Possible FF / FG Coalition – Good for the Economy?

golfwallah

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I asked you a simple question, in that the current Government is duty bound to honour the bailout deal brokered by FF with the Troika, and not just following FF policy out of choice as you appeared to indicate?

I am quite self reliant thank you.

I would have thought that the bailout deal was "brokered" between senior officials from Department of Finance and Central Bank on the Irish side in meetings with their counterparts from the ECB, IMF and EU. It was then signed off on behalf of the Irish authorities by Brian Lenihan, Minister for Finance and Patrick Honohan, Governor Central Bank.

Effectively the terms of this agreement became a large element of government policy and has remained so, with minor amendments since December 2010 - no more, no less.

michael999999

The party of crooks and liars that are fianna fail, should never again hold power in this country.

As for them joining up with Fg, they may aswell. I don't recall any fg members when in opposition calling for a stop to the way fianna fail were raping the country.

There more or less one and the same!

LostBoy101

To be honest FF and FG should merge together as they both the same!

Icepick

LostBoy101 wrote: »

To be honest FF and FG should merge together as they both the same!

One bankrupted the country and the other is fixing at least something both socially and economically.

LostBoy101

Icepick wrote: »

One bankrupted the country and the other is fixing at least something both socially and economically.

While FF were in government FG kept their mouth shuts like nothing happened.

Scortho

LostBoy101 wrote: »

While FF were in government FG kept their mouth shuts like nothing happened.

Too be fair all the parties did.

raymon

Fianna Fail have 4 standard deflections .


1) We all partied
2) FG/SF/Lab would have been worse.
3) FG/SF/Lab were calling for more.
4) FG are the same as FF / should merge

And a new one
5) Cowen's fault

Sorry to see some people falling for them.

michael999999

raymon wrote: »

Fianna Fail have 4 standard deflections .


1) We all partied
2) FG/SF/Lab would have been worse.
3) FG/SF/Lab were calling for more.
4) FG are the same as FF / should merge

And a new one
5) Cowen's fault

Sorry to see some people falling for them.

And according to fianna fail hero bertie ahern if you didn't like it, you could go away and commit suicide!

Mr.Micro

michael999999 wrote: »

And according to fianna fail hero bertie ahern if you didn't like it, you could go away and commit suicide!

The man with no bank account, him and Haughey will always epitomize FF for many people.

Dob74

rumour wrote: »

For years now I just don't get this. Austerity is bad while QE is good. QE in our case translates to more government spending. Why or how would this work? How on earth can we even pay back the money let alone answer who would lend to us?
I may be obtuse but I'd like a solid explanation as to how this works otherwise it's simply ludicrous.

QE = more money in circulation, debt less as a percentage for gov and individuals, commodities more expensive, deficit reduction achieved by economic growth.

Austerity = less money in circulation, debt for gov and individuals remains high, commodities cheaper, deficit reduction achieved by cutting spending and raising taxes. Will work unless economy contracts like has been happening in (piigs) countries.

Labour, left wing economists, US democrats go for the QE option.

FF/FG , conserative economists, tories, US republicians go for the Austerity option.
Both i would consider legitimate options based on your political opinions. Personally I would go for the QE option.

And to get to the point of the thread a FF/FG or FG/FF merger would make sence. They are the same in all but name.

Icepick

Dob74 wrote: »

QE = more money in circulation, debt less as a percentage for gov and individuals, commodities more expensive, deficit reduction achieved by economic growth.

You forgot the negative effect on financially prudent people.

LostBoy101

What we need in the economy at the moment is investment in ciruclation of the economy and I'm very critical of austerity as it shown to be crippling the working class.

Good loser

Dob74 wrote: »

QE = more money in circulation, debt less as a percentage for gov and individuals, commodities more expensive, deficit reduction achieved by economic growth.

Austerity = less money in circulation, debt for gov and individuals remains high, commodities cheaper, deficit reduction achieved by cutting spending and raising taxes. Will work unless economy contracts like has been happening in (piigs) countries.

Labour, left wing economists, US democrats go for the QE option.

FF/FG , conserative economists, tories, US republicians go for the Austerity option.
Both i would consider legitimate options based on your political opinions. Personally I would go for the QE option.

