A boat full of carbs

petethedrummer

I think the correct way to train without food is to eat well the night before, get up the next morning and go out without a breakfast (obviously bring some food in case you need some).

I think it is slightly different to eating just before going out and hoping not to eat anytime soon. Also if you feel hungry don't try to ignore it because you are trying to fast. Eat.

I haven't tried it. Though I might give it a shot next time I go cycling. I have avoided this kind of carry on because it would look utterly mental to someone observing me.

DaithiMC

AstraMonti wrote: »

I don't see this diet as just a diet, more like a way of life from now on. Having read so much stuff lately about nutrition, I am conviced that the food pyramid as currently presented is a huge load of rubbish. If I change something it would be maybe moving more towards the paleo approach, incorporating some more carbs mainly from vegs and fruits.

On the performance side of things, you can create glycogen from multiple sources, fat included when are you past ketosis. It takes longer though to create from fat than from simple carbs.

Have you had your cholesterol numbers or other markers tested to see if you are moving in the right direction before you make that claim? The reason I say it is, one man's poison.....etc. I have tried with various fasting diets and noticed considerable drop in LDL, triglycerides and although it wasn't high, HbA1c. I would not be quick to take what one person in a video said was their experience and morph it to my own - he did say it can be different for different people so you should at least get your Doc to do a workup on cholesterol\lipids and the diabetes markers, glucose tolerance, HbA1c, etc.

I think losing weight is a good thing but it is only one datapoint and if you are considering this a lifestyle you should test a few other important health markers.

Personally I think we are as a society overloaded with fast\simple sugars so we could do with a drastic cut back on that, but that may be where the imbalance is and shifting that to another imbalance in protein and\or fats may not be a sustainable "lifestyle" either.

ford2600

Also if you feel hungry don't try to ignore it because you are trying to fast. Eat.

I agree with this if it is hunger and not a sugar craving. I didn't know the difference before but now I do. I often felt very hungry 1.5 hrs after eating a large meal.
That wasn't hunger I was feeling.
Peter Attia in one of his videos says some of his clients adapt immediately without issue while others struggle.
I guess we are not all the same and there is no universal correct diet

ford2600

DaithiMC wrote: »

Have you had your cholesterol numbers or other markers tested to see if you are moving in the right direction before you make that claim? The reason I say it is, one man's poison.....etc. I have tried with various fasting diets and noticed considerable drop in LDL, triglycerides and although it wasn't high, HbA1c. I would not be quick to take what one person in a video said was their experience and morph it to my own - he did say it can be different for different people so you should at least get your Doc to do a workup on cholesterol\lipids and the diabetes markers, glucose tolerance, HbA1c, etc.

I think losing weight is a good thing but it is only one datapoint and if you are considering this a lifestyle you should test a few other important health markers.

Personally I think we are as a society overloaded with fast\simple sugars so we could do with a drastic cut back on that, but that may be where the imbalance is and shifting that to another imbalance in protein and\or fats may not be a sustainable "lifestyle" either.

I agree but a huge part of cholesterol issue is how it is presented. The total cholesterol number tells us very little, yet with many doctors it is the only yardstick. Where can you get Apo tests done?
I for different reasons had been following a very strict low fat diet, with no alcohol very active etc. Yet my cholesterol numbers were going in wrong direction, triglycerides vldl ldl etc

I had my bloods checked Wednesday and if op doesn't feel im hijacking thread I will post 3 historical results with new results as soon as I have them.

As for rubbish, I've had doctors tell me to lose 8 pounds because I was 26 on bmi. She told me as I was on treadmill doing stress test. Im very lean and any doctor worth their salt should know if I have excess fat at a glance.

ffs bmi indexing was invented by a Belgian with many strings to his bow, but medicine wasn't one of them. Yet it's stuck to the wall of every gps surgery

DaithiMC

ford2600 wrote: »

I agree but a huge part of cholesterol issue is how it is presented. The total cholesterol number tells us very little, yet with many doctors it is the only yardstick. Where can you get Apo tests done?
I for different reasons had been following a very strict low fat diet, with no alcohol very active etc. Yet my cholesterol numbers were going in wrong direction, triglycerides vldl ldl etc

I had my bloods checked Wednesday and if op doesn't feel im hijacking thread I will post 3 historical results with new results as soon as I have them.

