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Differences between Irish and Greek protesters?

Austeritynerd

Considering both Ireland and Greece received IMF/ECB/EU bailouts with tough austerity conditions attached, it is easy to understand why people took to the streets in protest.
-> I have examined both bailouts, both were strict, all encompassing and extreme.
What I fail to see is WHY there is such a large difference in protests mobilization in both countries. It seems people protest in Greece, but do not bother in Ireland. I have difficulty finding a reason for such differences.

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SpaceTime

I don't think you can really compare Irish and Greek politics either.

Ireland's system hasn't melted down into complete chaos, it's still working.
The crisis hasn't blown out of all control and gone completely mad like Greece and some things have stablised.

We don't have a very strong conflict between factions of the extreme left and right, even our most 'extreme' left and 'extreme' right would be absolute centrist pragmatists compared to Greece or many other countries.

There's huge social cohesion here and huge political cohesion too.

The other issue is that the PR-STV voting system gives people very serious power over TDs and I do think that the back benchers are living in fear of the electorate which is no harm.

If you're in France for example, the democratic system historically gave you a choice of a very powerful executive president with a 7-year term!! He was practically a dictator for that period of time and it wasn't unusual to push through really unpopular policies. This is why there's a huge tradition of taking to the streets in France as people don't have the same level of access to politics as they do in Ireland in many respects. The presidential term only became 5 years in 2002!

Bear in mind that France's 1968 strikes were bordering on civil war level! There was a complete state of conflict between a large % of the population and the state. That's really not something that's happened in Ireland and if it did, the government would pretty much automatically fall, long before it came to that level of extremes, due the design of the system.

On top of that, I know we say we didn't punish the system for screwing up, but we decimated Fianna Fail in the last elections and I think that's something that both released a lot of anger in the correct way and also sent a very powerful message to the political system that it hadn't really been given to that point - i.e. screw us over and you will be facing political oblivion.

I know it's a bit annoying to see FF support on the rise again, but I still think that we did actually send a very powerful message in that election.

We do need pressure put on, but I don't think we need violent chaotic protest.

I mean, the Gardai for example are very much on the same side as the rest of us in this! Why would anyone want to be rioting against them!? They're the very same people who are facing station closures, pay cuts, longer hours, recruitment freezes etc.

A lot of countries on the continent are *much* more authoritarian "us" and "them" and there's heavy policing and all that kind of thing.
Ireland's more about consensus power, which can be a mess sometimes, but it's definitely not as prone to blowing up into all out conflict as certain other systems are.

I think the Government and everyone else knows that there's a few levels of Irish political annoyance:

1: Slight moaning/groaning - Government OK
2: Loads of people ringing Joe Duffy, angry posts on forums, bitching about them in the pub - Government starting to get into hot water.
3: Back benchers jump ship / go independent.
4: TDs not being invited in for tea / being snubbed / given out to at bars : Government collapses.

We're about level 2.5 at the moment.

The issue in Ireland is that once the Government loses political consensus (no matter how flawed that consensus might be) it's gone. That's definitely not the case in a lot of other countries.

munchkin_utd

uncle_mick wrote: »

pensioners have been completely shielded and they are the most powerfull voting bloc along with public sector workers , the rest of the population on welfare have experienced significant cuts , hence why so many young people have left the country
<snip>

+1

my folks (pensioners) in ireland are better off then myself and the wife in germany, both working paying german taxes and earning more each than the irish or german average wage.
Like the 30somethings in ireland crippled by mortgages, its the outgoings which are killing us. Between taxes, rent, car, travel, and household expenses.

My parents have no rent or mortgage (so automatically 1000euro+ a month up over a young working person!) have medical card, phone, electricity, bus pass, tax free state pensions (incl a small uk state one one) and tax free private pension.
The ONLY cut they have suffered is the loss of a free passport!
But the old free passport is still good for their multiple foreign holidays per year so they are grand! Thanks to the fact that the irish government is that good to pensioners, they'll be on their third foreign spin next week.

Its actually a joke that its THAT cushy for irish pensioners and in Greece there are people literally, physically dying for lack of food or medicine.
Indeed, the irish pensioners shouldn't be made suffer and thats not what im suggesting, but is a HIGHER tax free allowance than working people justified for instance?

SpaceTime

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Its actually a joke that its THAT cushy for irish pensioners and in Greece there are people literally, physically dying for lack of food or medicine.
Indeed, the irish pensioners shouldn't be made suffer and thats not what im suggesting, but is a HIGHER tax free allowance than working people justified for instance?

