Differences between Irish and Greek protesters?

Austeritynerd

Considering both Ireland and Greece received IMF/ECB/EU bailouts with tough austerity conditions attached, it is easy to understand why people took to the streets in protest.
-> I have examined both bailouts, both were strict, all encompassing and extreme.
What I fail to see is WHY there is such a large difference in protests mobilization in both countries. It seems people protest in Greece, but do not bother in Ireland. I have difficulty finding a reason for such differences.

ardmacha

There was discussion of this on the radio this morning.
Firstly, social cohesion is greater in Ireland.
But also it isn't half as bad here as in Greece.

3DataModem

1. Greek unemployment rate is double Ireland's.
2. Better weather

Austeritynerd

True, but my research also suggests we have some sort of defeatist attitude. A former colony, oppressed by Britain and the Catholic Church, hurt by the famine and mass emigration.

-> Have we been put down too many times?
-> Or have we had it a lot worse before so this crisis does not seem so bad?
-> Or is it our emigration issue, high numbers of youths leaving- had they stayed behind might have turned their frustrations into actions?

Count Dooku

It was less cuts and no redundancies for public sector in Ireland
Most of Greek protesters were PS workers

sarumite

Maybe the Irish just realise that ripping up the pavements and and throw petrol bombs at the garda instead of going to work doesn't actually solve any of the problems that they are complaining about. Honestly, beyond venting frustration, what exactly are protests supposed to achieve.

hfallada

In some countries people go on the streets for everything( France particularly, they protest over issues from pension reform to same-sex marriage). In Ireland people never really protest(50,000 for an important issues is pathetic considering there is 1.6 million in Dublin), as it achieves nothing.

In Greece there isnt the conditions for economic growth. There is huge amounts of red tape( up to 6 months to open a business compared to 3/4 days in Ireland). Massive amounts of proper corruption( its in everyday life, not something you read in the papers like here). Plus the Greeks lied for years about their finances.

Plus in Ireland the cuts werent as severe as Greece( you lose your right to free health care after 6 months of employment meaning the red cross is now providing health care in Greece).

Icepick

Greek protesters don't get 188 a week + bonuses

RichardAnd

I've often asked myself the same question as the OP. To me, some of the following facets might explain the situation...

1. Things in Greece are worse than here and as someone above mentioned,
welfare in the Hellenic side of the europe is far removed from the welfare offered here. I'm not casting an opinion on that but with huge unemployment rates and low welfare payments, that's a lot of pissed off people.

2. How many times have you heard the line "just get on with it?" The Irish were praised for their "pragmatism" by the Troika but when I hear those five works, what I'm really hearing is not pragmatism but rather, the ignoring and tolerance of a problem.

3. This country absolutely festers with apathy. People here complain vociferously about the "gobbernment" but I rarely here anyone suggest a solution. Leading on from my second point, people just tolerate things. I honestly think that a sizable chunk of the population actually live for misery.

4. This is my Last point, for now. I've seen a lot of collective pronouns on this thread but ask yourself how true it is to call the population here "we." Every second thread on his board is an attack on a group of Irish people. There are the civil servants, the unemployed, the elderly, the young, the students, the bankers, the highly paid, the lowly paid, people with mortgages, people without mortgages and a host of other such coteries. Given such massive divisions and barely disguised animosity, is is truthful to claim that there is a "we " at all?

sarumite

RichardAnd wrote: »

4. This is my Last point, for now. I've seen a lot of collective pronouns on this thread but ask yourself how true it is to call the population here "we." Every second thread on his board is an attack on a group of Irish people. There are the civil servants, the unemployed, the elderly, the young, the students, the bankers, the highly paid, the lowly paid, people with mortgages, people without mortgages and a host of other such coteries. Given such massive divisions and barely disguised animosity, is is truthful to claim that there is a "we " at all?

