Ghost rapes in Mennonite community

Femme_Fatale

Ireland is of course a better society for women (and men) to live in than e.g. Afghanistan under the Taliban. There's no subjectivity to it.
Criticising other cultures as backward and inferior is wrong when oppression doesn't constitute part of their customs, but there is simply nothing wrong with criticising oppression; people being oppressed themselves would agree that Ireland would be a much better place in which to live. The freedoms we have here are paradise compared to some. And it's a bit insulting to people living under oppression to imply they should be left to it, because it's "their culture".

And of course we should be able to critcise such customs/regimes; it doesn't mean lack of acknowledgement of wrongdoings here. This "We should get our own house in order first before criticising" stuff is bemusing and seems like misguided extreme political correctness. Why should we? Can we not criticise both?

seenitall

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

people being oppressed themselves would agree that Ireland would be a much better place in which to live. The freedoms we have here are paradise compared to some. And it's a bit insulting to people living under oppression to imply they should be left to it, because it's "their culture".

I don't know about that. Isn't it also a bit insulting to people living under oppression to imply we know what's best for them better than they do? As, believe it or not, because of the extreme nature of brainwashing going on in these places (aka religions and customs), a lot of the people you or I would feel are victims, feel that their lives are just fine, proper and godly. You can never put a price on a blissful after-life, can you?

<snip>

Fox_In_Socks

seenitall wrote: »

I don't know about that. Isn't it also a bit insulting to people living under oppression to imply we know what's best for them better than they do? As, believe it or not, because of the extreme nature of brainwashing going on in these places (aka religions and customs), a lot of the people you or I would feel are victims, feel that their lives are just fine, proper and godly. You can never put a price on a blissful after-life, can you?

<snip>

Some cultures/aspects of cultures are superior to others.

Mod

Posts edited, please do not refer to threads in other forums.

kylith

clappyhappy wrote: »

One of the most disturbing articles I have read. Horrific, just shows the lack of education and respect. Brothers molesting, raping, abusing their siblings, grandfathers abusing 3-4 year olds. Just wrong, so so sad.

The really sad thing is that it probably happened to them too. They probably think it's normal behaviour.

Viserion

Horrific.

Femme_Fatale

seenitall wrote: »

I don't know about that. Isn't it also a bit insulting to people living under oppression to imply we know what's best for them better than they do? As, believe it or not, because of the extreme nature of brainwashing going on in these places (aka religions and customs), a lot of the people you or I would feel are victims, feel that their lives are just fine

I would apply the above to e.g. the burka. Much as I hate the garment and what it stands for, I don't agree with western cultures banning it either.

But e.g. FGM? Being punished for being raped? It's taking the cultural relativism and political correctness a bit too far now to say "We're in no position to talk" in relation to atrocities like those.

seenitall

seenitall wrote: »

I don't know about that. Isn't it also a bit insulting to people living under oppression to imply we know what's best for them better than they do? As, believe it or not, because of the extreme nature of brainwashing going on in these places (aka religions and customs), a lot of the people you or I would feel are victims, feel that their lives are just fine, proper and godly. You can never put a price on a blissful after-life, can you?

<snip>

Our modern concept of civilisation relies on historical progression. When cultures don't evolve, progress, or mature, it's observation rather than judgement to see them as backwards.

When belief systems or traditions that normalise, entrench and legitimise oppression and abuse hold sway over entire populations, I have no problem saying that yes, we do know better.

To think we don't, with our freedom of access to education and freedom of conscience, is taking cultural or moral relativism too far if you believe in universal human rights.

Is it insulting? Maybe. Is it unreasonable? I don't think so.

seenitall

Point taken.

I suppose I was coming from the angle of the general arrogance and hypocrisy of the first world societies, where there will be examples of stuff that is legal but potentially harmful being done, yet as long as it is legal, it will be defended as a personal choice and kindly butt out, thanks all the same (I had an example in my post last night, but it was to do with something I read on a PI thread, so not allowed). Yet, stuff that is legal but harmful it those other places, well that's just not on.

However, that aside, I completely agree that FGM is abhorrent, although in my eyes male circumcision is also very, um, unpleasant.

If I could end FGM and similar things happening, with a click of my fingers tomorrow, I would. So I wouldn't call myself a cultural relativist exactly. But on the whole, this is a very complex issue IMO.

Fox_In_Socks

seenitall wrote: »

Point taken.

I suppose I was coming from the angle of the general arrogance and hypocrisy of the first world societies, where there will be examples of stuff that is legal but potentially harmful being done, yet as long as it is legal, it will be defended as a personal choice and kindly butt out, thanks all the same (I had an example in my post last night, but it was to do with something I read on a PI thread, so not allowed). Yet, stuff that is legal but harmful it those other places, well that's just not on.

However, that aside, I completely agree that FGM is abhorrent, although in my eyes male circumcision is also very, um, unpleasant.

If I could end FGM and similar things happening, with a click of my fingers tomorrow, I would. So I wouldn't call myself a cultural relativist exactly. But on the whole, this is a very complex issue IMO.

Well, I think the view of myself would be that you can do what you like as long as it doesn't harm other people. Whether or not you hurt yourself, is kind of your own responsibility but as soon as you impact other people, then it isn't a personal choice. And yes, there is a lot in Irish/Western society that I dislike because the above doesn't apply.

Paddy Cow

meeeeh wrote: »

So what is your solution? What should we do? Complain on internet how terrible they are? Talk to them nicley? If you don't want to use force, what is left there. And btw plenty of 3 year olds get abused here and nothing happens to the abusers. Maybe we should deal with our own **** first before we decide that other peoples way of life is inferior to ours.

There is no need to use force on these people. They don't even have electricity! The Bolivian Government could step in and say that from now on they are going to have a local police station that people can chose to report their crimes to. There is no chance that the population will up and leave as in this day and age it's unlikely they will find a large enough area of land to settle upon where the government agrees to leave them to basically govern themselves.

I think their way of life is inferior to ours. While I agree that there probably are cases of 3 year olds being abused and their abusers getting away with it, I don't know of any case where a 3 year old has been abused, the abuser found and the child is told that if they don't forgive their abuser, then they are just as guilty. Abuse in their culture is rife because the people are uneducated with no one to turn to and the "wise" elders want to cover it up. They are also lead to believe that they must lead lives of suffering in order to get into heaven and forgiving their abusers is more a test of their strength, than surviving the abuse they suffered.

Think back to Ireland not so long ago and the abuse that went on. We were left to sort it out ourselves and many innocent people suffered because of this. Would it have been better if someone had at least tried to intervene and and sped up the natural social evolution? How many children would have been raised by their mothers instead of being adopted if the laundries had been closed down even ten years before they were? How many children shoved into institutions would've been spared years of abuse if some cheeky foreginer had tried to instill their values on us?

Ireland has come along way and while we have a lot to answer for in the past, in the present we are not that bad and should know the dangers of letting the church rule the home.

seenitall wrote: »

I don't know about that. Isn't it also a bit insulting to people living under oppression to imply we know what's best for them better than they do? As, believe it or not, because of the extreme nature of brainwashing going on in these places (aka religions and customs), a lot of the people you or I would feel are victims, feel that their lives are just fine, proper and godly. You can never put a price on a blissful after-life, can you?

<snip>

It said in the article that the victims wanted counselling but the elders decided it would be better if it was simply forgotton about. The older women had other victims and their sisters/friends to talk to but the younger victims had no one. One 11 year old knew that something had happened as she woke up with pain down below so bad she had to go to hospital and her father insisted it would be better if she was never told (like she couldn't have pieced it together). I think her mother was also raped but the daughter didn't know this.

The elders even went so far as to lie to their congregation. The victims were lead to believe that there was no counsellors available who spoke low German but other colonies had offered to pay for counsellors speaking this language. The elders simply wouldn't accept the help because they thought that a) the women didn't need it and it would all blow over and b) the other counsellors were just using this as an excuse to corrupt the congregation.

This is definitely a case of people living under oppression knowing what's best for them but being denied that help. I can't do anything from behind my computer screen but I can't help hoping that the Bolivian Government steps in and does something about this. Given how simple their lifestyle is they are not likely to face heavily armed rebels if they try to bring law and order to the community and I think that's part of the problem. The community lives off the grid and therefore aren't an economic or political asset to the government, so why should they bother with them? The government is probably hoping this blows over as well and doesn't attract too much attention. I would hope the government isn't so cold and values human life more than that but the bitter cynic in me believes it to be so.

Amirani

These figures today are quite startling: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/10/asia-pacific-rape-survey

The study focused on 6 countries - Bangladesh, China, Cambodia, Indonesia, Papua New Guinea and Sri Lanka. Since this is probably the most populous region on Earth, most of these percentages translate to absolutely huge numbers.

• 25% of men in the Asia-Pacific region have committed rape at least once.
• 75% of those who had committed rape said they did so because they felt sexually entitled; more than half said they did it for entertainment.
• 70% of all the men surveyed reported suffering no legal consequences for their actions, with that figure as high as 96.5% in Sri Lanka.
• Bougainville in Papua New Guinea recorded the heaviest prevalence of rape of any kind, where 62% of respondents admitted to having committed rape.

Some truly sickening statistics there.

coffee_cake

List of "places I will never go*" now updated







*except possibly with a rusty knife + training

Catari Jaguar

An 8 year old Yemen child bride has just died from internal injuries caused by her 40 year old husband on her "wedding night"

Activists in Yemen and around the world hope to end the practice of marrying young girls — at least one as young as 3 years old, in one media report — to men in rural areas. Although the Yemen government instituted an age minimum of 17 for marriage in 2009, the new law has been deemed by many in rural areas as “un-Islamic.” The country’s parliament plans to review the law this month for a final decision.

Note the religious link there. Would I be wrong in blasting this too?? Is this just my "disgusting chip on my shoulder against religion?"

Should that little girl not have been taken away from her family? Even if it is their culture does it make it right? Am I just being judgmental? If her culture/religion - even the minority- didn't accept & promote child brides/paedophilia (only word I can think that suits this) would she still have been raped?