Cork Man Admits Killing Protected Red Stag

dev110

RT&#201 wrote:

A 37-year-old man has pleaded guilty at Killarney District Court to two charges relating to the shooting of a protected red deer stag and cutting the animal's body in half.
Richard Cullinane of Lisnacon, Kanturk, Co Cork was traced after he brought the front quarters of the deer to a taxidermist to be mounted as a hunting trophy.
Judge James O'Connor adjourned sentencing for a fortnight.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0903/471950-stag-court/

WDAI FB Page wrote:

Reported on the RTE website this evening. As a result of a combined effort between the WDAI & NPWS staff a successful prosecution was brought against Kanturk man, Richard Cullinane for shooting a protected Red Stag in Co. Kerry.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Wild-Deer-Association-of-Ireland/125121684177148?hc_location=stream

Good to see efforts being made to help stop poaching and get the individuals involved prosecuted.

PL05

here here.

One shot on kill

Internet is very slow tonite and won't load the article. Who reported h was it the taxidermist

dev110

From my reading I think it was the taxidermist that reported it.

feargale

Can I suggest you wait for the sentence before celebrating?

charlie10

for him to have told the taxidermist did he (A)not realise he shouldnt have shot a red stag in kerry or (B)thrust the taxidermist.

thelurcher

Had heard this was coming up alright. Farmers were not happy over what was going on. Many of us like to see the reds around that area and a few of the stags were shot there around the same time - one right next to a farmers house. Also had the most of the carcass left behind - not saying he was behind it of course.
He has also been stirring **** around his home place for years - giving out about hunting :rolleyes: - ah well you reap what you sow.

Sad thing is that we all know he'll only get a slap on the wrist - would love to see him doing a bit of time - if only a week. Nothing personal but it would just surely send out the right message.

thelurcher

There should be another case coming before the courts after another guy was caught shooting just up the road last March/April - according to what I've heard.
Fair dues to the rangers in the area - the place was turning into a free-for-all.

dodderangler

It wouldn't surprise me if he gets a small fine and slap on the wrist.
He should get time and never to own a firearm again.

Was the gun even legally owned and in his name

Half-cocked

Even if he only gets a slap on the wrist, surely the local Super should be able revoke his license? On the grounds that he was using his firearm for an illegal activity?

thelurcher

dodderangler wrote: »

It wouldn't surprise me if he gets a small fine and slap on the wrist.
He should get time and never to own a firearm again.

Was the gun even legally owned and in his name

For some reason the Guards are very reluctant to take the guns off people - everyone has pull of some sort so there's always some sergeant, super or TD fighting a fellas corner. At worst they just take it off the person until the fuss dies down - then they get it back. Seen this happen way too often. Same few nutters shooting at us year after year

Cass

thelurcher wrote: »

Sad thing is that we all know he'll only get a slap on the wrist -........

Not saying poaching of any breed of deer is okay, but if someone is caught poaching other deer during the season it's a "common" offence. However with the Kerry Reds they are highly protected with no season so the punishment should be harsher.

thelurcher wrote: »

For some reason the Guards are very reluctant to take the guns off people ........

Keeping in mind the above it is not fault of the Gardaí. The law only allows for certain punishments for certain offences. I believe it's section 73 of the wildlife act that details what can and cannot be done in terms of an offence.

A minimum fine of €500 for the first offence, and €1,000 for second or other offences is set. Removal of firearms can only be done under certain circumstances and where the person is shown to be a repeat offender. Even if the firearm is taken from the person there are still options. Such as the courts/Gardaí selling it and the money going to the exchequer, sold and the owner given the money, etc. So to an extent their hands are tied.

dodderangler

So it's basically down to the judge on the day.?

Cass

Multiple factors;

• Judge on the day
• Severity of sentence s/he can justly apply
• First offence or not
• Community/public opinions based on media coverage
• etc.

dodderangler

He should be fined, jailed and have his firearms licence taken off him.
Poaching deer is a crime but I'd assume poaching Kerry red deer is a hell of alot worse

Sparks

Half-cocked wrote: »

Even if he only gets a slap on the wrist, surely the local Super should be able revoke his license? On the grounds that he was using his firearm for an illegal activity?

The super has a very wide range of grounds to use to revoke someone's licence. If, for example, someone was shown to be poaching with a licenced firearm, then that's breaching the terms of the original licence and the super can yank it for that.

