Ghost rapes in Mennonite community

lazygal

http://www.vice.com/read/the-ghost-rapes-of-bolivia-000300-v20n8

I cannot stop thinking about this since I read it recently. There are families in a Mennonite community where mothers and their daughters were drugged and raped, and those in the gangs which did it seem to have gotten off without any criminal sanction. Its a shocking story to read, and seems to show how vulnerable women are when men in a religious community don't want to know about or can't deal with sexual violence.

Grayditch

This is beyond upsetting.

Catari Jaguar

Another reason to abolish organised Religion.

slarkin123

Jesus that's a shocking article. Those poor women and kids need to be taken away and given better safer lives.

buttonteaser

ive been watching that show breaking amish. one of the girls is mennonite. but they left the religion and said that some of the men in the community were totally sick the stuff they do.i wont go into detail. they dont have sex eduction so they are very uneducated in the area. those poor women. i mean there were massive protests in india over recent rapes. this should be done to help these women too. its not their fault what religion they are in. they were born into it but they shouldnt have to have this happen to them.

discus

Lets not forget that it mentions that men and boys could have been victims too. People capable of such horrific acts don't differentiate between age or gender.

vicwatson

Those poor children of Abraham Enns look petrified in that photo on page 3 of the article.

Bolivian gov need to step in here.......no religion should be above the law of the land. I'd be furious that these people effectively self govern if I was a regular Bolivian citizen.

Disgusting behaviour.

Chucken

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

Another reason to abolish organised Religion.

Sorry, I'm a bit confused at your comment.

Catari Jaguar

Chucken wrote: »

Sorry, I'm a bit confused at your comment.

The traditional religious beliefs of this cult, sorry, colony breed ignorance, lack of education, a blind belief that allows these people to be manipulated, controlled and abused. The fear of some mythical deity that means these women need to "forgive" their rapists or they won't get into Heaven. The lack of sex education given to this population because sex is seen as "immoral". The fact that they genuinely believe in the Bible (or at least the "Elders" who read it on their behalf and iterpret it very loosely) and follow its archaic laws that frankly, have no place in this day and age. These people are above the law because they are governed by religion. It's clearly an infringement on their basic human rights (ironic, that they have a right to religion) and it's not doing them any good..

Chucken

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

The traditional religious beliefs of this cult, sorry, colony breed ignorance, lack of education, a blind belief that allows these people to be manipulated, controlled and abused. The fear of some mythical deity that means these women need to "forgive" their rapists or they won't get into Heaven. The lack of sex education given to this population because sex is seen as "immoral". The fact that they genuinely believe in the Bible (or at least the "Elders" who read it on their behalf and iterpret it very loosely) and follow its archaic laws that frankly, have no place in this day and age. These people are above the law because they are governed by religion. It's clearly an infringement on their basic human rights (ironic, that they have a right to religion) and it's not doing them any good..

Sorry but that reads like the women are to blame for getting drugged and raped

Do you think if they werent religious they wouldnt have been subjected to this horrific crime?

Catari Jaguar

Sorry but that reads like the women are to blame for getting drugged and raped

Do you think if they werent religious they wouldnt have been subjected to this horrific crime?

Talk about deliberate misinterpretation. My point is perfectly valid & logical. Nowhere did I say that.

Have you read the five pages of this article?

Say a rape victim gets stoned to death for having sex outside marriage. Was she raped because of her religion? No. Is she punished because her religion condemns her (supposed) actions? Yes. Should she get the physical/emotional help that she needs to recover? Yes. Should her attacker be given a punishment/
rehabilitation/ chance to make amends that is in line with human rights? Yes.

If ANY religion prevents this then, in my eyes, that's an atrocity that needs rectifying.

vicwatson

vicwatson wrote: »

Those poor children of Abraham Enns look petrified in that photo on page 3 of the article.

Bolivian gov need to step in here.......no religion should be above the law of the land. I'd be furious that these people effectively self govern if I was a regular Bolivian citizen.

Disgusting behaviour.

Sadly this sort of abuse and denial/acceptance of abuse seems quite prevalent in closed communities.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=316371&page=1

If religious communities are going to be allowed live outside society, it should be mandatory that child protection officers from local authorities check on the welfare of children otherwise isolated.

The Mennonite story is horrific beyond words.

But do you not think man ( I mean man as in men and women ) uses religion as a clock for all sorts of evil I.e, Then tendency toward evil precedes religion

mariaalice

mariaalice wrote: »

But do you not think man ( I mean man as in men and women ) uses religion as a clock for all sorts of evil I.e, Then tendency toward evil precedes religion

Of course, it's just one of a number of handy covers.

