Deer Numbers

dto001

Howaya Lads,
It's 9 days into the season are you seeing the same numbers of deer as last year or do you think numbers are down? I myself think numbers are way down and they are very spooked! I'm starting to think its time that a tags system should be brought in for deer that are to be sold if its for personal consumption then it should stay the same!! Or something like that. Just my opinion. What are your toughts?

Cass

Deer numbers around me are the same as during the off season and in two of my permissions i'm seeing an increase in deer numbers compared to the last 4-5 years where they were well down.

A tagging system can be abused. You know the old line of though that the more advanced the system of control the more advanced the system to bypass the controls. As it stands if you sell to a game dealer you need to fill in a form with all your details, and have the trained hunter course. The course is being given some leeway because they implemented it too quick for everyone to have it, but it will be necessary for all in the future. That leaves a paper trail of who shot it, where, how much they got, etc.

I'm hearing stories of lads getting hit with tax bills, and lads on welfare having their benefits reduced or stopped based on the money they make from shooting deer. Now they are stories so not sure if it's true, but i don't doubt it would be done.

A tagging system might help for a while, and it'd be more than what is in place at the moment. It would also put in place a system to track who shoots the most deer for selling reasons to personal consumption. Also if you fail to use your tags you get less the next year. Perhaps even a small fee for each tag. Say €2, €3 up to €5 per tag. Then the dealer takes the tag, and returns it with your paperwork to the NPWS so one cannot be submitted without the other. IOW no re-using the same tag.

dodderangler

Seen plenty during off season and I'm seen same numbers now except the stags aren't about. Plenty of does around.
Came across 3 last night while out lamping.
They are around just don't think there's as many stags

One shot on kill

I was out last nite I seen absalutely noting. I have been seen groups of 4-6 hinds and calfs but have only seen one pricket. No big stags at all.

dev110

Will most of the bucks/stags not stay fairly elusive until the rutting starts?

Deerspotter

I am seeing more hinds and calves than ever this year and they are in places I haven't seen them in years
!
Stags won't be around till the rutting starts, unless you know where the bachelor herds hang out.
If you do know - then you'll know, numbers of stags have been declining for years. I now think that stags should not be allowed to be shot at all for about 3 years, to let the Sika herd balance out - as there is almost no rut any more.
I've seen crappy four pointer stags holding 10 or 12 hinds. That should never be the case. But with pay-by-weight at the dealers and the continued want for a trophy head - all decent stags are shot in too high numbers.

If they won't stop shooting stags, then they should be out of season in September, October and November and only in season for December - when you see them the least!

Shooting stags during the rut, is not sport it is culling. I can whistle a stag to within 50m of me during the rut.

DEMOLISHER

seen plenty does and fawns but also lot more males than other years,but usually wont see big stags till rutting starts

The Aussie

dev110 wrote: »

Will most of the bucks/stags not stay fairly elusive until the rutting starts?

Anyone game enough to put a week down as the start of the Rut, this long summer is putting thing back a bit by my reckoning.

PL05

Have to agree with some of what Deerspotter said. I think in order to keep the herd in balance stalkers should consentrate on culling more females and less stags, as shooting any amount of stags does,nt really have any impact on population unless their all shot of course. with Re: to fallow bucks, there does,nt seem to be many around with decent heads as they were always more inclined to be shot for their impressive antlers. its also well documented that quite a few fallow bucks dont reach their 3rd year as they are an easy enough target. In my opinion, if the birth rate is say 50/50 male/female then there should be plenty of spikers about and maybe the bigger stags should be left alone for a few years. I suppose what im trying to say is that at the end of the day its up to the individual stalker or stalkers to assess and manage the population on their permissions or leases whatever the case may be, ie. know how many deer are in the area and cull them accordingly and responsibly.

The Aussie

PL05 wrote: »

maybe the bigger stags should be left alone for a few years.

Herd management is not always a priority more's the pity.

Then the Elephant in the room of Poachers comes into the equation.
Leave a Stag and some Mo Mo (the Kanturk Low Life springs to mind) comes along and takes a Trophy for himself.
Greed is a terrible disease and not conducive to Deer Management.