I agree with you on the pensioner vote lobby and the fact that the public service have been to a large degree sheltered from the worst of it. I think the worst aspect of it is that the cuts that have been inflicted on the public sector tend to result in people maintaining incomes while services are cut and front line staff are put under increasing pressure. They would be better off taking a more holistic look at the costs and hitting the higher and middle levels much more in terms of both salaries and number reductions.

It's up to the people in the middle of the crisis however to start coming together and putting some political pressure on. You can't really blame the public sector or the pensioners for coming together and lobbying to protect their interests. The rest of us need to do the same!

However, I don't think that you can compare the situation in Ireland and Greece directly. The underlying economics are pretty starkly different. They just both toppled because the financial crisis triggered a reality check but for quite different reasons.

The Greek situation is just vastly worse for a whole variety of reasons. Their economy had been living in an absolute parallel universe where a huge % of jobs were being created and paid for by out of control state borrowing and direct state spending. Ireland's situation is more of a classic (albeit extreme) housing bubble in a very small, self-contained market.

The underlying Greek economy is also extremely weak. There's very little to build upon to get things back on track. Where as Ireland's real (non-bubble) economy was very strong and we had a massive construction bubble built on top of that.

Ireland also had astonishingly high levels of growth during the bubble period which meant that when it did hit the bust we were falling from a very extreme high level to a fairly average level in terms of GDP per capita and spending power. Yeah, it hurts and it's unpleasant, but it didn't leave us starving on the streets.

Greece was only at what you would consider normal EU levels during its bubble period. So, when it crashed it really crashed and basic things stopped being possible for a lot of people and things like access to medicines became an issue which is crazy.

Ireland's workforce and range of industries is also far more 'growth-ready' than Greece and it's all geared towards high-tech industries and export growth where as Greece is hugely dependent on tourism and low value services.
There's a hugely different level of education, a hugely different skill set and much more flexibility and adaptability in the way we do things here.

Ireland's underlying pre-bubble economy never went away. It was buried under the hype of speculator nonsense largely and that's what's still driving our exports and keeping us somewhat afloat.

I would also add that despite all of it, aspects of our public administration and its ability to use public bodies and private sector links to pull in investment is literally world-class. The success of IDA in particular is really quite amazing.

There's a huge state and private sector apparatus in Ireland that really gets out there and pulls investment in pulling and tapping every contact that we can get access to.

If you've ever been on an Irish trade mission you'll see what I mean. It's actually very reassuring to see how the whole thing operates and I would be left with a lot more optimism about what can be achieved to get us back to some level of normality at least again in the next few years.

I just think there's a huge sense that Ireland's able to pull out all the stops, pull in every contact, every lead and just get on with it!

Yeah, there were major problems with political corruption, regulatory capture, overly-close proximity between politics and the banks and the developers, but I think there are still hugely positive aspects to the political system here too.
There's a fair bit of rot still needs to be cut out, but there's also a hell of a lot of people with a drive to get the place back on track and I think that's largely what has taken us out of the perception of being lumped in with the Southern European countries in terms of investor perception.

....

I just think we should be organising more and putting pressure on where it's needed. We don't need to resort to violence on the streets to do that though. Nobody's actually stopping us putting pressure on!

People need to just get organised if they've an issue to lobby on.

ardmacha

My parents have no rent or mortgage (so automatically 1000euro+ a month up over a young working person!) have medical card, phone, electricity, bus pass, tax free state pensions (incl a small uk state one one) and tax free private pension.

Pensions are not tax free any more than any other income.

I think the worst aspect of it is that the cuts that have been inflicted on the public sector tend to result in people maintaining incomes while services are cut and front line staff are put under increasing pressure. They would be better off taking a more holistic look at the costs and hitting the higher and middle levels much more in terms of both salaries and number reductions.

How on earth could people maintain incomes when they have been cut 3 times and the higher and middle levels, who were not significantly overpaid relative to similar private sector workers, cut by 20-30%?

uncle_mick

SpaceTime wrote: »

I agree with you on the pensioner vote lobby and the fact that the public service have been to a large degree sheltered from the worst of it. I think the worst aspect of it is that the cuts that have been inflicted on the public sector tend to result in people maintaining incomes while services are cut and front line staff are put under increasing pressure. They would be better off taking a more holistic look at the costs and hitting the higher and middle levels much more in terms of both salaries and number reductions.

It's up to the people in the middle of the crisis however to start coming together and putting some political pressure on. You can't really blame the public sector or the pensioners for coming together and lobbying to protect their interests. The rest of us need to do the same!