I disagree with this point. I have family members (both immediate and extended) who are in various categories you mention, however that hasn't stopped me disagreeing with certain aspect of the various categories you mention. My father has been a big union man (for one of the larger public sector unions) and we have openly disagreed on the governments handling of PS reform however that doesn't make us (me and my dad) any less of a we. I think the problem with boards.ie is that the anonymity makes it too easy for people to throw out lazy ad hominem attacks like "PS hater" (or the equivalent for the other side of the argument) safe in the knowledge that their post will be thanked rather than actually have to engage in genuine debate. In the real world (as opposed to this virtual one) the sense of 'we" is actually far stronger than on here and the real world is where it counts.

Cookie_Monster

Because for the vast majority of people in Ireland there has been little pain and little impact. Everyone has seen more tax taken, sure but not to levels that justify protest. People just want to keep their heads down and quietly get on with it without putting their income or work in jeopardy with useless protests.

Merelyme

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Because for the vast majority of people in Ireland there has been little pain and little impact. Everyone has seen more tax taken, sure but not to levels that justify protest. People just want to keep their heads down and quietly get on with it without putting their income or work in jeopardy with useless protests.

I don't think austerity is why Irish citizens are so miffed. It's more because the 'austerity' does not apply to ALL citizens. Our political elite have no problem employing wives, husbands, children etc. Nothing, absolutely nothing, has changed for the small minority of our 'superiors'. Right-wing loons try to make out that Irish citizens not taking to the streets implies our acceptance of the injustices forced upon us - it doesn't. It states categorically that our title 'sheeple' is perfectly right. We deserve anything else inflicted upon us UNTIL we take to the streets.

Idbatterim

I dont think the Irish have anywhere near the same sense of delusion or entitlement as the greeks! I have read a lot about the Greeks and their situation, we dont even come close, nowhere near it, they are in a total league of their own...

lmimmfn

Minimum wage in Greece is a lot lower than Ireland, on Milos 2 years ago( my mrs is half Greek so we go there to visit relatives when we can ), the hotel manager earned 800euro per month, shock horror dole heads Ireland.

We were in Athens this year( before the insults on having loads of cash to travel it cost for 4 weeks 1600euro between spending it in ireland and spending it in greece and 2.50euro a pint and 3.50euro for cigs, and it was very beneficial to our kid which is why we traveled and im not willing to discuss why ). Since i was there 2 years ago, Athens is full of regular people that are now homeless. Absolutely distressing and horrible to see, all right everyone complaining about protesting, until you see the actual implications and regular people like you and me on the streets.

Ireland is too chicken **** to rock the boat to protest, were lame and pathetic.

washman3

Idbatterim wrote: »

I dont think the Irish have anywhere near the same sense of delusion or entitlement as the greeks! I have read a lot about the Greeks and their situation, we dont even come close, nowhere near it, they are in a total league of their own...

Where exactly have you read about it..??
Would it be the Denis O'Brien owned Irish Indo.
I suggest you speak to somebody who has visited Athens in the last 2-3 years.

murphaph

lmimmfn wrote: »

Ireland is too chicken **** to rock the boat to protest, were lame and pathetic.

Compared to Greece there's nothing in Ireland to protest about. The government(s) deliberately only targeted small groups for major cuts (carers, special needs etc.) and left the big hitters more or less intact (PS pay slightly reduced, no redundancies, dole only reduced for young people etc.)

In Greece there have been much more wide scale cuts that haven't spared anybody (well I'm sure some groups have been spared but it has been a much broader brush used in Greece).

Idbatterim

Where exactly have you read about it..??
Would it be the Denis O'Brien owned Irish Indo.
I suggest you speak to somebody who has visited Athens in the last 2-3 years.

Maybe you misunderstood me, I meant with regards to their finances, the party is over, they are living well beyond their means, which way they choose to rectify the gap and distribute wealth is up to their government...

have you read about the island of the blind?

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/1682104/report-island-of-the-blind-sheds-light-on-greece-s-malady

there was a fantastic article on Greece and their situation, recommended by one of the posters here some time ago, took a good while to read, Ill try find it later.

Then there was the falsifying of public finances data...