PL05

The Aussie wrote: »

Anyone game enough to put a week down as the start of the Rut, this long summer is putting thing back a bit by my reckoning.

I agree, we need the temp to drop right down, but could,nt hazzard a guess when, with way weather is these days.

PL05

The Aussie wrote: »

Herd management is not always a priority more's the pity.

Then the Elephant in the room of Poachers comes into the equation.
Leave a Stag and some Mo Mo (the Kanturk Low Life springs to mind) comes along and takes a Trophy for himself.
Greed is a terrible disease and not conducive to Deer Management.

Spot on.

greengrasscork

I've been out in hills in kerry 4 times in the last week and have seen a lot of bucks and stags all travelling in their batchelor herds saw 5 red stags in one group and came across 2 groups of 3-4 sika bucks and a few solo bucks. Female numbers seem to be up in the permissions im hunting. In general numbers are up from what ive seen so far. Heard a sika whistling and saw him starting to mark his rutting hole yesterday morning but as previous lads said its still too mild yet to get things going.

DubPredator

Anyone know how to go about changing the regulation 're shooting stage? I agree that no stags should be shot for at least 3 years and reduce the number of hinds

Deerspotter

Start lobbying the NPWS to get the hunting seasons changed - but have your evidence.
Proper herd management is a great idea, as has been said. But I've been with hunters and begged them not to shoot the stag and they said to me "so just leave it for the poacher?" which is a statement that has too much truth in it these days. So if the poachers had no market for the stags either (as they'd all be illegal) then they'd be left alone for a while.

wexfordman2

Deerspotter wrote: »

Start lobbying the NPWS to get the hunting seasons changed - but have your evidence.
Proper herd management is a great idea, as has been said. But I've been with hunters and begged them not to shoot the stag and they said to me "so just leave it for the poacher?" which is a statement that has too much truth in it these days. So if the poachers had no market for the stags either (as they'd all be illegal) then they'd be left alone for a while.

Or how about just make the sale/purchase of stag carcass to game dealers illegal ? Perhaps that would then do what you are pushing for but push the onus onto legit shooters to act responsibly.

Might be a good test to measure the impact of poaching/commercial deer sale etc to see the impact it would have on stags over a few years.

323

Way down in areas where the were in the past. Seeing some where were none before, well away from the range of the drive by shooters and commercial lampers.

Deerspotter wrote: »

Start lobbying the NPWS to get the hunting seasons changed - but have your evidence.
Proper herd management is a great idea, as has been said. But I've been with hunters and begged them not to shoot the stag and they said to me "so just leave it for the poacher?" which is a statement that has too much truth in it these days. So if the poachers had no market for the stags either (as they'd all be illegal) then they'd be left alone for a while.

From past experience dealing with them, talking to the NPWS is a total waste of time. Unless that is, if are talking about reducing deer numbers.

Tried it, but in our case herd management just did not work with attitudes here.

Was told last year by a number of otherwise very conservative stalkers to go out and shoot every large stag you see, even if meat used only to feed the dogs. Idea being to make it uneconomical for the commercial shooters. From the number of commercial shooters out in force already this year, unfortunately beginning to agree with this strategy.

Deerspotter

A decapitated and gutted deer could be very hard to sex - so I'd say trusting the game-dealers to regulate the poachers might not be the best idea.

wexfordman2

Deerspotter wrote: »

A decapitated and gutted deer could be very hard to sex - so I'd say trusting the game-dealers to regulate the poachers might not be the best idea.

I suppose, but if followed with unannounced inspections, it might be a bit of a deterrent. Or perhaps if the organs had to be retained for inspection ? I know a bit of fiddling could still be done, but surely making it as hard as possible would aleviate the problem.