And to get to the point of the thread a FF/FG or FG/FF merger would make sence. They are the same in all but name.

It hasn't happened to date and won't happen in the forseeable future.

There must be (and is) a good reason for this.

At present the total vote and seats for FF/FG is 60% to 65%. If they merged their combined vote quickly will fall to around 40%.

Why merge? The electorate like things as they are. They want a choice on the non-socialist side - their voting decisions vary with perceived competency, honesty and self interest.

LostBoy101

Good loser wrote: »

It hasn't happened to date and won't happen in the forseeable future.

There must be (and is) a good reason for this.

At present the total vote and seats for FF/FG is 60% to 65%. If they merged their combined vote quickly will fall to around 40%.

Why merge? The electorate like things as they are. They want a choice on the non-socialist side - their voting decisions vary with perceived competency, honesty and self interest.

Which would be great for the country

Good loser

LostBoy101 wrote: »

Which would be great for the country

Neither I, nor the country, would agree. Even if it happened Labour (say) or Sinn Fein would drift towards New Labour style or the French or German Social Democrats.

'Socialist' parties can only spend, spend, spend when out of power. An exception would be the last FF Govt.

golfwallah

Good loser wrote: »

It hasn't happened to date and won't happen in the forseeable future.

There must be (and is) a good reason for this.

At present the total vote and seats for FF/FG is 60% to 65%. If they merged their combined vote quickly will fall to around 40%.

Why merge? The electorate like things as they are. They want a choice on the non-socialist side - their voting decisions vary with perceived competency, honesty and self interest.

I don't think anyone is seriously proposing a merger between FF & FG quite yet.

But, coalition, well that's another thing altogether and, given enough voter support for each party, could be a viable possibility after the next election.

golfwallah

Dob74 wrote: »

QE = more money in circulation, debt less as a percentage for gov and individuals, commodities more expensive, deficit reduction achieved by economic growth.

Austerity = less money in circulation, debt for gov and individuals remains high, commodities cheaper, deficit reduction achieved by cutting spending and raising taxes. Will work unless economy contracts like has been happening in (piigs) countries.

Labour, left wing economists, US democrats go for the QE option.

FF/FG , conserative economists, tories, US republicians go for the Austerity option.
Both i would consider legitimate options based on your political opinions. Personally I would go for the QE option.

And to get to the point of the thread a FF/FG or FG/FF merger would make sence. They are the same in all but name.

This recent article in FT outlines reasons why QE isn’t solving problems for the UK (e.g. major customers aren’t buying whatever the value of the currency and innovation / technology / skills are much more relevant than the Sterling exchange rate): http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/a10a649a-098f-11e3-ad07-00144feabdc0.html#!

The article also has an interesting report on how Spain is starting to dramatically increase its exports as a consequence of austerity at home.

These are more good reasons why investment in wealth creating activities are more in our long term interests than pouring scarce resources into day to day overspending in public services and welfare (and increasing money supply to do it).

Agreed that it would be logical for FG & FF to merge, but I don't think it's on the cards just yet ..... for all the usual political reasons.

Dob74

golfwallah wrote: »

This recent article in FT outlines reasons why QE isn’t solving problems for the UK (e.g. major customers aren’t buying whatever the value of the currency and innovation / technology / skills are much more relevant than the Sterling exchange rate): http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/a10a649a-098f-11e3-ad07-00144feabdc0.html#!

The article also has an interesting report on how Spain is starting to dramatically increase its exports as a consequence of austerity at home.

These are more good reasons why investment in wealth creating activities are more in our long term interests than pouring scarce resources into day to day overspending in public services and welfare (and increasing money supply to do it).

Agreed that it would be logical for FG & FF to merge, but I don't think it's on the cards just yet ..... for all the usual political reasons.

Not a surprise the FT would endorse pro Austerity measures.
I am the sure Wall Street Journal would have a similar opinions. While Paul Klugman of the New York Times would be in favour of QE.
Personally i think it's a matter of opinion.


Interesting the ERSI have come out to claim house prices are on the way up. This is a very bad thing and will make the irish economy more expensive. I am a home owner and it won't make one bit of differents what my house is worth. I'll still have the same bills. Expensive house prices are just a tax on the young. Rip of ireland alive and well.

ardmacha

golfwallah wrote:

These are more good reasons why investment in wealth creating activities are more in our long term interests than pouring scarce resources into day to day overspending in public services and welfare (and increasing money supply to do it).

A significant part of public expenditure is on education, which is very definitely an investment in wealth creation, as the FT says skills are what the country needs. Notably though the percentage of public expenditure spent on education in Ireland is one of the lowest in the OECD. While this may be distorted by bank bailout expenditure, education spending per student is also one of lowest in the OECD as a percentage of GDP, as it has always been, although it has risen a bit in recent years as GDP has declined.

Count Dooku

ardmacha wrote: »

A significant part of public expenditure is on education, which is very definitely an investment in wealth creation, as the FT says skills are what the country needs. Notably though the percentage of public expenditure spent on education in Ireland is one of the lowest in the OECD. While this may be distorted by bank bailout expenditure, education spending per student is also one of lowest in the OECD as a percentage of GDP, as it has always been, although it has risen a bit in recent years as GDP has declined.

a) GDP and GNP are heavily distorted by MNCs activities
b) if it will be no jobs, then education will be investment into wealth creation somewhere else

golfwallah

Dob74 wrote: »

Not a surprise the FT would endorse pro Austerity measures.
I am the sure Wall Street Journal would have a similar opinions. While Paul Klugman of the New York Times would be in favour of QE.
Personally i think it's a matter of opinion.

Interesting the ERSI have come out to claim house prices are on the way up. This is a very bad thing and will make the irish economy more expensive. I am a home owner and it won't make one bit of differents what my house is worth. I'll still have the same bills. Expensive house prices are just a tax on the young. Rip of ireland alive and well.

QE = Printing Money = Inflation – good for those with borrowings because it dilutes the value of their loans in real terms over time but bad for those with savings and those on fixed incomes (e.g. pensions). We in Ireland can do little about this, as decisions in this regard are made at EU level and strongly influenced by Germany. So changing this means pulling out of the Euro / EU, which most people would not favour right now. Moreover, inflating our way out of problems didn’t work when we had the Punt and we don’t really want to go back there either.

Austerity = keeping government spending in line with income – good for those with savings and those on fixed incomes, bad for those with borrowings unless they can increase their earnings. But the real benefits are pressure to change entrenched bad practices in the delivery of public services and reduction in the overall burden of debt, which is a huge tax on everyone. Given we are tied to the Euro and to a bailout program, this is the solution that we have to live with right now.

As you say, it’s a matter of opinion, whether you’re a borrower or saver, as to whether you favour QE or Austerity. But common sense, to me, is it’s better to try to work your way out of a problem (austerity) rather than use slight of hand (i.e. QE). There is a lot we can do about this through education / training / support of entrepreneurship – it plays to our strengths in this country.

And remember, young people today will eventually get old and will not want to be put into penury by QE / inflation.

As for inflated house prices - few favour that, other than landowners and developers, who use their position in the value chain to reap huge unearned profits at the expense of the ordinary working man and woman. But there is a lot we can do about that too, if the political will is there.

theequaliser

This proposal would leave the Republic of Ireland heading for dictatorship, something close to North Korea style. We came close to it when Bertie and Co were drunk on power and the Sindo canonising them weekly.

As for the current coalition, they will probably implode anyway as is their form historically(and then who would take over?)

Perhaps Sinn Fein should join with FF and Labour and form a 'proper-left alliance'. How about it!

golfwallah

theequaliser wrote: »

This proposal would leave the Republic of Ireland heading for dictatorship, something close to North Korea style. We came close to it when Bertie and Co were drunk on power and the Sindo canonising them weekly.

As for the current coalition, they will probably implode anyway as is their form historically(and then who would take over?)

Perhaps Sinn Fein should join with FF and Labour and form a 'proper-left alliance'. How about it!

What you're saying is obvious and intentional gross exaggeration. There is no comparison whatsoever between the situation in North Korea and Ireland.

Yes, Bertie & Co. did mess up and pretty badly at that. But, unlike North Korea, we in Ireland are fortunate to have democratic choice and duly exercised it to throw out that government in the last general election.

The same fate is likely to befall the present government, who got elected on the promise of fixing the economy but whose progress is slower than most people would like.

Maybe we should stop feeling sorry for ourselves and looking backwards to demonise those who messed up. This is not North Korea, we can look forward and make choices without fear of retribution from anyone.

Look at some of the things JFK had to say about us, when he addressed the Dail in June 1963:

“This is an extraordinary country. George Bernard Shaw, speaking as an Irishman, summed up an approach to life. “Other people see things and say, why? But I dream of things that never were and say, why not?”

It’s that quality of the Irish – a remarkable combination of hope, confidence and imagination that is needed more than ever today. For I sincerely believe that your future is as promising as your past is proud......

The problems of the world cannot possibly be solved by sceptics or cynics, whose horizons are limited by the obvious realities. We need men who can dream of things that never were and ask, why not?”

theequaliser

Unfortunately its been 50years since JFK was here and have we progressed?

No amount of fancy speeches will alter our future, its only good airtime for politicians.

If a politician was asked to say what they were really thinking, they would be speechless!

Republic of Ireland is dead and gone, its with O' Leary in the grave.:o

Mr.Micro

theequaliser wrote: »

This proposal would leave the Republic of Ireland heading for dictatorship, something close to North Korea style. We came close to it when Bertie and Co were drunk on power and the Sindo canonising them weekly.

It was cringing indeed.

theequaliser wrote: »

As for the current coalition, they will probably implode anyway as is their form historically(and then who would take over?)

Not so sure that will happen, in that things should improve in the economy and some of the worst may be over. I am sure there are plenty of headaches ahead as well.

theequaliser wrote: »

Perhaps Sinn Fein should join with FF and Labour and form a 'proper-left alliance'. How about it!

FF are hardly left, but it would get into bed with anyone to get into power again.

Mr.Micro

golfwallah wrote: »

The same fate is likely to befall the present government, who got elected on the promise of fixing the economy but whose progress is slower than most people would like.

How fast can a bankrupt economy be fixed? At least the current lot are trying to fix things and not wrecking the economy. If people are stupid enough to not see that steps are being made in the right direction and that not all of us will agree with the measures. The alternative is what?

Count Dooku

Mr.Micro wrote: »

How fast can a bankrupt economy be fixed? At least the current lot are trying to fix things and not wrecking the economy. If people are stupid enough to not see that steps are being made in the right direction and that not all of us will agree with the measures. The alternative is what?

Economy is not in so bad shape. The only problem that government is spending like property bubble still continue. The only thing what require is to admit that country spends too much and reduce public spending

golfwallah

Mr.Micro wrote: »

How fast can a bankrupt economy be fixed? At least the current lot are trying to fix things and not wrecking the economy. If people are stupid enough to not see that steps are being made in the right direction and that not all of us will agree with the measures. The alternative is what?

How quickly can the economy be fixed - how long is a piece of string?

I think you have to remember is that the terms of the Bailout with the Troika are what is determining policy right now - no matter who is in power.

And the main bone of contention at the moment is whether we should use savings on stuff like the promissory notes to pay the debt quicker or pour into day to day public spending.

The good thing about democracy is that there is always an alternative. It's not a perfect system and it is competitive enough to remind those in office that Hubris is usually followed by Nemesis.

Getting into office depends on what constituency you are playing to and if there are enough votes there to get you elected. You've got to give the market what it wants and, I'm hopeful, that next election will focus on long term sustainable solutions rather than short term quick fixes.

The electorate will judge the performance of both parties in government and make their choices based on that performance and on party policies, come the next election.

Agreed that some right steps are being made in and not all of us agree with the measures - that's life!

theequaliser

Good to see discussion on both sides of the debate. However, we are heading for another 'bail-out', there will be no option.

Small businesses are crucified by inept and backward looking Local Authorities and their Agents and County Councillors through increased rates, metro north levies, increased planning levies, water rates on schools(need I go on)

Once there is an absence of 'vision' within the powers that be, then we are just pedalling to a stand-still.

Dr.Tank Adams

FF and FG are essentially the same thing in a different guise imo, neither have proved to be paticularly good for the economy in the past and I see no reason why that would change if they joined.