If the abusers didn't have religion to hide behind they'd have some other mechanism to enable them to operate. Bad people will find a way to do bad things, that's why any kind of power should be transparent and accountable.

Catari Jaguar

Catari Jaguar wrote: »

The traditional religious beliefs of this cult, sorry, colony breed ignorance, lack of education, a blind belief that allows these people to be manipulated, controlled and abused. The fear of some mythical deity that means these women need to "forgive" their rapists or they won't get into Heaven. The lack of sex education given to this population because sex is seen as "immoral". The fact that they genuinely believe in the Bible (or at least the "Elders" who read it on their behalf and iterpret it very loosely) and follow its archaic laws that frankly, have no place in this day and age. These people are above the law because they are governed by religion. It's clearly an infringement on their basic human rights (ironic, that they have a right to religion) and it's not doing them any good..

Whether you dislike their religion or not, it wasn't their religion that raped them.

They were raped, by rapists, who didn't do it for any God. Implying that they're ignorant and foolish and allowed this to happen to them just because you might have a chip on your shoulder about religion is at best disgusting.

true-or-false

true-or-false wrote: »

Whether you dislike their religion or not, it wasn't their religion that raped them.

They were raped, by rapists, who didn't do it for any God. Implying that they're ignorant and foolish and allowed this to happen to them just because you might have a chip on your shoulder about religion is at best disgusting.

While what you say is true, religion has been and still is one of the most handy covers for doing evil, and maybe it is no harm to question why that is.

meeeeh

The problem is, how much of a right we have to force certain society to live according to our rules if they don't want to. Outside interference often does more harm than good. And that goes for any kind of societies, the ones influenced by religion or by some other idea. Dealing with the rapes "our way" might not be of any benefit to them either.

I'm not into cultural relativism when it comes to stuff like this

pwurple

mariaalice wrote: »

While what you say is true, religion has been and still is one of the most handy covers for doing evil, and maybe it is no harm to question why that is.

I'd say it's lack of education and knowledge rather than that particular religion. I would imagine the religion has rules against sexual misconduct, but they are struggling to define it or control it because they don't have the ability due to lack of education.

Enforced or willful ignorance never comes to any good end.

meeeeh

bluewolf wrote: »

I'm not into cultural relativism when it comes to stuff like this

Should we bomb UAE then? Without cultural relativism you can have war all the time and at the end of it, nobody will be any happier. And what would you think if somebody with different values would be telling us that our way of life is wrong...

Slutmonkey57b

pwurple wrote: »

I'd say it's lack of education and knowledge rather than that particular religion. I would imagine the religion has rules against sexual misconduct, but they are struggling to define it or control it because they don't have the ability due to lack of education.

Enforced or willful ignorance never comes to any good end.

Organised Religion is about control. Controlling what people think, what people wear, how they behave, but most importantly of all, controlling who makes their decisions. The degree of control varies, but it all has the same purpose: make people give up control to a usually patriarchal hierarchy who act in the their own interests.

So religion creates an environment where abusers flourish because it teaches followers not to question, not to speak up, and to submit control of their lives to another person.

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

Should we bomb UAE then? ...

Wtf?

meeeeh

bluewolf wrote: »

Wtf?

That was an example. If you remember that Norwegian woman who was imprisoned after being raped, it is clear they have appalling treatment of women. Same goes for the people in article posted above. There are only two options either you force people to deal with things your way or let them deal as they would.

I have no love for religion, but neither do I believe that our norms, our moral standards or our beliefs are any better than anybody else's. They are different, I certainly would not want to live like Mennonites but I think that probably they wouldn't want to live like me either. I might be cynic or cultural relativist but it is not people like me who start wars (as an extreme example), it's people who believe that everybody should stick to the better, their way of life.

That being said it is a failure of the state when they don't enforce the law and protect people.

pwurple

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Organised Religion is about control. Controlling what people think, what people wear, how they behave, but most importantly of all, controlling who makes their decisions. The degree of control varies, but it all has the same purpose: make people give up control to a usually patriarchal hierarchy who act in the their own interests.

So religion creates an environment where abusers flourish because it teaches followers not to question, not to speak up, and to submit control of their lives to another person.

So every religion do this? Hardly. And similarly, plenty of other societal factors do influence education level apart from religion. Poverty, drug abuse, geographical isolation.

Declaring from on high that it's all religion's fault? It's far more complex than your particular chip.

Slutmonkey57b

pwurple wrote: »

So every religion do this? Hardly. And similarly, plenty of other societal factors do influence education level apart from religion. Poverty, drug abuse, geographical isolation.