Its just frustrating to see measures put in place to tackle poaching, which affect legit and responsible shooters. TBH, I would be happy to pay into a fund which helped to pay for game dealer inspections etc, even if the fund was collected as part of my deer licence.

thetl

I wonder what sort of effect the wide spread use of sika deer callers/ whistles during the rut is having on stag numbers.There are a lot of people using them especially commercial outfits ,a lot of stags being shot during the rut now would never have been shot 10 years ago before callers were common place.
In theory there should be more stags around as the season for stags used to run to the end of February giving hunters an extra month of stag shooting .

deano2882

i got a phonecall earlyier off owner of 1 of my permissions he was out on quad and seen a massive stag and a couple of younger stags n a herd id prefer to leave the older stags an take out younger 1.s a lovely sight a massive stag wit doe.s n he wud prob breed beta young than smaller stag.s maybe im wrong??

Deerspotter

A stags condition is less to do with breeding and more to do with nutrition, so even if a small, bad quality stag does some breeding, it could still produce a Master stag as long as the hind is healthy and the calf gets the right nutrition.
Lads have been able to whistle stags without callers since forever. But I guess not everyone could do it, or knew how to. Now that anyone can get a caller - the stags have NO chance.

ah sure !

deano2882 wrote: »

i got a phonecall earlyier off owner of 1 of my permissions he was out on quad and seen a massive stag and a couple of younger stags n a herd id prefer to leave the older stags an take out younger 1.s a lovely sight a massive stag wit doe.s n he wud prob breed beta young than smaller stag.s maybe im wrong??

i am coming arround your place next week Deano2882 :P

deano2882

ah sure ! wrote: »

i am coming arround your place next week Deano2882 :P

giv me a bell ill hav the kettle on :-) hopefully be out nextweek myself awaiting licence in post it was sent off by super yesterday after long disscussion over granting me a mod..

PL05

Maybe a tread should be started with genuine stalkers reporting sightings and numbers, sex, age etc of deer. any evidence of poaching also. without giving away where your permissions are of coarse. this could be done by just giving province. run it for a month or so and although it may not be 100% accurate as counts go [what counts are 100%] it might give some idea of numbers, sex, age and amount of poaching going on and which areas. also deer been shot.

The Aussie

Deerspotter wrote: »

Start lobbying the NPWS.

I have been since April, and a few others, because I hate TV and have an hour or two free each night, don't tell to many people though, the Man Tears are truly embarrassing..........




Sorry, Shame Secretions.. You know, the blokes who go out for "Fox" and come home with "bigger Fox"

But being serious though, contact them with your concerns, the NPWS are good at replying and seem like decent people

rowa

Whats the situation with the price of deer this year ? Are the values still high ? I ask because i thought the price couldn't remain high for long and when it went down the poachers would find some new scam to make money.

ah sure !

deano2882 wrote: »

giv me a bell ill hav the kettle on :-) hopefully be out nextweek myself awaiting licence in post it was sent off by super yesterday after long disscussion over granting me a mod..

a cookie would also be nice to go with the tea
going Friday morning so will stop on my way back if you are there , this way you can have a closer look at the big buck the farmer saw the other day :eek:

4200fps

Yes numbers are down in well shot areas.Their habits change as soon as the season starts I notice. I seen nothing but calfs and does, I wouldn't be far off if id said I seen 100 deer within the week. 10% were males. There all going to pop out everywhere grazing after the rutt after loosing their condition then the ratio of male/female be near even compaired to now. There is still plenty of spots that are heavily populated and its never near the deer signs you see on the roads where most waste days looking. Tagging won't work. Waste of time. I could sell as many private as to a game dealer and thats a fact! Only thing that will help deer population is restrict the amount of deer licences thats issued, let the goverment put a ban on game dealers buying in wild deer. That would put alot of shooting them. Salomon tagging is tampered with. Hot water opens them when shown how. Another thing about tagging, Johnny up the road has a deer licence and doesn't go to game dealers use his tags. Theres several loop holes

4200fps

This is wrong but a fact. Alot of rangers not them all but some are called to inspect grounds by the NWPS to insure there is deer for first time applicants. You know what some do is walk a field or two and see tracks and see no deer. Licence granted and the place lamped alive at night. Rangers are too soft and don't realise whats going on. Half to blame in my good opinion and I witnessed this personally

sikahuntejack

(1) Too many hunters have deer permits it seems everyone who shoots has one, A cap has to be put on the amount of permits handed out each year. (2)Anyone who brings in more than 50 deer to the game dealer in one season should not get a permit for the following season we all know to get that amount of deer lamping has to be involved. (3) WHEN YOU SEND BACK THE RETURNS ON HOW MANY DEER YOU SHOT IT SHOULD BE CHECKED WITH THE GAME DEALERS TO SEE HOW MANY YOU DROPPED INTO THEM, IF THE NUMBERS DONT ADD UP YOU SHOULD NEVER BE ISSUED WITH A DEER PERMIT AGAIN, :mad:

The Aussie

4200fps wrote: »

Rangers are too soft and don't realise whats going on.