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/33b0a48c-ff7e-11de-8f53-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2ea5I6tkY

As bad as Ireland is and I do my fair share of criticizing it, Ill draw the line at comparisons with Greece! We actually have multiples industries here, tourism, agriculture / fisheries, financial services, pharmaceutical, IT related, food and drink etc. You cant export the bloody sun unfortunately (if you could, they would have a willing buyer here I'm sure) and other than merchant shipping, they dont seem to do much else!

ardmacha

PS pay slightly reduced

So if you boss comes and "slightly" reduces your pay by 15-25%, that's no problem?
It may be less than Greece, but that is no reason to abuse the English language.

K-9

While I do think emigration and a certain passiveness are reasons, Greece looks like it will have a third bail out and I doubt anybody would bet against one after that. Ideally we'll have left the Troika by the end of the year.

Gambas

Austeritynerd wrote: »

True, but my research also suggests we have some sort of defeatist attitude. A former colony, oppressed by Britain and the Catholic Church, hurt by the famine and mass emigration.

-> Have we been put down too many times?
-> Or have we had it a lot worse before so this crisis does not seem so bad?
-> Or is it our emigration issue, high numbers of youths leaving- had they stayed behind might have turned their frustrations into actions?

If you want a navel gazey sort of answer, that would befit the op, I'd suggest that the weather here is more of a downer or most people than the economy. We can afford gazebo's, barbeques but the rain dictates whether we get to enjoy a barbie with the family, not the economy. We don't protest the weather, because people realise that would be pointless. This has given us a zen like ability to realise that protesting against the consequences of borrowing of vast sums of money about 8 years ago would also be pointless. The poor Greeks have had their brains fried by the constant sun and don't know how to handle the situation.


The basic answer is even easier.
Things are pretty good here for the vast majority of people.

Idbatterim

Things are pretty good here for the vast majority of people.

nail on the head. Who has really suffered? pensioners Id say almost not at all. Public servants (a little) private sector (some are better off since the recession started and some have lost all or a large chunk of their income) they are the ones I have sympathy for, those and the kids coming out of college & those who have emigrated in search of work and / or a better life... I have zero sympathy for those, who were able to work and chose not to during the boom's welfare levels being reduced...

sarumite

ardmacha wrote: »

So if you boss comes and "slightly" reduces your pay by 15-25%, that's no problem?
It may be less than Greece, but that is no reason to abuse the English language.

To be fair, the OP talked about our respective bailout programs. Since the bailout, PS pay has only been slightly reduced for some. However, if you want to talk about things since the onset of the austerity (which existed prior to our bailout) then I would agree with respect to the pre-existing paycuts.

robp

Austeritynerd wrote: »

True, but my research also suggests we have some sort of defeatist attitude. A former colony, oppressed by Britain and the Catholic Church, hurt by the famine and mass emigration.

-> Have we been put down too many times?
-> Or have we had it a lot worse before so this crisis does not seem so bad?
-> Or is it our emigration issue, high numbers of youths leaving- had they stayed behind might have turned their frustrations into actions?

Most countries had huge catastrophes, and many others were also colonies with mass emigration. This kind of deterministic explanation is non credible. In fact trying to explain the lack of radical politics in Ireland as a result Catholic inheritance is pretty much a complement for the CC. I am chuffed we lack the extremism occurring in Greece right now.

The truth is the Greeks have a far worse situation then Ireland with no light whatsoever on the horizon.

who_me

murphaph wrote: »

Compared to Greece there's nothing in Ireland to protest about. The government(s) deliberately only targeted small groups for major cuts (carers, special needs etc.) and left the big hitters more or less intact (PS pay slightly reduced, no redundancies, dole only reduced for young people etc.)

In Greece there have been much more wide scale cuts that haven't spared anybody (well I'm sure some groups have been spared but it has been a much broader brush used in Greece).

I can't agree with the bolded statement. Their tax system was absolutely nuts, with the government 'loosening' tax laws every election year to curry favour. They had a 'grey economy (i.e. off the books, no tax paid) of 27.5%, the highest in Europe.

They have been hit far worse than here, but before the bust they all benefited. Here, almost everyone has been hit with the cost of bailing out the banks AND the bond-holders, who somehow escape unscathed; with the poorest feeling the pinch the most.

The situation in Greece is more severe, but the Irish case is by far the more unjust, IMO.