Declaring from on high that it's all religion's fault? It's far more complex than your particular chip.

You're deliberately misinterpreting my point. You asked how religion could be at fault for these rapes. The rapists are ultimately at fault, but religion fosters an environment where abusers can operate more freely. Especially if a defining characteristic of that religion is to isolate from wider society. It is a significant contributory factor, particularly when abuse becomes widespread.

pwurple

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

You asked how religion could be at fault for these rapes.

Where?

kylith

pwurple wrote: »

So every religion do this? Hardly. And similarly, plenty of other societal factors do influence education level apart from religion. Poverty, drug abuse, geographical isolation.

Declaring from on high that it's all religion's fault? It's far more complex than your particular chip.

While I agree that it's not religion's 'fault' it is because of their religion that these people, girls especially, are being raised in ignorance of sex and its effects. It is their religion that prevents them from seeking help from outside authorities. It is their religion which has prevented other rapists from being turned over to the authorities. It is their religion which means that the girls know so little about their own bodies that they don't even have the words to describe what has happened to them. And it is their religion which is apparently holding raped women as much at fault as the men who have abused them "...She was told that if she didn't forgive him, God wouldn't forgive her..."

meeeeh

meeeeh wrote: »

That was an example.

It was a pretty bizarre example. I'm not in the habit of advocating bombing people I disagree with, you included.
I don't agree it's ok to wave our hands and say anything is ok just because a group of people do it. For the most part, they can do what they like outside of harming other people.

I have no love for religion, but neither do I believe that our norms, our moral standards or our beliefs are any better than anybody else's.

Well, I believe that raping 3 year olds and saying "well it's ok if you say sorry for a week then we'll drop it" is wrong. I do in fact think it is better to have standards where this is wrong.
If you want to say that's ok let them at it, off you go.

it is not people like me who start wars (as an extreme example),

You were the only one to bring up wars and bombing in this thread.

meeeeh

bluewolf wrote: »

It was a pretty bizarre example. I'm not in the habit of advocating bombing people I disagree with, you included.
I don't agree it's ok to wave our hands and say anything is ok just because a group of people do it. For the most part, they can do what they like outside of harming other people.


Well, I believe that raping 3 year olds and saying "well it's ok if you say sorry for a week then we'll drop it" is wrong. I do in fact think it is better to have standards where this is wrong.
If you want to say that's ok let them at it, off you go.


You were the only one to bring up wars and bombing in this thread.

So what is your solution? What should we do? Complain on internet how terrible they are? Talk to them nicley? If you don't want to use force, what is left there. And btw plenty of 3 year olds get abused here and nothing happens to the abusers. Maybe we should deal with our own **** first before we decide that other peoples way of life is inferior to ours.

Fukuyama

Religion is the biggest jailer of women around the world.

It just so happens that most religions forbid women from holding any position of power.

Look at the UAE - one of the richest countries on earth with bustling cities. No poverty or isolation there. Their economy depends on bringing in foreigners to do their work ffs.

And yet women have the same societal standing as a stray dog.

Propping up individual cases and saying 'oh but we mustn't attack religion for fear of upsetting the wasps nest' is very short sighted and sows the seeds for oppressed girls generations from now.

I fail to see how, in the year 2013, anyone can look at any religion and see it as a force for good or even being of no harm.

clappyhappy

One of the most disturbing articles I have read. Horrific, just shows the lack of education and respect. Brothers molesting, raping, abusing their siblings, grandfathers abusing 3-4 year olds. Just wrong, so so sad.

Femme_Fatale

Ireland is of course a better society for women (and men) to live in than e.g. Afghanistan under the Taliban. There's no subjectivity to it.
Criticising other cultures as backward and inferior is wrong when oppression doesn't constitute part of their customs, but there is simply nothing wrong with criticising oppression; people being oppressed themselves would agree that Ireland would be a much better place in which to live. The freedoms we have here are paradise compared to some. And it's a bit insulting to people living under oppression to imply they should be left to it, because it's "their culture".

And of course we should be able to critcise such customs/regimes; it doesn't mean lack of acknowledgement of wrongdoings here. This "We should get our own house in order first before criticising" stuff is bemusing and seems like misguided extreme political correctness. Why should we? Can we not criticise both?

seenitall

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

people being oppressed themselves would agree that Ireland would be a much better place in which to live. The freedoms we have here are paradise compared to some. And it's a bit insulting to people living under oppression to imply they should be left to it, because it's "their culture".