I feel sorry for the Rangers, as with a lot of government departments they have had their budgets slashed and their hands tied by a lack luster legal system, wait and see what happens to this Bozo in Kanturk who was caught dead to rights with a Kerry Red, you could not find a better prosecution, albeit thanks to a Taxidermist who handed it to them on a plate.
The Rangers would know where there were Deer 4 months ago they have now been decimated, must be a frustrating job to be honest.

PL05

Never agreed with the sale of wild venison and certainly not by so called professional hunters have,nt said that if the ordinary hunter sells one or two to cover expenses i don,t think its going to impact too much on the herd. But maybe a ban on these so called professionals, the people who have made a buisness of the sale of wild venison. this could be the way forward and maybe put a cap on the amount of deer sold by any one person or group say 5 per season. This should keep the game dealers going and at the same time stamp out the greedy pr***s that are exploiting the situation at the moment. Probably going to be lashed out of it here because of these comments but really dont give a s**t, my opinion. Whenever this subject comes up i always think about my good friend and stalking buddy who sadly is,nt with us any more. He spoke of this many times and was dead against the sale of wild venison. He said that " the sale of wild venison will eventually sound the death nell for this sport as there will be too much greed for cash" think he was right. I suppose like most sports, when money comes into it, it destroys the sport itself. As i said before on another thread deer stalking is a privilege and it should never be a buisness.

PL05

sikahuntejack wrote: »

(1) Too many hunters have deer permits it seems everyone who shoots has one, A cap has to be put on the amount of permits handed out each year. (2)Anyone who brings in more than 50 deer to the game dealer in one season should not get a permit for the following season we all know to get that amount of deer lamping has to be involved. (3) WHEN YOU SEND BACK THE RETURNS ON HOW MANY DEER YOU SHOT IT SHOULD BE CHECKED WITH THE GAME DEALERS TO SEE HOW MANY YOU DROPPED INTO THEM, IF THE NUMBERS DONT ADD UP YOU SHOULD NEVER BE ISSUED WITH A DEER PERMIT AGAIN, :mad:

agree with most of what your saying ie, the part about 50 deer but to cap permits would only hit the ordinary joe soap who only wants to do some recreational stalking and might only take a few for his own use.

rowa

PL05 wrote: »

agree with most of what your saying ie, the part about 50 deer but to cap permits would only hit the ordinary joe soap who only wants to do some recreational stalking and might only take a few for his own use.

Also i know several lads who were out stalking for sport last season and didn't shoot any deer, because of the poaching and the deer are gone extremely wary. Just because someone has a licence doesn't mean they have shot deer.

ah sure !

having a limit on the number of deer permits being issued will not stop the problem , as it was said before it will only affect the ordinary lad shooting a couple of deer a year . I would introduce a bag limit , i hear some guys shoot 50 or 100 a year , this is crazy.
This could be enforced with tags, you cannot move a dead deer without a tag on it. You get X amount of tags per year.
Game dealers cannot accept a deer without a tag and when stopped on the road by Garda no tag = big fine.

Poaching will always exists but surely it should be possible to slow it down. Poland and France are doing a good job at it , you would be in BIG trouble with a deer in the boot that has no tag , same for woodcock and hares.