Rightwing

We haven't really seen too many protests in Portugal or Spain either. Simple answer is: Greece is by far in the worst situation. Not too many soup kitchens in operation in this country as far as I know. What's the welfare rate, €200 a week + about 101 other benefits. No wonder we are 1 of the happiest nations on earth.

yoloc

Austeritynerd wrote: »

True, but my research also suggests we have some sort of defeatist attitude. A former colony, oppressed by Britain and the Catholic Church, hurt by the famine and mass emigration.

-> Have we been put down too many times?
-> Or have we had it a lot worse before so this crisis does not seem so bad?
-> Or is it our emigration issue, high numbers of youths leaving- had they stayed behind might have turned their frustrations into actions?

I disagree. you just have to look at the irish men and women in the north who stood up to the brits when they came down on the north with a heavy hand. YOur comments can ring true to the men in the south thou, they just dont have it in them to stand up to wrongs done on them. Thats my opinion anyway with what ive seen since this recession hit. The fighting irish my bollox lol

Idbatterim

They have been hit far worse than here, but before the bust they all benefited. Here, almost everyone has been hit with the cost of bailing out the banks AND the bond-holders, who somehow escape unscathed; with the poorest feeling the pinch the most.

The situation in Greece is more severe, but the Irish case is by far the more unjust, IMO.

totally agree, they have had debt written off. Their debt that has been ran up, is pretty much all sovereign to the best of my knowledge (i.e. they all majorly benefited at the time) in Ireland we are carrying whatever tens of billions it is now of banking debt as sovereign debt. Most of us definitely didnt benefit from that...

Rightwing

Idbatterim wrote: »

totally agree, they have had debt written off. Their debt that has been ran up, is pretty much all sovereign to the best of my knowledge (i.e. they all majorly benefited at the time) in Ireland we are carrying whatever tens of billions it is now of banking debt as sovereign debt. Most of us definitely didnt benefit from that...

They've had some debt written off, but are still crippled with debt.

Did they all benefit? Of course not. Same problem as ourselves, an overpaid PS. Our bank debt worst case scenario is €65bln, a few years ago our deficit was running at €20 bln a year. That's the real problem, unsustainable deficits.

munchkin_utd

Icepick wrote: »

Greek protesters don't get 188 a week + bonuses

and the medical system!

In greece, they dont get the medicine even if it is critical for them to stay alive.
Literally, you have no cash you get no medicine (if its even available) - so either a charity gets it for you or you die.

In Ireland the safety net is just incomparable.

old hippy

sarumite wrote: »

Maybe the Irish just realise that ripping up the pavements and and throw petrol bombs at the garda instead of going to work doesn't actually solve any of the problems that they are complaining about. Honestly, beyond venting frustration, what exactly are protests supposed to achieve.

A clear signal to the people in power that a change is going to come?

Or maybe people should just be content in their misery?

sarumite

old hippy wrote: »

A clear signal to the people in power that a change is going to come?

Or maybe people should just be content in their misery?

Complaining about a problem is not the same as solving a problem. So we kick out the people in power and replace them with a new group of people in power....then what? What change is going to come?

Icepick

Idbatterim wrote: »

I dont think the Irish have anywhere near the same sense of delusion or entitlement as the greeks! I have read a lot about the Greeks and their situation, we dont even come close, nowhere near it, they are in a total league of their own...

check the benefits section on boards

Idbatterim

check the benefits section on boards

I agree Icepick, but I am referring to their society as a whole, I agree its very prevalent here, but over there it just seemed insane...

hmmm

First we need to decide what we're protesting about.

I'm happy to hit the streets to protest:
- The public sector unions striving to maintain salaries while services are cut
- The lack of repossessions which means taxpayers are bailing out property owners
- The massive overspend on social welfare and the endless "entitlements" of part of the population
- The endless focus on banks which allows leftist politicians distract us from a 20% budget deficit
- The excessive taxation of people on higher incomes and the under taxation of those on lower incomes
- The tiny taxes on property and the massive taxes on incomes

But I suspect that's not what the "take to the streets" brigade want to "get angry" about.

ardmacha

The public sector unions striving to maintain salaries

That's outrageous, a union trying to ensure that workers paid for providing a service. Get out and protest immediately.

