being a lot more dominant.

2) Ireland's political parties tend to all be rather more on the centrist-pragmatic line. We have very, very few politicians who you would describe as being driven by pure ideological dogma. Even Sinn Fein is rather centrist and compared to many socialist parties, our Socialist Party's quite moderate and pragmatic and we have never really had anyone on the extreme right.

Look what happened to those politicians who were less than pragmatic on the abortion reform issue? It will be interesting to see what happens to them when elections come about. I have a feeling their stance won't necessarily go down as well as they think it did.

3) Politics in Ireland is very local and accessible and I think people genuinely do take a huge interest in it. It's noticeable when you come back here having been abroad. People are really clued into political debates here and have an opinion on everything and usually quite an educated one too. Where as I find in a lot of countries they tend to take a 'right' or 'left' agenda and relatively few people seem to actually parse the fine detail of what's going on.

4) Social Partnership - For all its flaws, it has kept the lines of communication open between large unions and policy making and we haven't seen the kind of crippling strikes that have happened elsewhere.

5) There's a massive and very effective industrial relations dispute resolution system in Ireland and it works quite well on a lot of issues that would end up in strike action elsewhere.

6) The 2011 elections that decimated Fianna Fail let off a *lot* of steam.

7) I think Ireland is one of the few countries in Europe where nationalism and the national identity is not occupied by right wing nut jobs. We can still wave the flag, be proud to be Irish and paint ourselves green and that isn't seen as a provocative, anti-immigration, xenophobic thing where as in many EU countries the flag's now completely associated with crazy National Front type parties.

I think that extends to the fact that we are still able to pull together in a crisis like this. Yeah, there'll be loads of bitching and moaning and finger pointing, but I think most people still have a notion that we have to get the situation sorted out come hell or high water and people are genuinely willing to work together on that.

It's something I think we vastly underestimate here and it's one of the big positives about Ireland that comes out in attitudes research, sociological research etc.

We are very unlike Italy, Spain, Portugal and Greece in many respects and tend to have attitudes closer to somewhere like Denmark or Australia.

So, really, it's quite a complex tapestry of reasons, but I think it's largely down to political culture and a very strong sense of being a community and an ability to still retain that sense of community without making it xenophobic.

You can see that in the attitudes to corruption in the banks too. It's definitely more of a sense of betrayal than a class war type thing which is what you tend to get elsewhere.

It was the same with Fianna Fail in the 2007 elections, I felt it was more like the reaction you get when someone discovers that a family member's a complete crook or something. Sort of disappointment / betrayal rather than "those b**tards! over there! who I always hated"
...

Despite all the economic crap going on here, it's still a rather pleasant place to live in many respects.

I also get the impression that in Ireland there's a genuine sense that when push comes to shove, that every stop will be pulled out to keep a lot of basic things going. That has not been the case in Greece where they didn't think twice about inflicting absolutely horrendous cuts on their own people. To me that shows a fractured society.

The *GREEK* Government decided what to cut and they did that largely based on political lines and ideologies.

The EU only said that we're only prepared to lend you X billion.

Despite everything here, the Irish political system (on all sides) seems to be able to come to a negotiated, usually quite reasonable way of spreading the burden. Yeah, I know it's not fair in many respects and loads of us are annoyed but I think it's been spread a lot more fairly than in Greece where people are literally being left with no ability to survive at all while some other people are still not paying any tax and where there are very harsh attitudes towards other members of society coming from certain elites.

Zubeneschamali

BlatentCheek wrote: »

In Ireland PS workers enjoy a relatively generous pay and pension regime that has in the main been protected in exchange for service cutbacks

Young people meanwhile have been exposed to such poor employment opportunities that many of the most active have emigrated, much of the remainder either feel lucky to have a job in the circumstances or are anesthetised on the (relatively generous) dole;

In other words, the people in Ireland most inclined to protest have nothing to protest about.

Hurray! Good job, Government!

Godge

BlatentCheek wrote: »

.

In Ireland PS workers enjoy a relatively generous pay and pension regime that has in the main been protected in exchange for service cutbacks, hiring freezes and far worse conditions for new entrants; so they have less to protest about than their Greek counterparts.

Ah come on, not this urban myth again after three pay cuts for ps workers and a new cheaper pension scheme.

BlatentCheek

creedp wrote: »

I know its shocking really, the PS must be held to a much higher standard of social responsibility that your average Joe which is why is it perfectly acceptable for private companies to maintain salaries for existing workers while they haemorage jobs trying to cut their costs and survive.

Yes. If they're campaigning involves appeals to non PS workers and the unemployed to join them in opposing austerity then they have to be advocating something better than jam for them at the expense of people depending on public services and also at the expense of new entrants to the PS

creedp

BlatentCheek wrote: »

Yes. If they're campaigning involves appeals to non PS workers and the unemployed to join them in opposing austerity then they have to be advocating something better than jam for them at the expense of people depending on public services and also at the expense of new entrants to the PS

So basically private sector workers have no cause to rise up and complain in Ireland at present and will only support austerity protest orgainsed by others on a grace and favour basis if they see that public servants are taking what they consider to be a sufficiently serious hit to their living standards and if they are being totally socially responsible by ensuring that all PS are hit in the exactly same fashion. Sounds to me like such people are the 'prawn sandwich' of protesters.

BlatentCheek

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

In other words, the people in Ireland most inclined to protest have nothing to protest about.

Hurray! Good job, Government!

I didn't say that. I think that a lot of people in Ireland have a vast amount to protest about, but PS workers have less to protest about than many and this fact both quells the extent of their protesting and isolates them from popular support when they do.
Young people have a lot to protest about but a combination of mass emigration, lowered expectations from the political system forced on them by events and a society that has little time for young peoples interests seems to have neutralised their potential in this regard.

Godge wrote: »

Ah come on, not this urban myth again after three pay cuts for ps workers and a new cheaper pension scheme.

Your response just highlights the point I was making. Even after your three pay cuts and a cheaper pension scheme I know many graduates and post graduates who could only dream of remaining in Ireland and having the standard of living of less highly trained or educated PS workers.
Not only has no one in the trade union movement managed to reconcile worse conditions for new entrants, to keep current PS workers in the style their accustomed to, with the "solidarity" they ostensibly represent; but I haven't even heard any of them attempt to.

The PS unions can aggressively lobby for the pay and conditions of their members who joined before 2008 at the expense of everyone else or they can play a central part in a broad based, popular and credible anti austerity movement; they can't do both.