5.— (1) An issuing person may at any time revoke a firearm certificate granted by the person if satisfied that the holder of the certificate --
...
(d) where the firearm certificate limits the purposes for which the firearm to which it relates may be used, is using the firearm for purposes not authorised by the certificate,
(e) has not complied with a condition attached to the grant of the certificate

(in other words, once the court case is done, the super has the authority to revoke the licence using the conviction as grounds)

Deerspotter

I heard from an unreliable source that the poaching of a red stag in Kerry was the only crime still punishable by the death sentence in Ireland, as it was an old archaic British planters law that was still in-place!

If that was the case, it would be the end of poaching Kerry Reds!

Sparks

I think we can safely call horse hockey on that one Deerspotter

Deerspotter

Yep - agreed. But Jaysus it would achieve the desired result!

stoeger2000

Deerspotter wrote: »

Yep - agreed. But Jaysus it would achieve the desired result!

Because it works elsewhere????

FlushBang2013

how did they trace a deer back or know it was from kerry?

Nino Brown

stoeger2000 wrote: »

Because it works elsewhere????

Have you heard of a dead man poaching?

dodderangler

FlushBang2013 wrote: »

how did they trace a deer back or know it was from kerry?

The thick Kerry accent on them is a dead giveaway

Cass

FlushBang2013 wrote: »

how did they trace a deer back or know it was from kerry?

Only a guess but i'm sure they took samples and tested the genus and most likely made their decision on that.

Savage93

FlushBang2013 wrote: »

how did they trace a deer back or know it was from kerry?

DNA testing remains left behind with head/cape

FlushBang2013

At least they are trying to catch these fellos

Deerspotter

stoeger2000 wrote: »

Because it works elsewhere????

Does it?

The Aussie

FlushBang2013 wrote: »

how did they trace a deer back or know it was from kerry?

He did not contest it was from Kerry, so him admitting it was a Kerry Red helped, he is blaming poor identification of the said Deer.

A Trophy Red and a Trophy Sika are a fair distance apart, especially seems he identified it as a Trophy animal by only taking enough for a shoulder mount.

So in essence he is pleading ignorance in a vain attempt for lenience.

Birdnuts

Cass wrote: »

Not saying poaching of any breed of deer is okay, but if someone is caught poaching other deer during the season it's a "common" offence. However with the Kerry Reds they are highly protected with no season so the punishment should be harsher.

Keeping in mind the above it is not fault of the Gardaí. The law only allows for certain punishments for certain offences. I believe it's section 73 of the wildlife act that details what can and cannot be done in terms of an offence.

A minimum fine of €500 for the first offence, and €1,000 for second or other offences is set. Removal of firearms can only be done under certain circumstances and where the person is shown to be a repeat offender. Even if the firearm is taken from the person there are still options. Such as the courts/Gardaí selling it and the money going to the exchequer, sold and the owner given the money, etc. So to an extent their hands are tied.

Todays Irish Times mentions fines and a prison sentence of up to 3 months. I remember back in the 80's a case involving Italian hunters who shot 2 swans on a local lake. They had their firearms confiscated and were strongly advised to leave the country immediately or face some quality time behind bars.

Cass

Birdnuts wrote: »

Todays Irish Times mentions fines and a prison sentence of up to 3 months. .

Mentions being the key word.

The maximum fine for firearm offences is €25,000+ and up to 5 years imprisonment. Yet i have never heard of a single case of this happening.

What can be done to what is done is very different.

stoeger2000

Deerspotter wrote: »

Does it?

Of course not, has never worked anywhere!! Doesn't matter what punishment is gonna be dished out, some people will still take their chances at getting caught.

PL05

not sure of the geography here but as kerry has a border with cork does a kerry red stag become a cork red stag if he crosses the border and as such is he fair game despite d.n.a. correct me if im wrong and i know this deer was taken in kerry but does anyone think this is possible.

garv123

PL05 wrote: »

not sure of the geography here but as kerry has a border with cork does a kerry red stag become a cork red stag if he crosses the border and as such is he fair game despite d.n.a. correct me if im wrong and i know this deer was taken in kerry but does anyone think this is possible.

Ask The Emperor Stag of Exmoor about that when he wandered out of the park..

PL05

garv123 wrote: »

Emperor Stag of Exmoor about that when he wandered out of the park.. [/QUOTE
Not been funny with ye but i did,nt get what ye mean there.

thelurcher

PL05 wrote: »

not sure of the geography here but as kerry has a border with cork does a kerry red stag become a cork red stag if he crosses the border and as such is he fair game despite d.n.a. correct me if im wrong and i know this deer was taken in kerry but does anyone think this is possible.