Elmer Blooker

Austeritynerd wrote: »

Considering both Ireland and Greece received IMF/ECB/EU bailouts with tough austerity conditions attached, it is easy to understand why people took to the streets in protest.
-> I have examined both bailouts, both were strict, all encompassing and extreme.
What I fail to see is WHY there is such a large difference in protests mobilization in both countries. It seems people protest in Greece, but do not bother in Ireland. I have difficulty finding a reason for such differences.

There has always been a very strong far right in Greece dating back to the Nazi occupation and the Civil War against Communists immediately following WW2. The country was run by a right wing military dictatorship up to the late 60s.
The extreme right is on the rise again taking advantage of the recession and its automatically presumed that protesters on the streets are leftists which is not the case. Thankfully Ireland is more politically stable.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/18/greece-far-right-golden-dawn

old hippy

sarumite wrote: »

Complaining about a problem is not the same as solving a problem. So we kick out the people in power and replace them with a new group of people in power....then what? What change is going to come?

How defeatist.

old hippy

hmmm wrote: »

First we need to decide what we're protesting about.

I'm happy to hit the streets to protest:
- The public sector unions striving to maintain salaries while services are cut
- The lack of repossessions which means taxpayers are bailing out property owners
- The massive overspend on social welfare and the endless "entitlements" of part of the population
- The endless focus on banks which allows leftist politicians distract us from a 20% budget deficit
- The excessive taxation of people on higher incomes and the under taxation of those on lower incomes
- The tiny taxes on property and the massive taxes on incomes

But I suspect that's not what the "take to the streets" brigade want to "get angry" about.

Quite right. Your way means more misery for the marginalised, those hit worst by the recession.

But that's always been the way of Thatcher's children.

jester77

Ireland have suffered relatively little pain compared to the Greeks. Social welfare is higher than the wages people receive in most countries around the world. If you are struggling with mortgage in Ireland then you don't need to pay as there are little to no consequences for non-payment. Until people start getting evicted or can't put food on the table then there will be little in terms of protests in Ireland.

sarumite

old hippy wrote: »

How defeatist.

Doesn't actually answer my questions. I am quite optimistic about Irelands prospects. That doesn't mean I need to support protest for the sake of protest.

old hippy

sarumite wrote: »

Doesn't actually answer my questions. I am quite optimistic about Irelands prospects. That doesn't mean I need to support protest for the sake of protest.

Complaining/voicing your dissent and yes, even protesting is the first step to identifying there is a problem. Solving it is in part, people putting politicians under pressure.

hmmm

old hippy wrote: »

Quite right. Your way means more misery for the marginalised, those hit worst by the recession.

But that's always been the way of Thatcher's children.

Your insults have just made my point for me. You want people to get angry and protest, but none of us will be able to agree what we're protesting about. I'm not willing to join any "anti austerity" protest led by union leaders on 100+ grand, and attended only by very well paid public sector workers who are quite willing to sell out any new joiners to the PS as long as they maintain their status.

dissed doc

ardmacha wrote: »

There was discussion of this on the radio this morning.
Firstly, social cohesion is greater in Ireland.
But also it isn't half as bad here as in Greece.

Social cohesion isn't greater in Ireland, but half the country is on stable benefits which are largely untouched.

The only people in Ireland who could legitimately protest are probably at work paying 58% tax, and getting no access to medical cards or any other "services".

sarumite

old hippy wrote: »

Complaining/voicing your dissent and yes, even protesting is the first step to identifying there is a problem. Solving it is in part, people putting politicians under pressure.

Surely protest comes after people have identified a problem. I mean why would people protest if they haven't already identified the problem that caused them to protest in the first place.

Count Dooku

old hippy wrote: »

Complaining/voicing your dissent and yes, even protesting is the first step to identifying there is a problem. Solving it is in part, people putting politicians under pressure.

It wont be much pressure for politicians if there is no reasonable alternative for them. They just will laugh and continue to do what they want

View

sarumite wrote: »

Surely protest comes after people have identified a problem. I mean why would people protest if they haven't already identified the problem that caused them to protest in the first place.