However, I don't think that you can compare the situation in Ireland and Greece directly. The underlying economics are pretty starkly different. They just both toppled because the financial crisis triggered a reality check but for quite different reasons.

The Greek situation is just vastly worse for a whole variety of reasons. Their economy had been living in an absolute parallel universe where a huge % of jobs were being created and paid for by out of control state borrowing and direct state spending. Ireland's situation is more of a classic (albeit extreme) housing bubble in a very small, self-contained market.

The underlying Greek economy is also extremely weak. There's very little to build upon to get things back on track. Where as Ireland's real (non-bubble) economy was very strong and we had a massive construction bubble built on top of that.

Ireland also had astonishingly high levels of growth during the bubble period which meant that when it did hit the bust we were falling from a very extreme high level to a fairly average level in terms of GDP per capita and spending power. Yeah, it hurts and it's unpleasant, but it didn't leave us starving on the streets.

Greece was only at what you would consider normal EU levels during its bubble period. So, when it crashed it really crashed and basic things stopped being possible for a lot of people and things like access to medicines became an issue which is crazy.

Ireland's workforce and range of industries is also far more 'growth-ready' than Greece and it's all geared towards high-tech industries and export growth where as Greece is hugely dependent on tourism and low value services.
There's a hugely different level of education, a hugely different skill set and much more flexibility and adaptability in the way we do things here.

Ireland's underlying pre-bubble economy never went away. It was buried under the hype of speculator nonsense largely and that's what's still driving our exports and keeping us somewhat afloat.

I would also add that despite all of it, aspects of our public administration and its ability to use public bodies and private sector links to pull in investment is literally world-class. The success of IDA in particular is really quite amazing.

There's a huge state and private sector apparatus in Ireland that really gets out there and pulls investment in pulling and tapping every contact that we can get access to.

If you've ever been on an Irish trade mission you'll see what I mean. It's actually very reassuring to see how the whole thing operates and I would be left with a lot more optimism about what can be achieved to get us back to some level of normality at least again in the next few years.

I just think there's a huge sense that Ireland's able to pull out all the stops, pull in every contact, every lead and just get on with it!

Yeah, there were major problems with political corruption, regulatory capture, overly-close proximity between politics and the banks and the developers, but I think there are still hugely positive aspects to the political system here too.
There's a fair bit of rot still needs to be cut out, but there's also a hell of a lot of people with a drive to get the place back on track and I think that's largely what has taken us out of the perception of being lumped in with the Southern European countries in terms of investor perception.

....

I just think we should be organising more and putting pressure on where it's needed. We don't need to resort to violence on the streets to do that though. Nobody's actually stopping us putting pressure on!

People need to just get organised if they've an issue to lobby on.

I meant the public sector were politically powerfull in the same way the pensioners are , the public sector unlike the pensioners have had cuts however , especially new entrants who are on pretty poor wages , teachers , nurses etc , more senior ps workers pulled up the ladder and unions signed off on the arrangement

chopper6

Scofflaw wrote: »

More generally, there is a fairly widespread perception of union leaders as 'fat cats' and 'those who march' as likely to march without any clear aim beyond the marching.

Widespread amongst whom? The rabid anti PS posters on boards.ie?

I can think of 300,000+ people who would disagree.

But then if you dont actually work in the PS it's alright to make generalistaions about them.

uncle_mick

chopper6 wrote: »

Widespread amongst whom? The rabid anti PS posters on boards.ie?

I can think of 300,000+ people who would disagree.

But then if you dont actually work in the PS it's alright to make generalistaions about them.

many in the public sector itself view union chiefs as insider establishment trough swillers

chopper6

uncle_mick wrote: »

many in the public sector itself view union chiefs as insider establishment trough swillers

So we have a "perception" and "many"...what happened to facts?

uncle_mick

chopper6 wrote: »

So we have a "perception" and "many"...what happened to facts?

what facts are you referring to ?

munchkin_utd

ardmacha wrote: »

Pensions are not tax free any more than any other income.

thats splitting hairs to be honest. Pension income is indeed just money same as any other income, but the pensioners themselves are special.

The over 65s have a different tax regime where their income under 36,000 for a couple is tax and PRSI free and even when over the threshold theres a different method of calculation for it than a normal worker

Its so cushy (even before the other benefits) that I'll be definitely moving back to Ireland to spend my twilight years if I haven't moved already by that stage.
I'd be paying tax in Germany as a pensioner the EXACT SAME as any other working person, which means from 5000euro upwards - and theres no list of bonuses. And rather than get medical for free i'd be paying 15% of my pension by staying in germany!!