Once it crosses the border then it's fair game. I've seen them around it but still wouldn't shoot one.
Most of the lads with permission and lots of the farmers around there are the same.
It's not about obeying the rule of law but just that we like seeing them around and they've taken a fair hammering in recent years.

garv123

PL05 wrote: »

Not been funny with ye but i did,nt get what ye mean there.

Left some out of my post.

he was the UK's largest stag and wandered out of the park where he was safe and got shot.

PL05

garv123 wrote: »

Left some out of my post.

he was the UK's largest stag and wandered out of the park where he was safe and got shot.

now i get it. thanks

PL05

thelurcher wrote: »

Once it crosses the border then it's fair game. I've seen them around it but still wouldn't shoot one.
Most of the lads with permission and lots of the farmers around there are the same.
It's not about obeying the rule of law but just that we like seeing them around and they've taken a fair hammering in recent years.

i know what your saying and i completely agree. i have had permissions in kerry for a long time and in areas where red stags where in abundance but i have to say, if you where allowed to shoot them and please note i,d never dream of shooting one but if you were it would be to easy, any ones i,ve stumbled upon just jumped up. ran about 30-40 yards, stopped and turned and had a good long look at me. magnificent animals, just a pleasure to be that close to one.

dodderangler

PL05 wrote: »

now i get it. thanks

Fcuk me he's some lump of a stag
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/oct/25/exmoor-emperor-stag-shot-dead

TriggerPL

Lads there was no mention of poaching !

No he should not of shot the deer in Kerry!

no he should not of left half of it behind .

And as for getting it stuffed he should have had a better story or something .

All that aside . Take his firearms licence yes and no !

The reason I say no is cause it would have been tempting for a lot of hunters if it was a trophy stag .

Big fine like 2000 grand yea community service like 400 hours yea def !

But jail def not ! He killed a protected animal not a human and if we let it get to that stage then the antis have another card up there sleeve .

There is not room in prision for drug dealers and sex offenders . Scum that hassle us on a Day to day basics . But yet a call for jail for a man that shot a deer , or the 84 year old woman who didn pay a fine .

What the hell is wrong with us as a society !

tomtucker81

TriggerPl wrote:

Lads there was no mention of poaching !

No he should not of shot the deer in Kerry!

^^^ the fact that he shot a red deer in kerry, is that not poaching in itself?

Cass

TriggerPL wrote: »

Lads there was no mention of poaching !

Poaching is implied by the illegal killing, trapping, or hunting of an animal. Yes it's usually associated with land trespass, but that it not a prerequisite.

And as for getting it stuffed he should have had a better story or something

So if he covered his tracks better and no one was any the wiser it's fine?

The reason I say no is cause it would have been tempting for a lot of hunters if it was a trophy stag .

That still does not excuse the act. So if you cannot be trusted to remain within the law with your firearms then have them removed. By doing so the temptation is removed.

But jail def not ! He killed a protected animal not a human and if we let it get to that stage then the antis have another card up there sleeve .

He will not get jail.

I've said this two or three times now. No first time poacher gets jail. They get a fine, and possibly loss of firearm. That's it.

What the hell is wrong with us as a society !

What is wrong?

We are sick of this kind of thing being excused away, treated with little seriousness by the courts, and lads basically walking away. The call for jail may seem harsh but it is more of an outcry than a real call for punishment ( for most i'd say).

If a drink driver was caught would you petition for him to have his driving license back? Would you be happy with him getting a fine and then being allowed to drive again. I wouldn't. If you take his car or license he cannot drive. Same with poachers. Take the tools they use away and they cannot function.

If he was a hunter he should have known better. If he was knew he should have educated himself. If he is a repeat offender or this is the first time he was caught then he deserves whatever is coming his way.

TriggerPL

tomtucker81 wrote: »

Triggerpl wrote:

Lads there was no mention of poaching !

No he should not of shot the deer in Kerry!

^^^ the fact that he shot a red deer in kerry, is that not poaching in itself?

Of course ur right ! I got blind sighted buy the fack deer poaching is normally asoitated with lads lamping them .

It's early in the morning where I am I've just woke to read all this .

TriggerPL

Cass wrote: »

Poaching is implied by the illegal killing, trapping, or hunting of an animal. Yes it's usually associated with land trespass, but that it not a prerequisite.


So if he covered his tracks better and no one was any the wiser it's fine?


That still does not excuse the act. So if you cannot be trusted to remain within the law with your firearms then have them removed. By doing so the temptation is removed.


He will not get jail.

I've said this two or three times now. No first time poacher gets jail. They get a fine, and possibly loss of firearm. That's it.

What is wrong?

We are sick of this kind of thing being excused away, treated with little seriousness by the courts, and lads basically walking away. The call for jail may seem harsh but it is more of an outcry than a real call for punishment ( for most i'd say).

If a drink driver was caught would you petition for him to have his driving license back? Would you be happy with him getting a fine and then being allowed to drive again. I wouldn't. If you take his car or license he cannot drive. Same with poachers. Take the tools they use away and they cannot function.

If he was a hunter he should have known better. If he was knew he should have educated himself. If he is a repeat offender or this is the first time he was caught then he deserves whatever is coming his way.

Cass I agree with what your saying .

But take the man for example he brought the animal to get stuffed , clearly showing that he not switched on at all in the first place thinking that he wasn't going to get caught . And wasn't educated at all . So over all is this lad an asshole. Yes def and make it hard for the rest of us .

But using ur example drink driver gets back on the road at some stage . If he has his licence removed it gone for a very long time if ever get it back at all .

Do u not think 2000 or 3000 grand and community service is a fitting punishment I wouldn't shoot one again that's for sure

tomtucker81

Cass wrote: »

Mentions being the key word.

The maximum fine for firearm offences is €25,000+ and up to 5 years imprisonment. Yet i have never heard of a single case of this happening.

What can be done to what is done is very different.

Fines of that amount can only be handed out by the circuit court, similarly a prison sentence of more than two years can only be handed out in circuit court.
as this is in the district court, maximum fine is about €2000 or €2500, and maximum sentence for one offence on its own is one year.

TriggerPL

And cass the court is treating these cases more seriously then rape and drugs and assaults cases offences against other humans .

That's where the whole thing is wrong !

tomtucker81

Do u not think 2000 or 3000 grand and community service is a fitting punishment I wouldn't shoot one again that's for sure

^^^not a chance of a fine like that. It would be a serious deterrent to others, but it wont happen.

TriggerPL

tomtucker81 wrote: »

Do u not think 2000 or 3000 grand and community service is a fitting punishment I wouldn't shoot one again that's for sure

^^^not a chance of a fine like that. It would be a serious deterrent to others, but it wont happen.

Lad we know that but it would be a serious place to start against combatting this problem if it arises

Cass

TriggerPL wrote: »

But take the man for example he brought the animal to get stuffed , clearly showing that he not switched on at all in the first place thinking that he wasn't going to get caught . And wasn't educated at all . So over all is this lad an asshole. Yes def and make it hard for the rest of us .

Answer this then. How did he get the gun license?

1. Either he got it for the purpose of target shooting and is hunting with it outside the condition of his license.
2. He got it for target shooting and hunting but has no deer license in which case he knew what he was doing was wrong.
3. He has a deer license and unless he has lost the ability to read the back of it, allowing for the fact it might have been his first season, he still has no excuse.

Simple fact is he thought no on else would ask, concern themselves and most likely (i'm guessing here) he believed the taxidermist would be more interested in the money for the job than doing the right thing.

But using ur example drink driver gets back on the road at some stage . If he has his licence removed it gone for a very long time if ever get it back at all .

But he has the chance to get it back, same as a drink driver. However i'm not too interested in trying to compare one with the other to every little point. I took it as a quick example for comparison sake in terms of removing the offending objects or ability to cause harm.

Do u not think 2000 or 3000 grand and community service is a fitting punishment I wouldn't shoot one again that's for sure

I do. If i recall correctly i never called for him to be given jail because, as i've repeatedly said, he will not get it. I've seen worse cases with no jail time handed out. However, and again read the legislation, a judge is limited as to what they can hand out in terms of punishment. The maximum fine for the first offence is €1,000. So it cannot exceed that amount.

And cass the court is treating these cases more seriously then rape and drugs and assaults cases offences against other humans .

That's where the whole thing is wrong !

Where are you getting your facts. No they are not. The last few cases of poaching, even the serious ones where vans, cars, and trailers full of deer were seized, were handled with fines, and loss of property. NO JAIL TIME.

zen260

well I know of a guy that shot a fecken cormorant in 2010 and he got a €600 fine and a month in prison and lost his guns forever??now that's crazy considering it was his first offence,also its not that long ago you were paid to shoot cormorants by the fisheries board here in mayo anyway,,so I wouldnt fancy being on the receiving of his sentence when it comes to trial,but ya I think he should be screwed and for sure have his revoked,

dodderangler

feck that mate. thats rough going.