But for this to work the authorities must care and genuinely do something about it .

sikahuntejack

50 to 100 deer is a lot for anyone to shoot but there is lads who shoot up to 250 deer The rangers and game dealers know who they are yet every years they get their permits ,Tags is the answer 5 tags issued with all permits every tag after that 30 euro, i would be happy with 5 deer in a season last year i got 3

rowa

But coillte want deer gone , they are nothing but a pest to them that damage trees and cost money, so to them the poaching is a blessing in disguise.

wexfordman2

sikahuntejack wrote: »

(1) Too many hunters have deer permits it seems everyone who shoots has one, A cap has to be put on the amount of permits handed out each year. (2)Anyone who brings in more than 50 deer to the game dealer in one season should not get a permit for the following season we all know to get that amount of deer lamping has to be involved. (3) WHEN YOU SEND BACK THE RETURNS ON HOW MANY DEER YOU SHOT IT SHOULD BE CHECKED WITH THE GAME DEALERS TO SEE HOW MANY YOU DROPPED INTO THEM, IF THE NUMBERS DONT ADD UP YOU SHOULD NEVER BE ISSUED WITH A DEER PERMIT AGAIN, :mad:

How would you propose capping the number of permits? A lottery, first come first served, rotating them, a ban on new applications?

Baring in mind that the deer licences is what allows most to retain a firearms licence, then not getting the deer licence puts the firearms licence at risk! If you don't have a deer licence at renewal time, your likely to get refused your firearm licence.

With numbers mentioned of 50 to 250 deer taken by individuals, if that's the case, then that would need to be addressed but I would say that the amount of people taking this high number is quite low.

Would the effort not best be focused on game dealers and those selling to them? How any game dealers are there in the country?

I think there are 5000 odd deer permits given out each year, it's hard to keep tabs on this amount of people, but much easier to keep tabs on the dealers.

mrbrianj

The powers that be, Agri and coillte and the like, have the goal of controlling numbers of deer below a certain level.(seems like anything close to 0 will do)

But reading some of the posts I wonder does what seems to be the accepted deer management apply to Ireland, our land ownership(permission) coillte leases etc.
controlling the herd and selecting stags works fine if you have 10,000arces of the Scottish highland under your control- just not sure how workable this is in Ireland.

One shot on kill

I get one deer this year it will make it all worth while for me anyway.

There was 4500 approx licenses issued last year. How many lads take more than let's just say 5-10 deer in a hear Very few in Comparison to the numbers I would think.

I be fairly confident in saying the npws or the rangers do t have the resources or body's to do a proper count of deer on any land. So its all guestimates I'd say.

Lads just be very carefull in what you wish for because it will only have a drastic effect on the genuine guys who shoot for sport and food. Lets face it there is a serious reputation for the honest guy suffering in this country. And I. My opinion tho he are hard enough.

Have a zero tolerance approach to poachers. As in 3-4-5000 euro fine or 3 months in prison. Gun chopped and never issued a firearm or hunting license again. Anyone caught in the car van or jeep gets there gun chopped and licenses lost. Irregaress wheather they bave they at the time. Then if caught again it obviously more severe.

A couple of guys caught and severely punished would send fair shock waves make people think twice.

0 tolerance and 0 chance to explain and defend themselves.

And leave every one else alone.

The Aussie

There won't be any caps on Licence numbers, what you might find is the minimum Acreage required start going up from the 100 Acres of present.

One shot on kill wrote: »

Have a zero tolerance approach to poachers. As in 3-4-5000 euro fine or 3 months in prison. Gun chopped and never issued a firearm or hunting license again. Anyone caught in the car van or jeep gets there gun chopped and licenses lost. Irregaress wheather they bave they at the time. Then if caught again it obviously more severe.

A couple of guys caught and severely punished would send fair shock waves make people think twice.

0 tolerance and 0 chance to explain and defend themselves.

And leave every one else alone.

That would be a great example to set, but I don't think there is the Political or Departmental will required for it, at present there isn't anyway....

One shot on kill

No but what will happen is the genuine guys will be creased. If it does happen they will be on here given out aswell.

PL05

rowa wrote: »

But coillte want deer gone , they are nothing but a pest to them that damage trees and cost money, so to them the poaching is a blessing in disguise.

