Cyclists in bus lanes (cut from 'giving way to buses' thread)

ezra_pound

A report setting out transport priorities up to 2018 says that road space for private cars will be reduced in Dublin as part of efforts to improve journey times and get more people on to public transport.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dublin-drivers-face-more-restrictions-to-make-way-for-buses-29482729.html

TheChizler

Spook_ie wrote: »

Surely that is one of the points being made that cyclists should cede to buses

If you wish to diversify the thread to include why Joe in a Micra should cede to Joe in Range Rover it's going to get very confusing and perhaps should be in it's own thread

I see you modified your post whilst I was typing, how much of the lifetimes fares on a bus go to revenue in the form of some kind of taxation?

I added the last paragraph, didn't change anything.

I'm pointing out that if you want to allocate rights to the roads based on how much of a tax (the proceedings of which probably don't make much of a dent in the annual roads budget, if it didn't just go into a general pot) is paid, you're going to have to apply that reasoning to everybody on the roads, which is obviously nonsensical.

Spook_ie

Jawgap wrote: »

So do slow taxi drivers and other buses - cyclists as road users are permitted to use "bus" lanes. Until they change the law that's just one of life's little inconveniences people will just have to put up with..........

Do the majority of cyclists in Bus Lanes hold up buses.....Answer Yes or No, fairly easy to see if they do by taking a bus and sitting at the front if the bus is constantly behind a cyclist then yes they do, if the bus isn't constantly behind a cyclist then no they don't but I suspect that even the cyclists know the actual answer

dubrov

Spook_ie wrote: »

we would need to allow for the wear caused to roads by buses etc. having to break and accelerate due to cyclists in the bus lane.

Wow, just wow!

Spook_ie

TheChizler wrote: »

I added the last paragraph, didn't change anything.

I'm pointing out that if you want to allocate rights to the roads based on how much of a tax (the proceedings of which probably don't make much of a dent in the annual roads budget, if it didn't just go into a general pot) is paid, you're going to have to apply that reasoning to everybody on the roads, which is obviously nonsensical.

Nobodies allocating rights to the road based on taxes, I'm merely proving that certain classes of road user do pay more tax than others based on their usage of the road, none of which actually has anything to do with cyclists holding up buses by cycling in front of them instead of allowing public transport to actually serve it's purpose

Spook_ie

dubrov wrote: »

Wow, just wow!

Actually no, just physics and engineering

Jawgap

Spook_ie wrote: »

Do the majority of cyclists in Bus Lanes hold up buses.....Answer Yes or No, fairly easy to see if they do by taking a bus and sitting at the front if the bus is constantly behind a cyclist then yes they do, if the bus isn't constantly behind a cyclist then no they don't but I suspect that even the cyclists know the actual answer

I don't know, because I know neither how many cyclists there are, how many of them use bus lanes and how many hold up buses, but yes, cyclists legitimately using a bus lane can and do hold up other road users legitimately or otherwise also using a bus lane. So what?

I do know that this day last week no cyclist was holding up a Dublin Bus anywhere

mitosis

monument wrote: »

60 people and 40 people -- bicycle, bus, and car:







But because all of these move and the static footprint isn't the real footprint, this is the important image:

That's all fine and well (and OT), but when I had my car out today there were three of us in it, a bag of spuds, two large bags of groceries, a suitcase and a carry-all. All your illustrations are actually worthless in the real world.

Spook_ie

Jawgap wrote: »

I don't know, because I know neither how many cyclists there are, how many of them use bus lanes and how many hold up buses, but yes, cyclists legitimately using a bus lane can and do hold up other road users legitimately or otherwise also using a bus lane. So what?

I do know that this day last week no cyclist was holding up a Dublin Bus anywhere

No but they were probably holding up the Aircoach, Swords Express and numerous other coach/bus firms and their passengers

beauf

TheChizler wrote: »

The Average Joe in a Micra contributes less tax than the Average Joe in a Land Rover, therefore the Average Joe in a Land Rover IS contributing more to the roads.

For that reason I demand that vehicles with lower fuel consumption should give way to vehicles with higher fuel consumption, as they pay more X-tax. As is the logical conclusion of the above argument.

The Land Rover also consumes more of the resources. It's net contribution may be less than the Micra.

:-)

Jawgap

Spook_ie wrote: »

No but they were probably holding up the Aircoach, Swords Express and numerous other coach/bus firms and their passengers

I'd say definitely rather than probably - again no law was being broken so coach / bus drivers, taxi drivers and their passengers will just have to suck it up until the law is changed.