I don't know about that. Isn't it also a bit insulting to people living under oppression to imply we know what's best for them better than they do? As, believe it or not, because of the extreme nature of brainwashing going on in these places (aka religions and customs), a lot of the people you or I would feel are victims, feel that their lives are just fine, proper and godly. You can never put a price on a blissful after-life, can you?

<snip>

Fox_In_Socks

seenitall wrote: »

I don't know about that. Isn't it also a bit insulting to people living under oppression to imply we know what's best for them better than they do? As, believe it or not, because of the extreme nature of brainwashing going on in these places (aka religions and customs), a lot of the people you or I would feel are victims, feel that their lives are just fine, proper and godly. You can never put a price on a blissful after-life, can you?

<snip>

Some cultures/aspects of cultures are superior to others.

Mod

Posts edited, please do not refer to threads in other forums.

kylith

clappyhappy wrote: »

One of the most disturbing articles I have read. Horrific, just shows the lack of education and respect. Brothers molesting, raping, abusing their siblings, grandfathers abusing 3-4 year olds. Just wrong, so so sad.

The really sad thing is that it probably happened to them too. They probably think it's normal behaviour.

Viserion

Horrific.

Femme_Fatale

seenitall wrote: »

I don't know about that. Isn't it also a bit insulting to people living under oppression to imply we know what's best for them better than they do? As, believe it or not, because of the extreme nature of brainwashing going on in these places (aka religions and customs), a lot of the people you or I would feel are victims, feel that their lives are just fine

I would apply the above to e.g. the burka. Much as I hate the garment and what it stands for, I don't agree with western cultures banning it either.

But e.g. FGM? Being punished for being raped? It's taking the cultural relativism and political correctness a bit too far now to say "We're in no position to talk" in relation to atrocities like those.

seenitall

seenitall wrote: »

I don't know about that. Isn't it also a bit insulting to people living under oppression to imply we know what's best for them better than they do? As, believe it or not, because of the extreme nature of brainwashing going on in these places (aka religions and customs), a lot of the people you or I would feel are victims, feel that their lives are just fine, proper and godly. You can never put a price on a blissful after-life, can you?

<snip>

Our modern concept of civilisation relies on historical progression. When cultures don't evolve, progress, or mature, it's observation rather than judgement to see them as backwards.

When belief systems or traditions that normalise, entrench and legitimise oppression and abuse hold sway over entire populations, I have no problem saying that yes, we do know better.

To think we don't, with our freedom of access to education and freedom of conscience, is taking cultural or moral relativism too far if you believe in universal human rights.

Is it insulting? Maybe. Is it unreasonable? I don't think so.

seenitall

Point taken.

I suppose I was coming from the angle of the general arrogance and hypocrisy of the first world societies, where there will be examples of stuff that is legal but potentially harmful being done, yet as long as it is legal, it will be defended as a personal choice and kindly butt out, thanks all the same (I had an example in my post last night, but it was to do with something I read on a PI thread, so not allowed). Yet, stuff that is legal but harmful it those other places, well that's just not on.

However, that aside, I completely agree that FGM is abhorrent, although in my eyes male circumcision is also very, um, unpleasant.

If I could end FGM and similar things happening, with a click of my fingers tomorrow, I would. So I wouldn't call myself a cultural relativist exactly. But on the whole, this is a very complex issue IMO.

Fox_In_Socks

seenitall wrote: »

Point taken.

I suppose I was coming from the angle of the general arrogance and hypocrisy of the first world societies, where there will be examples of stuff that is legal but potentially harmful being done, yet as long as it is legal, it will be defended as a personal choice and kindly butt out, thanks all the same (I had an example in my post last night, but it was to do with something I read on a PI thread, so not allowed). Yet, stuff that is legal but harmful it those other places, well that's just not on.

However, that aside, I completely agree that FGM is abhorrent, although in my eyes male circumcision is also very, um, unpleasant.

If I could end FGM and similar things happening, with a click of my fingers tomorrow, I would. So I wouldn't call myself a cultural relativist exactly. But on the whole, this is a very complex issue IMO.

Well, I think the view of myself would be that you can do what you like as long as it doesn't harm other people. Whether or not you hurt yourself, is kind of your own responsibility but as soon as you impact other people, then it isn't a personal choice. And yes, there is a lot in Irish/Western society that I dislike because the above doesn't apply.

Paddy Cow

meeeeh wrote: »

So what is your solution? What should we do? Complain on internet how terrible they are? Talk to them nicley? If you don't want to use force, what is left there. And btw plenty of 3 year olds get abused here and nothing happens to the abusers. Maybe we should deal with our own **** first before we decide that other peoples way of life is inferior to ours.