No, no.

You protest first. At the end of the protest you can then ask people what it was all about - then you know the problem.

After that you vote for different people from the exact same party as last time.

You can then be disappointed all over again when their solutions turn out to be the same as before.

golfwallah

Austeritynerd wrote: »

Considering both Ireland and Greece received IMF/ECB/EU bailouts with tough austerity conditions attached, it is easy to understand why people took to the streets in protest.
-> I have examined both bailouts, both were strict, all encompassing and extreme.
What I fail to see is WHY there is such a large difference in protests mobilization in both countries. It seems people protest in Greece, but do not bother in Ireland. I have difficulty finding a reason for such differences.

There are big differences. In Ireland, most protests are of the quiet variety and consequences relatively soft. Think public service cuts (soft consequences for staff – no compulsory redundancies, Croke Park, Haddington Road Agreements), growing unemployed (generous social welfare with lax conditions), defaulting mortgage holders (few repossessions), etc.

And the last big street protests and public furores in Ireland, as I recall it, were about issues like the Household Charge and Right to Life. Even these were quite genteel affairs, with tea and scones in Buswells Hotel opposite Leinster House afterwards.

Greece is quite a different kettle of fish with real austerity cuts in public staff numbers, cuts in social welfare and mortgage defaulters – well let’s not go there. These are just a few examples of why Greeks not only have protests but also riots. Greek people have tolerated a very corrupt political system, not done enough to change it it and are now suffering the consequences.

Our political system isn’t perfect, could be a lot better. Even though most didn’t think it at the time, FF did screw up during the boom (ably assisted by an ineffective opposition that is now in power). Bad and all as our politicians are, they have supported investment in education / infrastructure and encouraged inward foreign direct investment. There's still a long way to go but - protests are not the order of the day as long as our version of austerity means most people can put food on the table and keep a roof over their heads.

old hippy

hmmm wrote: »

Your insults have just made my point for me. You want people to get angry and protest, but none of us will be able to agree what we're protesting about. I'm not willing to join any "anti austerity" protest led by union leaders on 100+ grand, and attended only by very well paid public sector workers who are quite willing to sell out any new joiners to the PS as long as they maintain their status.

What insults? You speak with the voice of a Thatcherite with all the cliches about unions, you wish to make marginalised people even more marginalised.

I tend to find those who speak like yourself to be comfortably well off with nothing pressing to protest about unless it's people on the dole etc.

Scofflaw

old hippy wrote: »

What insults? You speak with the voice of a Thatcherite with all the cliches about unions, you wish to make marginalised people even more marginalised.

I tend to find those who speak like yourself to be comfortably well off with nothing pressing to protest about unless it's people on the dole etc.

Perhaps you can show us, first, some peer-reviewed evidence that these two things are generally connected, and then, how you know that every one of the anonymous posters here fit the description in question.

If you can't do that, I suggest you stop attempting to argue by ad hominems and address points raised in a substantive way.

moderately,
Scofflaw

old hippy

Scofflaw wrote: »

Perhaps you can show us, first, some peer-reviewed evidence that these two things are generally connected, and then, how you know that every one of the anonymous posters here fit the description in question.

If you can't do that, I suggest you stop attempting to argue by ad hominems and address points raised in a substantive way.

moderately,
Scofflaw

My bad. As a union member, I find throwaway comments on union leaders and those who march to be quite annoying and thus I reply in a similar fashion.

Scofflaw

old hippy wrote: »

My bad. As a union member, I find throwaway comments on union leaders and those who march to be quite annoying and thus I reply in a similar fashion.

...and two wrongs don't make a right. On the internet, they tend to simply make an unedifying flame war. From a moddng point of view, the difference is that people are expressing an opinion on "union leaders and those who march", which are comments not aimed at you personally, while you are responding by attacking them personally.

More generally, there is a fairly widespread perception of union leaders as 'fat cats' and 'those who march' as likely to march without any clear aim beyond the marching. If you feel that that's inaccurate, I'd say it's up to you to address why and how that impression is inaccurate, which you won't do by labeling everyone with that opinion as "comfortably well-off Thatcherites".

cordially,
Scofflaw