If you were to list the benefits pensioners recieve and compare germany and ireland blindfolded you'd not be able to figure which country is bankrupt and in an austerity programme ran by the IMF and which one is has historical low unemployment and is the economic powerhouse of europe!!

Geuze

ardmacha wrote: »

Pensions are not tax free any more than any other income.

QUOTE]

Note that people over 65 do enjoy two tax reliefs that people under 65 don't get.

Idbatterim

thats splitting hairs to be honest. Pension income is indeed just money same as any other income, but the pensioners themselves are special.

The over 65s have a different tax regime where their income under 36,000 for a couple is tax and PRSI free and even when over the threshold theres a different method of calculation for it than a normal worker

Its so cushy (even before the other benefits) that I'll be definitely moving back to Ireland to spend my twilight years if I haven't moved already by that stage.
I'd be paying tax in Germany as a pensioner the EXACT SAME as any other working person, which means from 5000euro upwards - and theres no list of bonuses. And rather than get medical for free i'd be paying 15% of my pension by staying in germany!!

If you were to list the benefits pensioners receive and compare germany and ireland blindfolded you'd not be able to figure which country is bankrupt and in an austerity programme ran by the IMF and which one is has historical low unemployment and is the economic powerhouse of europe!!

totally agree, my dad is german living here and has a German and Irish pension, think he gets about E80 a week from Germany (was based on what he paid into the german system) the Irish one along with all of the benefits in unbelievable. The problem is, I agree with the public service comments and also I'd say were all in agreement over welfare requiring a total overhaul. But I think its political suicide to go after the pensioners, at least it would be political suicide to go after the core weekly pension. There are only so many large vested interest groups that you can go after, best thing they can do is leave it and even when a recovery comes about, leave it and let inflation eat away at it and reduce it to a more reasonable level...

Over the next few years,any budget surpluses should be used to pay down national debt, invest in capital expenditure, undoing some of the cuts to the vulnerable (by this I mean those who actually are vulnerable), i.e. disabled etc and lower the insane marginal rate of tax IMO...

ardmacha

The main injustice with the pension is that someone who has paid little or nothing in gets a payment only marginally less than someone who had paid for 40+ years. This does not happen in Germany.

The other reason Germany is not so generous to pensioners is that it has more them and more to come.

Good loser

Re the Greeks. I remember - hopefully correctly - in a major reform about 12 months ago large cuts for the civil service were proposed (except for Finance). The Minister at the last minute slipped in a provision that DOF were to be treated as the other civil servants.

This was apparently not spotted for a while and when it was, at the last minute, all hell broke loose. Result was the Minister gave in and Finance officials (about 1600 people) were exempted.

Open to correction on that.

maninasia

sore_nads wrote: »

germans are less soft headed , irish people subscribe to the notion that as soon as someone reaches the ages of sixty six , the instantaneously become poverty stricken and inherently vulnerable , germans tend to to indulge in such trite sentimentality

In Ireland the biggest divide is between the older people and the younger people. The older people have been well looked after in the main, the younger people have been told to deal with it or emigrate.

spank_inferno

I agree.... the wealth transfer from those under 40 to those over 60 is enormous.

Zubeneschamali

maninasia wrote: »

The older people have been well looked after in the main, the younger people have been told to deal with it or emigrate.

Absolutely! No-one back in the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, or 80s ever had to emigrate. Spoiled gits. And if they did, they could just catch a cheap Ryanair flight home for the weekend anytime they liked.

SpaceTime

Biggest issue in Ireland is that the property bubble transferred one generation's wealth and borrowing ability to a small % of the older generation.

A lot of older people were able to cash in on high house prices

Before anyone says it, yeah some of them may have also lost their shirts on investments or helping their kids etc but many just made a very big profit on homes built and bought in the previous decades which were sold at the peak of the market

There's also another issue. The generation coming up who missed the bunker and people who didn't get into the property market who may be in their 20s - 30s because they were just prevented by circumstance or were savvy to the impending collapse are going to be much wealthier than the mortgage to the hilt lost generation.

I can see a situation where we end up with a middle aged lost generation who will be a lot worse off than their younger colleagues and peers and also a lot worse off than the older generations.

It'll be an unusual few decades ahead!

steve_wonder

maninasia wrote: »

In Ireland the biggest divide is between the older people and the younger people. The older people have been well looked after in the main, the younger people have been told to deal with it or emigrate.

and that will continue to be the case until young ( er ) people cop on to the fact that the elderly are in the main , well off in this country , politicans spoil the elderly because they know they have near universal support to do so from all age groups

people need to stop voting against their own interests , the elderly are not vulnerable , they are extremely well organised politically , why do you think so many QUANGO,s represent them , its because they have money and power

sarumite

steve_wonder wrote: »

why do you think so many QUANGO,s represent them , its because they have money and power

Which quangos specifically represent them?