TheChizler

beauf wrote: »

The Land Rover also consumes more of the resources. It's net contribution may be less than the Micra.

:-)

My point exactly. I was parodying spook's post.

beauf

mitosis wrote: »

That's all fine and well (and OT), but when I had my car out today there were three of us in it, a bag of spuds, two large bags of groceries, a suitcase and a carry-all. All your illustrations are actually worthless in the real world.

Hardly a typical daily load of a average bus passenger.

Irish emigration maybe.

beauf

TheChizler wrote: »

My point exactly. I was parodying spook's post.

ah lol I'm still thinking of that fry earlier.

monument

mitosis wrote: »

That's all fine and well (and OT), but when I had my car out today there were three of us in it, a bag of spuds, two large bags of groceries, a suitcase and a carry-all. All your illustrations are actually worthless in the real world.

1.55

That's the car occupancy rate for cars crossing into Dublin city centre. That's the real world of most traffic in our cities and towns -- not your car with three people in it.

bigar

Jack Kyle wrote: »

Are you even reading other people's posts before inflicting your views on us?

I'm talking about cyclists BLOCKING a road while there's a perfectly good cycling lane off the road - i.e. motorists being completely obstructed unnecessarily. Cyclists who do that are the inconsiderate ones and deserve to be blasted out of it with the horn. And if the same cyclist gets mangled in an accident, well it's a tragedy of course, but he/she has brought it on themselves with their "holier than thou/we own the road" bullsh1t.

Maybe time to bring up the many cars parked or "just stopping for a minute" on bicycle lanes, bus lanes, double yellow lines (and sidewalks) holding up plenty of traffic. Very often they do it very close to a legal parking spot. Now who is inconsiderate and has a holier than thou approach?

monument

Spook_ie wrote: »

Average Joe on a bike contributes tax 1 Without any contribution to infrastructure, Average Joe in a car contibutes tax 1 + x ( x = partial contribution to infra structure ), Average Joe on Public Transport contributes tax 1 plus y ( y = fare costs which incorporate a degree of costs in the fare towards infrastucture), therefore Average Joe the cyclist is paying less tax.

Please explain how you think "Average Joe on a bike" is "Without any contribution to infrastructure" while the others do?

You have yet to explain this and yet to explain away the context of what other have said about (1) cyclists paying PRSI, (2) motor tax on car/s they mostly or sometimes leave at home, (3) roads being paid by general tax pool and not motor tax, (4) motorists not covering the costs of motoring and (5) public transport being highly subsidised -- uses can't pay more than cyclist if public transport costs vastly more than the user pays.

Spook_ie wrote: »

But again you are disregarding the thread, Cyclists in bus lanes (cut from 'giving way to buses' thread) none of your arguments or trying to drag taxis into will sway the fact that so far cyclists do hold up buses in bus lanes

This is the commuting and transport forum -- all sorts of transport is taken into account in discussion -- even when that is not convenient for some. You seem to have no problem discussing the merits of other transport vs cycling when you think it suits you.

John_C

Instead of showing a person's county, maybe number plates could show your tax band. That way we'd know who should yield to whom at junctions etc...

Spook_ie

monument wrote: »

1.55

That's the car occupancy rate for cars crossing into Dublin city centre. That's the real world of most traffic in our cities and towns -- not your car with three people in it.

How can you quote 1.55 and then say that's the real world people don't come in 1.55's unless you have some butcher chopping off the legs or something!

Spook_ie

monument wrote: »

Please explain how you think "Average Joe on a bike" is "Without any contribution to infrastructure" while the others do?

You have yet to explain this and yet to explain away the context of what other have said about (1) cyclists paying PRSI, (2) motor tax on car/s they mostly or sometimes leave at home, (3) roads being paid by general tax pool and not motor tax, (4) motorists not covering the costs of motoring and (5) public transport being highly subsidised -- uses can't pay more than cyclist if public transport costs vastly more than the user pays.




This is the commuting and transport forum -- all sorts of transport is taken into account in discussion -- even when that is not convenient for some. You seem to have no problem discussing the merits of other transport vs cycling when you think it suits you.

Point 1

Takes a deep breath... because this seems to be non understandable by yourself, but I'll try once more


You have a standardised unit, this unit is Average Joe, this units net contribution is set as zero or a base line

You have a standardised unit, this unit is Average Joe using a car, his net contribution is zero PLUS whatever taxes are from the car

I really don't see how much more simplyfying of it I can do for you!

Point 2 I know this is the commuting and transport forum, it says so on the top, however, as this subject has been specifically removed from a previous thread and specifically renamed by yourself perhaps you need to reconsider why you split it away in the first place

Spook_ie

John_C wrote: »

Instead of showing a person's county, maybe number plates could show your tax band. That way we'd know who should yield to whom at junctions etc...

Would it not be far easier that you yield to vehicles in the bus lanes and that you didn't unnecessarily hold up public transport.

beauf

Why not have car yield to buses at all times also. You see a bus behind, you have to pull over.

Spook_ie

beauf wrote: »

Why not have car yield to buses at all times also. You see a bus behind, you have to pull over.

Because there's no need, you only need to give way to buses entering or leaving a buslane for it to work.

You could put the icing on the cake and for buses that are behind you when you're traveling at a snails pace, such as JCBs Tractors Cyclists Grannies etc. being fined for holding them up for longer than say 2 mins without pulling over to enable them to pass

beauf

Sure there is buses don't only move in bus lanes. Bus pulls up to a queue of cars, they all have to pull over to let the bus past. It pays more tax, it carries more people. What blocks buses more than anything is cars.

If you want more buses you need less cars. If you want something that doesn't get caught in road traffic congestion use a bike or the train.

Aard

This thread has descended into a comedy goldmine. I can no longer tell where naivete ends and parody begins.

Spook_ie

beauf wrote: »

Sure there is buses don't only move in bus lanes. Bus pulls up to a queue of cars, they all have to pull over to let the bus past. It pays more tax, it carries more people. What blocks buses more than anything is cars.

If you want more buses you need less cars. If you want something that doesn't get caught in road traffic congestion use a bike or the train.

Can always tell when people are losing arguments by how desperate they get with suggestions

beauf

Spook_ie wrote: »

Can always tell when people are losing arguments by how desperate they get with suggestions

Yes cyclists are losing this argument...

PAUL MELIA – 26 OCTOBER 2009

BUS journey times through Dublin city centre have fallen by half since the controversial bus gGate started operating last July.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/bus-gate-halves-journey-times-in-capital-26576538.html

Then theres the Dublin Bikes...

Dublin was the 17th city to implement such a scheme,[2][4] and it is considered one of the most successful bike sharing schemes in the world

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublinbikes

Cookie_Monster

Spook_ie wrote: »

Average Joe on a bike contributes tax 1 Without any contribution to infrastructure, Average Joe in a car contibutes tax 1 + x ( x = partial contribution to infra structure ), Average Joe on Public Transport contributes tax 1 plus y ( y = fare costs which incorporate a degree of costs in the fare towards infrastucture), therefore Average Joe the cyclist is paying less tax.

I own a car, pay tax for it etc
I cycle to work, and only use the car for leisure or shopping in general.
How do I fit into your narrow minded argument?

I pay less fuel tax sure but I've also paid extra VAT on the bike and all the bits, VAT on parts and service for it and produce less emissions & pollution, less wear and tear on the roads and don't add to congestion than if I drove to work everyday.
The bike is also worth more than the car so so the VAT was not insignificant.

All the cycling means I've lost a pile of weight and am much healthier as well so reduced future health costs than otherwise.

Zebra3

The hatred towards cyclists in here is shocking.

A bus gets delayed for a few seconds because of a cyclist. Wow! Why not remove all pedestrian crossings then!!! :rolleyes:

I can only imagine the uproar if every cyclist used a car instead of their bike on the same day.

Certain people in here don't seem to realise the benefits as motorists they get from others choosing to cycle instead.

monument

Spook_ie wrote: »

Point 1

Takes a deep breath... because this seems to be non understandable by yourself, but I'll try once more


You have a standardised unit, this unit is Average Joe, this units net contribution is set as zero or a base line

You have a standardised unit, this unit is Average Joe using a car, his net contribution is zero PLUS whatever taxes are from the car

I really don't see how much more simplyfying of it I can do for you!

Point 2 I know this is the commuting and transport forum, it says so on the top, however, as this subject has been specifically removed from a previous thread and specifically renamed by yourself perhaps you need to reconsider why you split it away in the first place

This has been proven to be untrue a number of times so I'm presuming you're trolling and you will be infracted and banned if you keep this up.

Also against the rules to discuss moderation.

Spook_ie wrote: »

How can you quote 1.55 and then say that's the real world people don't come in 1.55's unless you have some butcher chopping off the legs or something!

More trolling so my reply below is just for others

The rate is actually lower -- it was 1.24 per car in 2012 and not higher than 0.01 more in any if the years reported.

It's an adverage which shows that three people in a car is not typical - not even two are.