As for rubbish, I've had doctors tell me to lose 8 pounds because I was 26 on bmi. She told me as I was on treadmill doing stress test. Im very lean and any doctor worth their salt should know if I have excess fat at a glance.

ffs bmi indexing was invented by a Belgian with many strings to his bow, but medicine wasn't one of them. Yet it's stuck to the wall of every gps surgery

Understood - Ratio of Total over HDL is usually what is cited now - at least that's what my Doc said to me last time I was there. As I said a number of datapoints are needed to get any sort of picture so I agree that just stating total cholesterol is meaningless in and of itself. As I mentioned, I tried long, intermittent fasts and reduced all regularly tested markers, weight, TC, trigs, LDL, HDL (went up a little but thats the right direction for it), HbA1c, abdominal fat.... I'm sure BMI was also lowered but I tried not to get hung up on weight as I think that's the course to failure to moving to a new lifestyle and why people ping pong in dieting regimes, IMO.

As for BMI, my opinion on that is it needs to be connected to body fat% in someway, probably should never be cited without it but its an easy one for the masses to assess at home.

Having had results now in over a year of the fasting regime, I'm thinking of going down the reduced carbs route but want to do that in a manageable way - probably not to the extent in the video above - I like my food too much!

AstraMonti

ford2600 wrote: »

60km isn't a lot without grub.

No it's really not a lot, but my metabolism was always on a high gear. Before I started this diet, regardless of what I had in the morning I was hungry in less than an hour.

DaithiMC wrote: »

Have you had your cholesterol numbers or other markers tested to see if you are moving in the right direction before you make that claim?

Before continuing (and to keep mods happy) I would like just to remind everyone that this is not a scientific log, I don't claim to have found the ultimate truth nor I am capable of providing any consultation to anyone! I am only formulating opinions of what I 've read, seen and studied so far, nothing more.

Now, regardless of what my cholesterol levels would be I still find the current notion of food pyramid ridiculous. Sugar and wheat are bad for you, you can't possibly suggest to people to start their day with a bowl full of sugar (what all cereal essentially are) and bread. I mean just looking at this I am getting annoyed:

DaithiMC wrote: »

Personally I think we are as a society overloaded with fast\simple sugars so we could do with a drastic cut back on that, but that may be where the imbalance is and shifting that to another imbalance in protein and\or fats may not be a sustainable "lifestyle" either.

I agree, it's unfortunate that it's 2013 and still nutrition is such a hazy cloud of information, it all breaks down to biomechanics but we still have a long way to go to fully understand what each food does to us.

DaithiMC wrote: »

Understood - Ratio of Total over HDL is usually what is cited now - at least that's what my Doc said to me last time I was there. As I said a number of datapoints are needed to get any sort of picture so I agree that just stating total cholesterol is meaningless in and of itself. As I mentioned, I tried long, intermittent fasts and reduced all regularly tested markers, weight, TC, trigs, LDL, HDL (went up a little but thats the right direction for it), HbA1c, abdominal fat.... I'm sure BMI was also lowered but I tried not to get hung up on weight as I think that's the course to failure to moving to a new lifestyle and why people ping pong in dieting regimes, IMO.

I think now I am the healthiest I 've ever been, having cut down dramatically all processed food and sugars, eating more vegs and exercising at least 4 times a week. I did eventually found a doc that would run the Apo-B test along with HDL, LDL and VLDL , it would be interesting to see how this goes, I am going to do the tests on Friday morning.

ford2600 wrote: »

I had my bloods checked Wednesday and if op doesn't feel im hijacking thread I will post 3 historical results with new results as soon as I have them.

Feel free to post them!


My breakfast yesterday was eggs, with bacon and some cheese and spinach. I nibbled on some nuts until around 2 when I had a massive t-bone steak with extra butter on top and rocket salad. Nibbled on some more nuts, had a spoon of nutella and off I went to the gym where I had an hour of painful TRX exercises. After the gym I had a pint of milk with two scoops of protein and off I went to bed.

jag con

Hi i have been following your posts here and over the last 2 weeks i have cut down completely on white bread spuds and pasta. i would have a bowl of porridge or a bowl of pasta before my cycling. But i am just so wrecked with this lack of carbs i am waking up in the morning after 8 hours sleep and feel like i have been dragged through a bush backwards i also have mouth ulcers. I am eating plenty of fruit and veg so just wondering did you go through this yourself and any advice

AstraMonti

Hi jag con, I did go through that but only after training. I had to incorporate some carbs in the form of complex protein. I initially started taking chocolate milk with protein powder but I cut that down and instead I am having a pint of full fat milk with 2 scoops of complex protein (it has a bit of carbs inside).

jag con

AstraMonti wrote: »

Hi jag con, I did go through that but only after training. I had to incorporate some carbs in the form of complex protein. I initially started taking chocolate milk with protein powder but I cut that down and instead I am having a pint of full fat milk with 2 scoops of complex protein (it has a bit of carbs inside).

Cheers but i am fine after training its just during the morning after i wake up i feel wrecked like this morning i woke up and felt like i was out all night and had about a hours sleep ive eaten a apple and banana since then, But i am just wondering is it the body getting used to the lack of bread and spuds etc i am hoping this will go away soon as the weight is falling off me i have lost 5 pounds this week

AstraMonti

Well apple and banana are fruits full of sugar, so essentially you re still having carbs. Also you need to increase the amount of fat and protein you 're eating, your body needs something to replace the carbs you are not eating as bread/spuds etc.

jag con

Cheers yes i think i am getting plenty of protein as i am eating chicken and plenty of white and red meat maybe the sugar from the fruit is causing a spike and then a crash so i will take a look at this. Thanks for the replies i have a lot of weight to lose circa 20kg overall so i will have to do some more research on this.

pprendeville

jag con wrote: »

Hi i have been following your posts here and over the last 2 weeks i have cut down completely on white bread spuds and pasta. i would have a bowl of porridge or a bowl of pasta before my cycling. But i am just so wrecked with this lack of carbs i am waking up in the morning after 8 hours sleep and feel like i have been dragged through a bush backwards i also have mouth ulcers. I am eating plenty of fruit and veg so just wondering did you go through this yourself and any advice

White bread spuds? Never tried them. Any good?

jag con

pprendeville wrote: »

White bread spuds? Never tried them. Any good?

They are only lovely also known as a chip butty:D:p:D

ford2600

jag con wrote: »

Cheers but i am fine after training its just during the morning after i wake up i feel wrecked like this morning i woke up and felt like i was out all night and had about a hours sleep ive eaten a apple and banana since then, But i am just wondering is it the body getting used to the lack of bread and spuds etc i am hoping this will go away soon as the weight is falling off me i have lost 5 pounds this week

Some people take in too much protein and not enough fat when trying diet.

Also if diet take you away from processed food you need to make sure you have enough salt in diet

petethedrummer

jag con wrote: »

I have a lot of weight to lose circa 20kg overall so i will have to do some more research on this.

Give up all this nonsense. It's calories in vs calories out. Rough calculations suggest that you need to cycle across America 4 times in your fat burning zone.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057077294

ryan_sherlock

jag con wrote: »

ive eaten a apple and banana since then, But i am just wondering is it the body getting used to the lack of bread and spuds etc i am hoping this will go away soon as the weight is falling off me i have lost 5 pounds this week

Looks like the culprit - I tend to only eat fruit during or post (1-2hrs) training. A banana is basically a big bag of sugar nicely presented. Frozen berries I still eat at most times though.

Are you drinking a lot of caffeine? If so, maybe cut back a little for a while to see how it effects sleep.

5 pounds - probably a lot of water weight (probably less toxins in your diet so your body doesn't hold as much water to dilute it) - as another poster said, increase your salt intake a little.

AstraMonti

Soon...

niceonetom

Am I the only one putting on weight on this diet? It's not a lot and I suspect it's muscle from some lifting I'm doing right now but still... mass is mass.

ford2600

21/08/2013 12.12.5
28/08/2013 12.11.8
04/09/2013 12.12.4
13/09/2013 12.12.8
3/10/2013 12.10.04
13/11/2013 12.09.00

I'm losing a little weight(weight loss was never a goal, cholestrol lowering was) but have certainly toned up.

My exercise had been about 10hrs a week on bike down to 4hrs currently with the change of seasons. However currently I'm doing 12-15hrs of very physical work per week. This diet is the business for that, load up at 7.30 eat again around 2-3 even then not usualy hungry.

ryan_sherlock

niceonetom wrote: »

Am I the only one putting on weight on this diet? It's not a lot and I suspect it's muscle from some lifting I'm doing right now but still... mass is mass.

My weight didn't change (maybe heavier) - but I started lean. I feel a lot healthier though - for me that is the win.

niceonetom

ryan_sherlock wrote: »

My weight didn't change (maybe heavier) - but I started lean. I feel a lot healthier though - for me that is the win.

Yeah, I dropped about 3kg and have now put most of that back on so I'm probably a little leaner now too. I'd prefer if the weightgain stopped now though as I usually find it very hard to get though December without accumulating a little ballast. I'll stick to the plan and hopefully burn some of that off in January I guess.

I really need to decide if the weights are worth doing. They make me feel good but seem to stimulate anabolism quite a lot. Good for wellbeing etc. But is that new muscle (some of which is in the upper body though all my lifting is focused on the legs and trunk) actually any use to me as a bike rider? We'll see.

I feel healthier too. I've been paleo(ish) for a little over a year and HFLC for about 3 months so I haven't been low-carb long enough to see any improvement in performance in terms of power (my lack of form at this time of year would hide that anyhow) but endurance seems to be similar now without food to how it was this time last year when I was eating every 30 mins on the bike.

Tec Diver

I've been LCHF since Feb and doubt I've lost weight long term, but I know I did initially (usually associated with water retention). Weight loss isn't a goal for me, health and fitness are. I've lost a good bit of BF%, but gained in muscle, so overall roughly the same weight - although I don't regularly weigh myself.
For me the real benefits are being able to do a 5-6 hour adventure race on only a (carb free) breakfast and only drinking water and taking electrolytes. No gels or anything.
BTW, being able to do a 60k fasted cycle may not sound like much to some, but it's all relative.
Counting calories doesn't work either. A calorie of white bread is not the same as a calorie of (for example) an avocado.

Paul Kiernan

I did 4 hours cycling Tuesday, 2.5 yesterday and will do another 2.5 or so today. Average pace about 75% MaxHR. I've been religiously keeping my carb intake around 50g per day as I'm trying to promote ketosis (now in 3rd week of diet).

Should I be taking some easily absorbed simple carbs during or immediately after these spins or will that undo all the hard work of training on empty?

PS Sorry for 'jacking your thread Astra but this seems to have become the de facto LCHF thread!

AstraMonti

Not a bother feel free to chip in with anything.

I do take carbs after exercise in the form of complex protein as I feel like a bag of potatoes the next day if I don't. If you feel fine (no heavy legs or more tired than normal) I would say skip the carbs and see how it goes. For me everything comes down to how the body feels.

We did another 300 yesterday in the gym, 50 30kg squats, 50 press ups on the bar, 50 bench press 30kgs, 50 squat jumps, 50 pullups and 50 single hand kettlebell swings. I completed it in 23mins. I have to say I really enjoy doing that sort of stuff.

DaithiMC

AstraMonti wrote: »

I do take carbs after exercise in the form of complex protein as I feel like a bag of potatoes the next day if I don't. If you feel fine (no heavy legs or more tired than normal) I would say skip the carbs and see how it goes. For me everything comes down to how the body feels.

I thought that the amino acid formulations were better for recovery as essentially the complex proteins have to be broken down to the AA's to be utilised?

Tec Diver

Paul Kiernan wrote: »

I did 4 hours cycling Tuesday, 2.5 yesterday and will do another 2.5 or so today. Average pace about 75% MaxHR. I've been religiously keeping my carb intake around 50g per day as I'm trying to promote ketosis (now in 3rd week of diet).

Should I be taking some easily absorbed simple carbs during or immediately after these spins or will that undo all the hard work of training on empty?

PS Sorry for 'jacking your thread Astra but this seems to have become the de facto LCHF thread!

No, you don't need them.

AstraMonti

DaithiMC wrote: »

I thought that the amino acid formulations were better for recovery as essentially the complex proteins have to be broken down to the AA's to be utilised?

True, by complex I meant that the powder I am taking has carbs as well.

petethedrummer

Paul Kiernan wrote: »

I did 4 hours cycling Tuesday, 2.5 yesterday and will do another 2.5 or so today. Average pace about 75% MaxHR. I've been religiously keeping my carb intake around 50g per day as I'm trying to promote ketosis (now in 3rd week of diet).

The following comes from stuff I have read but not tried...The only way you are going to definitely know if you are in Ketosis is to get a blood ketone monitor. The urine strips are not accurate. And it takes people different lengths of time to go in and out. I'm not into measuring so i'm not going to bother with that.

Paul Kiernan wrote: »

Should I be taking some easily absorbed simple carbs during or immediately after these spins or will that undo all the hard work of training on empty?

I believe eating any decent amount refined carbs will pull you out of ketosis. How quick you go back into ketosis you'll have to figure out for yourself.

I don't take carbs after training but I don't train often. I do take 5 or 6 pints of an apple derived carbohydrate drink every other Saturday night. If I am out for a meal I switch to a stronger grape based formula.

DaithiMC

petethedrummer wrote: »

The following comes from stuff I have read but not tried...The only way you are going to definitely know if you are in Ketosis is to get a blood ketone monitor. The urine strips are not accurate. And it takes people different lengths of time to go in and out. I'm not into measuring so i'm not going to bother with that.

Bad breath is a good indicator as well as a metallic taste in your mouth - fast for 8 hours + and you'll start getting these indications. You probably don't need a specific figure to know you're going into ketosis. The ketone monitors that Abbott and Nova Biomedical sell are expensive enough and for training, as opposed to medical purposes, a qualitative indication should be good enough.

Although knowing your penchant for numbers from other threads the Nova Biomedical metre tests Glucose and Ketone (BHB) together Statstrip, would probably be good if it did Lactate too.

petethedrummer

DaithiMC wrote: »

Although knowing your penchant for numbers from other threads.

That's my alter ego.