I honestly don,t think this is the case. coillte have very strict rules in place with regard to hunting on its lands. Yes deer can do a lot of damage to trees etc which is why they allow deer to be hunted on its lands in the first place but every season they have a cull figure and its always fairly low numbers when you take into account the areas involved, as on some days you could see very few deer and you could see large amounts on another day, its a hard one to call as the deer are constantly on the move. With regard to poaching i suppose with cut backs going on everywhere and considering the massive amount of coillte lands its near impossible to monitor or control poaching, but it does happen quite a lot in forest areas. also what has,nt been mentioned here is that poaching is,nt only carried out using guns. Deer are also been hunted by gangs of people with lurcher type dogs which is becoming very popular especially with young lads and its going on all year round. This has to be having an effect on the population as theres no such interest in selection etc. ie, stags, hinds, heavely pregnant hinds, calves, orphaned calves etc etc, think you get my drift, are all targets to these people.

rowa

PL05 wrote: »

I honestly don,t think this is the case. coillte have very strict rules in place with regard to hunting on its lands. Yes deer can do a lot of damage to trees etc which is why they allow deer to be hunted on its lands in the first place but every season they have a cull figure and its always fairly low numbers when you take into account the areas involved, as on some days you could see very few deer and you could see large amounts on another day, its a hard one to call as the deer are constantly on the move. With regard to poaching i suppose with cut backs going on everywhere and considering the massive amount of coillte lands its near impossible to monitor or control poaching, but it does happen quite a lot in forest areas. also what has,nt been mentioned here is that poaching is,nt only carried out using guns. Deer are also been hunted by gangs of people with lurcher type dogs which is becoming very popular especially with young lads and its going on all year round. This has to be having an effect on the population as theres no such interest in selection etc. ie, stags, hinds, heavely pregnant hinds, calves, orphaned calves etc etc, think you get my drift, are all targets to these people.

What do coillte get back from deer shooting on their land though ? Apart from the money they get from lettings the deer are a nuisance and probably doesn't cover the cost of lost trees or damage done.
As for the scrap metal community out with lurchers etc, the rangers/gardai are on a hiding to nothing there also, any arrests for trespass or poaching ( if a ranger or guard was stupid enough to try to arrest them in an isolated field at night) leads to accusations of racism etc. ask any guard and they'll tell you all about it.

PL05

rowa wrote: »

What do coillte get back from deer shooting on their land though ? Apart from the money they get from lettings the deer are a nuisance and probably doesn't cover the cost of lost trees or damage done.
As for the scrap metal community out with lurchers etc, the rangers/gardai are on a hiding to nothing there also, any arrests for trespass or poaching ( if a ranger or guard was stupid enough to try to arrest them in an isolated field at night) leads to accusations of racism etc. ask any guard and they'll tell you all about it.

coillte do arrange culling themselves also. but ive read somewhere that deer are essential for bio diversity, now im not a bioligist but by this i take it that they are needed but within numbers that are in ballance with their habitat. now i could be wrong so im open to corection, so if this is true i cant see coillte wanting them wiped out. With regard to hunting with dogs, its not only the srap metal community thats involved in this and thats a fact, and the powers that be can do more about it, they,re just not arsed about it, these dogs and lads with all their gear dont walk to these areas to do this, their dogs cars etc should be conviscated. Seriously would you eat the meat from a deer thats been chased and mauled by dogs, i would,nt so i can safely assume these animals are,nt been hunted for meat, maybe for the dogs and thats if the pricks take them home at all. i,ve heard that most of the time they leave them lying around where they kill them. This type of poaching is probably more damaging than others but its all wrong and seriously needs to be stamped out.

323

rowa wrote: »

But coillte want deer gone , they are nothing but a pest to them that damage trees and cost money, so to them the poaching is a blessing in disguise.

Agree 100%

PL05 wrote: »

I honestly don,t think this is the case. coillte have very strict rules in place with regard to hunting on its lands. Yes deer can do a lot of damage to trees etc which is why they allow deer to be hunted on its lands in the first place but every season they have a cull figure and its always fairly low numbers when you take into account the areas involved, as on some days you could see very few deer and you could see large amounts on another day, its a hard one to call as the deer are constantly on the move. With regard to poaching i suppose with cut backs going on everywhere and considering the massive amount of coillte lands its near impossible to monitor or control poaching, but it does happen quite a lot in forest areas. also what has,nt been mentioned here is that poaching is,nt only carried out using guns. Deer are also been hunted by gangs of people with lurcher type dogs which is becoming very popular especially with young lads and its going on all year round. This has to be having an effect on the population as theres no such interest in selection etc. ie, stags, hinds, heavely pregnant hinds, calves, orphaned calves etc etc, think you get my drift, are all targets to these people.