Idbatterim

not a quango, but age action ireland seem to be excellent at what they do! taken from their website!

"About Age Action

Age Action is a charity which promotes positive ageing and better policies and services for older people. Working with, and on behalf of, older people we aim to make Ireland the best place in the world in which to grow older."

I'd say they have already achieved their goal!

steve_wonder

sarumite wrote: »

Which quangos specifically represent them?

age action Ireland

older and bolder

friends of the elderly

to name just three , all salary drawing QUANGOCRATS

steve_wonder

Idbatterim wrote: »

not a quango, but age action ireland seem to be excellent at what they do! taken from their website!

"About Age Action

Age Action is a charity which promotes positive ageing and better policies and services for older people. Working with, and on behalf of, older people we aim to make Ireland the best place in the world in which to grow older."

I'd say they have already achieved their goal!

age action call themselves a charity but the likes of eamon Timmons gets paid for potraying every pensioners as bob cratchet or rashers Tierney

sarumite

steve_wonder wrote: »

age action Ireland

older and bolder

friends of the elderly

to name just three , all salary drawing QUANGOCRATS

None of the above are Quango's.

SpaceTime

All of the above are lobby groups and charities. QANGOs are state funded organisations like the HSE for example.

If other people want to get similar levels of representation, they need to organise similar lobby groups!

Count Dooku

SpaceTime wrote: »

All of the above are lobby groups and charities. QANGOs are state funded organisations like the HSE for example.

If other people want to get similar levels of representation, they need to organise similar lobby groups!

Other people don't have so much free time, because they have to work to earn money.

Maura74

Count Dooku wrote: »

Other people don't have so much free time, because they have to work to earn money.

Exactly, I am still working although I am disabled and 69 because I have always worked and do not want to give it up until I am not able to do it anymore. I would hate to have to go cap in hand for welfare payments.

Ireland has a large amount of people with dementia 42,000 at present and they are mostly in care homes and are sometimes abuse whenever it suite the uncaring workers. These care homes charged vast amounts of money to the care home owners for their services. State pensions and other private pensions that they may have will also go towards their care or non-care as the case maybe. They will have to sell their homes when money runs out and when the money has all been taken by the greedy care home owners they will start to suck the state.

http://www.alzheimer.ie/about-us/news-and-media/news/major-research-project-on-family-carers-to-be-unde.aspx

http://livingwithdementia.tcd.ie/research/

sarumite

SpaceTime wrote: »

All of the above are lobby groups and charities. QANGOs are state funded organisations like the HSE for example.

If other people want to get similar levels of representation, they need to organise similar lobby groups!

They are not Qango's though.

golfwallah

SpaceTime wrote: »

All of the above are lobby groups and charities. QANGOs are state funded organisations like the HSE for example.

If other people want to get similar levels of representation, they need to organise similar lobby groups!

Don't want to be pedantic but let's get our definitions right. Quango is an acronym formed from the initials for "Quasi Autonomous Non Governmental Organisation".

Examples would be Charities like Trocaire, St. Vincent De Paul and housing agencies such as Clúid. This means they are independent of government to a large extent, even if they do receive government funding. They also depend on volunteers to a large extent.

Semi-state and local government organisations are directly owned, controlled and sometimes funded by the state outside the civil service. Indeed, some operate as almost totally commercial companies. Examples are HSE, Coillte, Bord Na Mona, ESB, FAS and County Councils. These are more directly controlled by the state even though the operate at "arms length".

Back to the substantive point - they all lobby government to some extent or other. After all, we live in a socio-political world and that's just one other way to achieve organisational objectives.

sarumite

golfwallah wrote: »

Don't want to be pedantic but let's get our definitions right. Quango is an acronym formed from the initials for "Quasi Autonomous Non Governmental Organisation".

Examples would be Charities like Trocaire, St. Vincent De Paul and housing agencies such as Clúid. This means they are independent of government to a large extent, even if they do receive government funding. They also depend on volunteers to a large extent.

Getting a little bit pedantic, but charities are not quangos. Quango's are organisation that the government have handed over some function to peform, but doesn't have direct control over itself. An obvious example would be RTE. The universities of Ireland are also considered quangos as they run their courses independent of the Department of Education, but perform a task in line with our education policy.

(Apparently a list of Irish quangos can be found here http://quangos-ireland.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Irish_Quangos . I have't really looked at list properly so I can't vouch for how accurate it is)

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