There is no need to use force on these people. They don't even have electricity! The Bolivian Government could step in and say that from now on they are going to have a local police station that people can chose to report their crimes to. There is no chance that the population will up and leave as in this day and age it's unlikely they will find a large enough area of land to settle upon where the government agrees to leave them to basically govern themselves.

I think their way of life is inferior to ours. While I agree that there probably are cases of 3 year olds being abused and their abusers getting away with it, I don't know of any case where a 3 year old has been abused, the abuser found and the child is told that if they don't forgive their abuser, then they are just as guilty. Abuse in their culture is rife because the people are uneducated with no one to turn to and the "wise" elders want to cover it up. They are also lead to believe that they must lead lives of suffering in order to get into heaven and forgiving their abusers is more a test of their strength, than surviving the abuse they suffered.

Think back to Ireland not so long ago and the abuse that went on. We were left to sort it out ourselves and many innocent people suffered because of this. Would it have been better if someone had at least tried to intervene and and sped up the natural social evolution? How many children would have been raised by their mothers instead of being adopted if the laundries had been closed down even ten years before they were? How many children shoved into institutions would've been spared years of abuse if some cheeky foreginer had tried to instill their values on us?

Ireland has come along way and while we have a lot to answer for in the past, in the present we are not that bad and should know the dangers of letting the church rule the home.

seenitall wrote: »

I don't know about that. Isn't it also a bit insulting to people living under oppression to imply we know what's best for them better than they do? As, believe it or not, because of the extreme nature of brainwashing going on in these places (aka religions and customs), a lot of the people you or I would feel are victims, feel that their lives are just fine, proper and godly. You can never put a price on a blissful after-life, can you?

<snip>

It said in the article that the victims wanted counselling but the elders decided it would be better if it was simply forgotton about. The older women had other victims and their sisters/friends to talk to but the younger victims had no one. One 11 year old knew that something had happened as she woke up with pain down below so bad she had to go to hospital and her father insisted it would be better if she was never told (like she couldn't have pieced it together). I think her mother was also raped but the daughter didn't know this.

The elders even went so far as to lie to their congregation. The victims were lead to believe that there was no counsellors available who spoke low German but other colonies had offered to pay for counsellors speaking this language. The elders simply wouldn't accept the help because they thought that a) the women didn't need it and it would all blow over and b) the other counsellors were just using this as an excuse to corrupt the congregation.

This is definitely a case of people living under oppression knowing what's best for them but being denied that help. I can't do anything from behind my computer screen but I can't help hoping that the Bolivian Government steps in and does something about this. Given how simple their lifestyle is they are not likely to face heavily armed rebels if they try to bring law and order to the community and I think that's part of the problem. The community lives off the grid and therefore aren't an economic or political asset to the government, so why should they bother with them? The government is probably hoping this blows over as well and doesn't attract too much attention. I would hope the government isn't so cold and values human life more than that but the bitter cynic in me believes it to be so.

Amirani

These figures today are quite startling: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/10/asia-pacific-rape-survey

The study focused on 6 countries - Bangladesh, China, Cambodia, Indonesia, Papua New Guinea and Sri Lanka. Since this is probably the most populous region on Earth, most of these percentages translate to absolutely huge numbers.

• 25% of men in the Asia-Pacific region have committed rape at least once.
• 75% of those who had committed rape said they did so because they felt sexually entitled; more than half said they did it for entertainment.
• 70% of all the men surveyed reported suffering no legal consequences for their actions, with that figure as high as 96.5% in Sri Lanka.
• Bougainville in Papua New Guinea recorded the heaviest prevalence of rape of any kind, where 62% of respondents admitted to having committed rape.

Some truly sickening statistics there.

List of "places I will never go*" now updated







*except possibly with a rusty knife + training

Catari Jaguar

An 8 year old Yemen child bride has just died from internal injuries caused by her 40 year old husband on her "wedding night"

Activists in Yemen and around the world hope to end the practice of marrying young girls — at least one as young as 3 years old, in one media report — to men in rural areas. Although the Yemen government instituted an age minimum of 17 for marriage in 2009, the new law has been deemed by many in rural areas as “un-Islamic.” The country’s parliament plans to review the law this month for a final decision.

Note the religious link there. Would I be wrong in blasting this too?? Is this just my "disgusting chip on my shoulder against religion?"

Should that little girl not have been taken away from her family? Even if it is their culture does it make it right? Am I just being judgmental? If her culture/religion - even the minority- didn't accept & promote child brides/paedophilia (only word I can think that suits this) would she still have been raped?