I honestly used to think like that also before I became disillusioned, or was it got sense.

Once heard that "one deer in Ireland is one too many", that was in Coillte's headquarters.

NPWS will still issue a Section 42 for red hinds with calf in the middle of summer if you are next to a bit of Coillte forestry. Coillte and NWPS are joined at the hip. Bit out of touch now but a few years ago most of their senior personnel of both came from the old Forestry Commission.

Grizzly 45

As I have said for three seasons running on this.SHUT OFF THE MONEY INCENTIVE.It is too easy for commercial hunters to pitch up at a game dealer with 25 to whatever deer a week in a trailer and the GD is buying them no questions asked,paying whatever the price per kilo is,and selling the best parts for over 1005 profit on what he paid the shooter.I dont care how good a hunter you are,no one shoots 200 deer legally a month.Even well run European commercial consortiums do not shoot that amount.

We have the vicious circle of farmers and NPWS/Coilte seeing deer as vermin and best removed ASAP,so they are hardly going to moan about a free service more or less.The GD isnt going to say diddly,as he is getting raw material for pennies on the pound.Only people that are being the PITA are the ligitimate shooters as usual.:rolleyes: We see the damage being done,but are tied as we need the good will of the farmers/Coilte to shoot on their lands.

So whats to be done??The paperwork isnt being inspected properly obviously in the NPWS from shooters and stalkers. Anyone bringing in more than 10 deer a month,or from the same household should be setting off alarm bells.This should launch an investigation of both GD and shooter and his let as to how this let supports this many deer.
Why isn't this happening??No budget,NPWS rangers only wanting to tackle "100% sure things."And the revelant paperwork killing them from getting out into the field
And above all we need to know on average how many deer there really is out there.No point on relying on the shooting returns as it is dubious at best and under reported with the amount of shooting going on.

The simplest solution will be a simple moratorium on selling any carcasses ,bar farmed deer to game dealers for five years.That will one get the cowboys out of busisness as there is no easy money anymore.
It would also take the commercial hunting pressure off the herds to give them a chance to recuperate and possibly get some trophies maturing back in the wild.


END the Section 42s as well.It is laughable that we cannot use deer repellant scents and devices to keep deer out of crops and plantations like they must use in Europe in off season.But I would open the season in August! and close both on Jan31st

PL05

Grizzly45 has good points here especially with regards to commercial outfits and section 42s. We all know that when livelyhoods such as farming etc are affected by deer damage the farmers in question want them gone and its not beyond them to take matters into their own hands so thats 42s out the window. With regard to commercial outfits, apart from over shooting i have a sneaking feeling that these groups are handing over large amounts of cash to land owners to secure the shooting on their lands which is again pushing the ordinary lads out. I used to have permissions that where fantastic for stalking with plenty of animals now i wont say where, but i had them for a long time, then all of a sudden for no good reason the owners would,nt sign for me, i could,nt understand why and when i asked them why they gave the same answer, they just did,nt want anyone shooting their land anymore. then one day online i saw a video of lads hunting deer and i assumed it was a commercial outfit. i.e, shooting guides. But i would swear that the lands being used where my old permissions.

strangles

Ive been saying it for years,theres 2 much money out of selling deer.I can assure ye one thing lads its not just the game dealers that's reaping the rewards,everyone involved,that includes people at top,have a hand in the cookie jar

sikahuntejack

Ban section (42) If a farmer has a problem with deer he should have to wait till the deer season starts to sort it out farmers always moan, its either too wet ,either too dry , not getting enought of a grant , With every permit handed out 5 tags are issued anymore after that costs . Would love to see the deer season starting for both stags and femals starting november the first this would save the stags from being slaughtered durning the rutt :mad: