New home sale in Belmont, Stepaside, Dublin 18

Enduro

Our solicitor has found multiple issues with the contract.

His initial reaction is that it is written in an extremly arrogant "celtic tiger property bubble" style, where they are saying sign this in 2 weeks or we return your deposit and get the next sucker in the queue in your place... don't even think about questioning anything.

The next obvious major issue is that their solicitors basically said "Hey, there is a problem getting clean title on the land, but don't worry about it... we think they've overreached and sure it'll all be grand".... WTF... they expect us to sign a contract for more than a quarter of a million euro and take their word for it that (without question) that a known acknowledged problem that could cause a major issue if you ever sell, will be grand, just because they say so!

The next major issue is that they have not out in a standard "subject to finance" clause. This is basic stuff again.

The overall impression I'm getting is that their solicitors are either extremely arrogant (and expect us to act like celtic tiger era fools and just rush in to hand over our money under any circumstances), or are simply incompetant (which is not unlikely either... our contract has a clause in it about paying the remaining balance 2 weeks after the contract is signed. Our foundations aren't even finished yet, never mind being 2 weeks away from handing over the full price of a house).

I'm glad to hear that other's solicitors are finding issues. It's a pity, as the estate agents have been good to deal with, and the builders seem intent on building high quality houses (judging by the show homes and BER ratings). The low quality of their legal pack is big enough issue for us to pull out if the issues are not addressed though.

Lillian123

Hi All,

I have been reading this thread as we have deposit down on one of the houses in Belmont (the second phase). We put our deposit down over 7 weeks ago and still haven't received the contracts from their solicitor. We rang to ask about this and they said they are behind on sending them out, as they have sold so many houses. We are slightly worried about it though. So can I just check with you all how long did it take before your solicitor received the legal pack?

Also would you be able to tell me any more details about the problem with getting a clean title on the land. Is that related to the ownership of the driveway or something else? Has your solicitor gone back to request more information on this?

I also have experienced the sense of "you are lucky to get one of these houses, now don't ask us for anything". As we asked for some changes with no luck.

Also the other posters Nakom and Jared mentioned the problem with the title of the land, could you keep us updated of what the solicitors say about this? Just so we are fore-warned of the problem. I would really appreciate it...hopefully we will be neighbours soon!

Thanks

nakom

Lillian,
the contract took a while before it got in my solicitor's hands so don't worry about it. it'll eventually get there.
The problem, as stated by others, is that there are many unclear points on the contract.
The biggest is the title on the land (not driveway) as perfectly summarized by Enduro on his post.
My solicitor sent a request for clarification on many points but so far he received no answer.
As Enduro said, it's a pity because the houses are very nice but I'll have to pull out if things are not clarified.

Lillian123

Hi Nakom,

Thanks very much for your reply. I understand what you are saying, it is very worrying that there is a problem with the title on the land and they won't really let you question it. Since you are waiting for the clarification from the solicitor, are they employing the rule that you have to sign within 2 weeks or they release the deposit?

It would seem that they won't take any hassle and want you to just play ball with the ball firmly in their court. Are you seriously considering pulling out? My partner is really stressed about the whole thing. Does it mean that you don't fully own the land the house is built on? Also in the contract did it mention anything about the service charge for the estate?

Thanks a million!

nakom

Hi Lillian,

my solicitor questioned the 2 weeks time as well since, apparently, a document is missing.

I'm not sure about the details, I haven't got a chance to meet personally my solicitor, just a quick email exchange with some details.
Moreover I don't understand "legalese" ;-)
About your question to pull out, well, it won't be my decision.
The solicitor is obliged to tell the bank if they'll be able to sell the house in the future (covering for the mortgage).
At the moment, he's not sure about it (due to the problems above), so the bank wouldn't approve the mortgage, so... no house :-(

Anyway, let's wait and see when we'll have the reply from their solicitors.

Jared20130204

Agreed re. Solicitors seeming a little bit incompetent.
Maybe it's down to the volume, but We'll see what they come back with. It's a shame that it hasn't all run smoothly, but perhaps this is just a bump in the road.
Lillian, My booking deposit was taken 5th October and contract arrived with my solicitor mid November. When your solicitor gets the contract you'll be alerted to the deed issue. I don;t think it's about owning the land your house is on, but more that the people selling the houses as per the contract are not actually the officially registered owners in the Land registry office. An application has been made but not finalised yet on that issue. However, We are expected to sign on their word that application will come through soon.....

Re. pulling out of the sale... I am awaiting to hear back from them before I make that call, but if the issues raised aren't addressed to my solicitors satisfaction, I will be extremely disappointed about having to make a call on pulling out. I was very excited about moving in there. Fingers crossed it all gets sorted!

_Kaiser_

With reference to the last few posts but as a general point more so...

Why on earth are you still proceeding with it at all with so many potentially fatal flaws in the paperwork? I certainly wouldn't be trusting banks and estate agencies/builders that "ah it'll be grand!".
Fair play to the solicitors though for pointing out the gaping holes that some have spotted!

It's already been noted that this seems to be being done in the "celtic tiger" mindset and yet people are still willing to hand over money/get into debt for it?

Have we REALLY learned nothing from the last 5/6 years??

Enduro

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

With reference to the last few posts but as a general point more so...

Why on earth are you still proceeding with it at all with so many potentially fatal flaws in the paperwork? I certainly wouldn't be trusting banks and estate agencies/builders that "ah it'll be grand!".
Fair play to the solicitors though for pointing out the gaping holes that some have spotted!

It's already been noted that this seems to be being done in the "celtic tiger" mindset and yet people are still willing to hand over money/get into debt for it?

Have we REALLY learned nothing from the last 5/6 years??

Well, in our case we definitely won't be proceeding unless our own solicitor is satisfied. So we definitely won't be succumbing to any celtic tiger mindset. Our own soicitor has been doing a very good job of looking after our interests.

I agree absolutely with the thrust of your point. I'm one of the people who had no problem avoiding falling for the bubble mentality the first time round. I certainly don't intend to fall for similar crap now. Unfortunately we both know that there are fools around (who somehow still have access to money) that are capable of falling for the same old crap again.

abrahamb1111

Friends, i have been invited today for a snag and the site was totally disappointing. The house was not even ready for animal shelter. The quality of fixtures are really horrifying. I see rushed job everywhere ; i was covered in dust and mud in 10 seconds. The foreman was optimistic and could not see nothing wrong as he know wiring was not complete, no water in taps etc.. but still;; called me for snag list ? i do know why ? I also see lots of building materials left everywhere in all rooms. The main door is still locked and had to access the house through a muddy path way.

I am seriously thinking about pulling out from the deal as house is not even worth 1/3 of the money which we need to pay.

_Kaiser_

abrahamb1111 wrote: »

Friends, i have been invited today for a snag and the site was totally disappointing. The house was not even ready for animal shelter. The quality of fixtures are really horrifying. I see rushed job everywhere ; i was covered in dust and mud in 10 seconds. The foreman was optimistic and could not see nothing wrong as he know wiring was not complete, no water in taps etc.. but still;; called me for snag list ? i do know why ? I also see lots of building materials left everywhere in all rooms. The main door is still locked and had to access the house through a muddy path way.

I am seriously thinking about pulling out from the deal as house is not even worth 1/3 of the money which we need to pay.

Go with your gut. Don't make the same mistakes so many other people did not even 10 years ago and get stuck with a sub-standard overpriced noose around your neck.

There'll be other houses.

shoutman

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Go with your gut. Don't make the same mistakes so many other people did not even 10 years ago and get stuck with a sub-standard overpriced noose around your neck.

There'll be other houses.

Hey Abrahamb, if I were you i'd let it be known to the sales agent that you weren't impressed with the showing of the house during your snag and ask to do it again with the house better prepared.

I went up with a friend of mine the other day and thought the fittings etc were of the standard I expected for the price of the houses.

Correct me if I'm wrong but with work still to do on the houses I would of thought that it would be standard enough to have dust and mud on the interior, I was told by the foreman that all the units would be professionally cleaned prior to the keys being handed over in any case.

Finally, I don't know if you were looking to get the house with a mortgage or not, but if it was with a mortgage, there is no way a bank would give it to you if they did not feel the house was up to scratch (i.e. worth the money you are paying for it.)

I suppose like anything though, don't sign off and buy it unless you are happy with what you are getting, I just think backing out over the state of an unfinished house seems like something you might regret in the future.

Just my two cents.

_Kaiser_

shoutman wrote: »

Finally, I don't know if you were looking to get the house with a mortgage or not, but if it was with a mortgage, there is no way a bank would give it to you if they did not feel the house was up to scratch (i.e. worth the money you are paying for it.)

I suppose like anything though, don't sign off and buy it unless you are happy with what you are getting, I just think backing out over the state of an unfinished house seems like something you might regret in the future.

Just my two cents.

I'd argue (and not against you personally) that it's this NEED to believe that "it'll all work out in the end" that is a big part of the problem. Our NEED to own property has resulted in thousands of sub-standard, poor-quality, badly laid-out over-priced shoe boxes that people are now stuck with. I live/work in the area in question myself and the facilities (roads, shops, entertainment etc) are poor for what's there now, never mind another 200/300 houses.

By all means buy a house/apartment if you can (sustainably) afford it.. but don't settle for less just because you're afraid of not getting on the property ladder.

BabysCoffee

abrahamb1111 wrote: »

Friends, i have been invited today for a snag and the site was totally disappointing. The house was not even ready for animal shelter. The quality of fixtures are really horrifying. I see rushed job everywhere ; i was covered in dust and mud in 10 seconds. The foreman was optimistic and could not see nothing wrong as he know wiring was not complete, no water in taps etc.. but still;; called me for snag list ? i do know why ? I also see lots of building materials left everywhere in all rooms. The main door is still locked and had to access the house through a muddy path way.

I am seriously thinking about pulling out from the deal as house is not even worth 1/3 of the money which we need to pay.

What did your professional snagger think of the condition of the house presented for snagging?

abrahamb1111

Hi shoutman

The house was not ready for snag; looks like a communication issue between builder and auctioneer. Have informed auctioneer and solicitor about my concerns with the work. The builder is currently working on the house and expected to be correctly ready for snagged next week. I hope all should work well now.

abrahamb1111

Hi Kaiser2000

The house was not ready for snag; looks like a communication issue between builder and auctioneer. Have informed auctioneer and solicitor about my concerns with the work. The builder is currently working on the house and expected to be correctly ready for snagged next week. I hope all should work well now. I have informed solicitor and Auctioneer that i won't buy this house unless i am happy with the build and fixing.

abrahamb1111

BabysCoffee, The house was not ready for professional snagger ; i knew they were rushing up calling me (as dates were changing from one day to another etc..) so i went myself. Professional snagger is expected to go once i see is fit for him to go for more internal deep checks..

BabysCoffee

abrahamb1111 wrote: »

BabysCoffee, The house was not ready for professional snagger ; i knew they were rushing up calling me (as dates were changing from one day to another etc..) so i went myself. Professional snagger is expected to go once i see is fit for him to go for more internal deep checks..

Good call!

That is what it sounded like to me. During the Celtic Tiger I think a lot of Finishing foremen got in to the habit of getting snaggers to do up their finishing list of outstanding works for them.

The Bishop Basher

shoutman wrote: »

Finally, I don't know if you were looking to get the house with a mortgage or not, but if it was with a mortgage, there is no way a bank would give it to you if they did not feel the house was up to scratch (i.e. worth the money you are paying for it.)

Yes they will as that's how they've always operated. Ultimately you are responsible for the decision here and the debt you'll be saddled with . I find it quite astounding that this kind of thinking still exists after everything we've been through. It seems some of us have learned nothing.

shoutman wrote: »

I suppose like anything though, don't sign off and buy it unless you are happy with what you are getting, I just think backing out over the state of an unfinished house seems like something you might regret in the future.

The majority of posts on this thread appear to be people really excited about getting on the ladder and trying to justify the numerous faults, issues, poor attitude from the developer etc.

If I was parting with this kind of money I would expect much much better and would have walked away from this debacle weeks ago.

The key indicator here is the developers attitude towards their customers. If they have so little respect now, how do you think they'll respond when you have issues in 6 months or a years time.

Quick build high density housing is no different now then it was in 2007. Genuinely can't believe we've learned so little.

Ronan|Raven

I live in Belarmine and went up to take a look as planning on moving to a larger property.

I found the layout of a lot of the show homes terrible. Kitchens too narrow, bathroom door not opening fully with large towel rails behind them. Small things I know but enough to make one think twice. If they believe this looks good for a showhome then more power to them.

McDook

We were about to buy there but pulled out.
A friend sat us down and got us to look at it from a removed point of view as we were emotionally attached to the house already.

Basically she said that if we hadnt come across the issues after we had fallen in love with the house, would we run or still be interested. In truth it would have been to run.

eg The halting site was something that we were trying to stay pragmatic about, but when we thought about it, until the plan is abandoned it is still a major possibility.

And even though we probably wouldnt be too worried about living near one, what happens when we want to sell the house in 10 years and the halting site is there. It will definitely effect the number of people interested in buying and the price.

Then I spoke to a friend in the know and he said that councils never, ever confirm that a halting site is going ahead until the day it does. He said they just say "It doesnt look like anything is going to happen now." when asked by joe public, because its easier than having to answer lots of follow up questions that they really dont know the answers too.

So until you see that the plan is abandoned altogether and the site is sold to a private developer, assume that there will be a halting site there in the future. And this may cause problems if you are ever selling.

In the end it wasnt for us, but best of luck to those who are going ahead.

Jolisa94

Hi all,
We put a deposit down the first weekend of October and our solicitor only got the contract during the week, so haven't got any feedback from him yet, judging by the issues raised in the previous posts on this thread, looks like there is still a long road ahead.
Has anyone actually completed yet? The first phase was sold in August and was due to be ready in October according to SherryFitz (or, according the the builder, mid September - but we never believed that one!!!) Almost one month later and I don't think anyone has moved in yet. There are still barriers across the entrance.
They don't seem to have made much progress recently, so we plan to go over tomorrow and see if we can have look at 'our' house and see what's happening.

Jared20130204

Hi All,

I drove past there earlier and the entrance is completely blocked, contrary to agent advising that people would be moving in this weekend?
Also, given Abrahams snag, it appears that these guys aren't getting very far with the builds. I notice no one has actually posted here that has completed, even though I have also been advised that a number of people have signed contracts.

The developers solicitors have requested the deposit be given directly to the developer. Normal practice is to give this deposit to the solicitors in trust until keys are exchanged.
Would anyone have any idea why developers want this cash upfront?

It's quite worrying at this stage.

handlemaster

Jared20130204 wrote: »

Hi All,

I drove past there earlier and the entrance is completely blocked, contrary to agent advising that people would be moving in this weekend?
Also, given Abrahams snag, it appears that these guys aren't getting very far with the builds. I notice no one has actually posted here that has completed, even though I have also been advised that a number of people have signed contracts.

The developers solicitors have requested the deposit be given directly to the developer. Normal practice is to give this deposit to the solicitors in trust until keys are exchanged.
Would anyone have any idea why developers want this cash upfront?

It's quite worrying at this stage.

Sounds like they need the cash !!

Theboinkmaster

How the fvck have you all not run a mile by now

Jolisa94

Nobody has moved in yet. We were over there earlier today to see what progress has been made on our house, not very much. Would be surprised if it were ready before February.
Talked to a couple of the guys on site and they said the first people should be moving in from Monday week and they were working on a Sunday to get everything finished in time.
Jared's post is a bit worrying - it's not normal to give the deposit to the builder directly, must be running short on cash. Guess the delay in delivering the first phase means they are now short on cash to continue building phase two.

Zaza22

The list of issues is starting to pile up!
We saw that the floor plan included in our contract does not match the house we put a deposit on. We are wondering if the plans per the original planning permission have not been updated. Has anyone else come across this issue?

McDook

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

How the fvck have you all not run a mile by now

We did, but its hard once you are emotionally invested.
There are nothing but alarm bells going off now.
And it looks like the developers are now looking for interest free loans too. They want the deposit instead of the solicitors.

I wonder how many of the people going ahead will be back in this thread in the future telling horror stories though. I certainly hope not.

NinjaTruncs

Zaza22 wrote: »

The list of issues is starting to pile up!
We saw that the floor plan included in our contract does not match the house we put a deposit on. We are wondering if the plans per the original planning permission have not been updated. Has anyone else come across this issue?

I was thinking this the other day, when I went to see Phase 1, the agent said that phase 2 wouldn't differ too much from phase 1. However they are considerably different, while talking to a different person while looking at phase 2 she said that they took on board feedback from buyers and changed phase 2. So in my opinion there are two options

1. The first agent was full of **** the first time not wanting to take away from the phase one properties, I know I'd hold off on buying if I was told there would be better laid out housing coming along
2. They did actually alter the plans after selling out of phase 1 units, however I don't see how they could have gotten new plans and permission to make the changes in that time.

Option 1 is probably what's happened here, but that doesn't instill confidence in the agents. However with what you are saying option 2 could be a possibility.

On a different note don't believe for a second when anyone, either agent or builder say "that'll be fixed/cleaned for when you move in." Don't sign off on anything until the property is complete in your eyes. From the sounds of it they are calling people in to do the snagging for them.

Jolisa94

Which house are you buying Zaza? We saw a new planning permission notice dated 19/11/13, you can see it on the dlrcoco site http://planning.dlrcoco.ie ID nr D13A/0611

McDook, you mentioned the halting site in a previous post, what else made you rethink your decision?

Jared20130204

Hi ,

I’m not pulling out until my Solicitor, who has done a very thorough job so far, advises on the queries he has raised.
Overall though, I was happy with buying this place and I didn’t think I was opting into a crazy frenzy type, non considered purchase.
I opted out of the crazy bubble days, as I simply thought the value wasn’t there back in 2007 etc.
I have spent 10 months looking to buy this year and although I have seen this mini spike of 12% increases in south county Dublin, I steered clear of houses that were being bid up too much( which is happening and I am sure some places are being sold over their worth, where a few bidders get involved)

Belmont represented a fair price for the space and I was excited, thinking…finally, the builders get it!
They need to build good properties and offer them at a fair price, which in turn leads to cash in the bank and they go on to build more of these houses that are in demand in south county Dublin…Simple I thought!
I think a lot of people on this thread are in the same boat and it is massively unfair to throw such a curveball like the one thrown with those contracts riddled with issues!

( Unless of course they don’t want us to sign, so they can relaunch at a higher price?!,
Quite possible given the arrogance so far…. Maybe they assume because there’s a little spike in the property recovery, prices will go up forever !!??…. Didn’t that thinking get us into a world of trouble before??)
Anyway, I won’t be paying over what I agreed and I won’t be handing a cent over to anyone until the queries are answered to my satisfaction.

January will see a lot of new houses come on, so although I was gutted last week over all this, I’m thinking…It’s not the only place out there!