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Possible FF / FG Coalition – Good for the Economy?
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Deleted User wrote: »She is a shill for a rotten corrupt pack of liars. It is a free country so where are the other voices ? somehow she keeps getting aired by RTE. A huge failure of democracy in Ireland has been our press and in particular the lack of impartiality in RTE.
Personal abuse and name calling are no substitute for logical civil debate. And there are other voices: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/oherlihy-to-call-for-fgff-alliance-at-beal-na-mblath-29489419.html
Moreover, competition is strengthening for RTE, particularly now that RTE are being made to balance their books, etc.
Again, why do you have to resort to name calling and unsubstantiated personal accusations? Trying to frighten off anyone with contrary views, expressing an opinion?Deleted User wrote: »Many in RTE are relatives of the tramps in FF who ruined the country.
And, politicians of all shades have relatives in almost every organisation in the country - so what is your point?Deleted User wrote: »Vitriol is deserved for the scum and their associate's who ruined peoples lives.
People who support or try to defend FF are worse than fools they deserved to be ridiculed and their idiocy pointed out to them at all opportunities.
Again, if your only contribution to the debate on this issue is abuse and name-calling, you should re-read the forum charter:
"Your posts must contribute to debate, not derail it or drag it into mob chanting."
"If your posts consists of little more than a statement that some group of people or other are bad people and/or deserve prison/execution as traitors, think long and hard before pressing "submit", because we'll be treating that as trolling from here on in".0 -
golfwallah wrote: »
Moreover, competition is strengthening for RTE, particularly now that RTE are being made to balance their books, etc.
We will see, that may be the proposal but will it be realized?
Some months ago, could have been last year, Nationwide visited Mary O'Rourke and plugged her book that was just out. How about that for free advertizing. RTE is not impartial.0 -
FF is right of centre? :pac:golfwallah wrote: »Actually, there are plenty of plausible reasons why a right of centre majority government
They are socialists/populists/whatever.0 -
carpejugulum wrote: »FF is right of centre? :pac:
They are socialists/populists/whatever.
Most people would agree that both descriptions pretty much apply to both FF & FG. Both are middle of the road, leaning more towards support of enterprise, social self-reliance and more sustainable borrowings. In contrast, Labour makes too much of a priority of maintaining a higher than we can afford public service and welfare burden.
It's a question of degree really, IMO, but enough to make a significant positive impact on our long term borrowings and debt servicing costs. This will be far more beneficial to working people and the economy than throwing unsustainable amounts of borrowed money on current spending.0 -
golfwallah wrote: »Most people would agree that both descriptions pretty much apply to both FF & FG. Both are middle of the road, leaning more towards support of enterprise, social self-reliance and more sustainable borrowings. In contrast, Labour makes too much of a priority of maintaining a higher than we can afford public service and welfare burden.
It's a question of degree really, IMO, but enough to make a significant positive impact on our long term borrowings and debt servicing costs. This will be far more beneficial to working people and the economy than throwing unsustainable amounts of borrowed money on current spending.
I think you are mixing your parties up.
Surely " makes too much of a priority of maintaining a higher than we can afford public service and welfare burden. " describes the actions of Fianna Fail .
Also "throwing unsustainable amounts of borrowed money on current spending. " describes Fianna Fail.
I would never describe Fianna Fail as " leaning more towards support of enterprise, social self-reliance and more sustainable borrowings. "
None of your statements in that post make sense.0 -
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Everyone should be followed into the polling booth, and anyone spotted voting for a member of Fianna Fáil should be hauled out, and have all future voting privileges removed.
I'd say I'm shocked at the notion of people voting for Fianna Fáil, but my surprise at human stupidity ceased, long ago.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Everyone should be followed into the polling booth, and anyone spotted voting for a member of Fianna Fáil should be hauled out, and have all future voting privileges removed.
I'd say I'm shocked at the notion of people voting for Fianna Fáil, but my surprise at human stupidity ceased, long ago.
That's very similar with what I think should be done with people who vote Sinn Fein. The ULA and Mick Wallace.0 -
HurtLocker wrote: »That's very similar with what I think should be done with people who vote Sinn Fein. The ULA and Mick Wallace.
I'd happily extend it to all parties.0 -
[Deleted User] wrote: »Everyone should be followed into the polling booth, and anyone spotted voting for a member of Fianna Fáil should be hauled out, and have all future voting privileges removed.
I'd say I'm shocked at the notion of people voting for Fianna Fáil, but my surprise at human stupidity ceased, long ago.
Just because you don't like what a party stands for, does etc doesn't mean that voters shouldn't be allowed vote for them.
What your advocating is an end to democracy.0 -
Just because you don't like what a party stands for, does etc doesn't mean that voters shouldn't be allowed vote for them.
What your advocating is an end to democracy.
Of course people should be allowed to vote for whom they wish, but a point of interest, the last FF government was not always too bothered about democracy. Two by-elections were put on hold for so long, that court action was taken by Pearse Doherty in 2008.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11833139. The other one was Waterford. FF were not in the least worried that these people had no representation in the Dail.0 -
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Of course people should be allowed to vote for whom they wish, but a point of interest, the last FF government was not always too bothered about democracy. Two by-elections were put on hold for so long, that court action was taken by Pearse Doherty in 2008.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11833139. The other one was Waterford. FF were not in the least worried that these people had no representation in the Dail.
They also used their majority in government to ram legislation through with no amendments at all. It's a common enough process to modify legislation during drafting, debating, etc. Blasphemy law was an excellent example of their abuse of a voting majority in the dail that didn't remotely reflect the will of the people.0 -
I think you are mixing your parties up.
Surely " makes too much of a priority of maintaining a higher than we can afford public service and welfare burden. " describes the actions of Fianna Fail .
Also "throwing unsustainable amounts of borrowed money on current spending. " describes Fianna Fail.
I would never describe Fianna Fail as " leaning more towards support of enterprise, social self-reliance and more sustainable borrowings. "
None of your statements in that post make sense.
I would agree that FF were at the helm in the last government and has had to accept the lion’s share of the blame for mistakes in:
• Spending truck loads of bubble tax revenues on increased social welfare, pensions and public service benchmarking (buying popularity)
• Allowing / regulating huge borrowings backed by inflated asset values (“light touch” regulation, bad judgement / leadership supported by “group think”)
• When the bubble finally burst, the unlimited bank bail-out (we don’t know the full story but Anglo tapes point toward deception)
But this is all with the benefit of hindsight. And the parties that were urging more government spending whilst in opposition now sit in judgement of FF wrongs, while they spend up to the absolute limit of the bailout terms agreed by FF with the Troika 3 years ago.
It also prompts the questions: Are we satisfied with the current FG / Labour coalition? Can we spend our way out of recession? Are there alternative?
There is no perfect choice. No matter how turned off we are over past FF mistakes, we are in a hole and need to work our way out. Labour’s policy is to borrow & spend our way out through Joan Burton’s high social welfare / pensions and Brendan Howlin’s protection of high public service costs.
At best this policy is a stopgap, at worst buying popularity. Borrowing is better used to invest in projects / enterprises that will create long term sustainable wealth in the future.
I’m not particularly enamoured with any of them but the real question is whether FG/Labour or FG/FF are more likely to get us out of the economic mess quicker and more sustainably.0 -
golfwallah wrote: »I would agree that FF were at the helm in the last government and has had to accept the lion’s share of the blame for mistakes in:
• Spending truck loads of bubble tax revenues on increased social welfare, pensions and public service benchmarking (buying popularity)
• Allowing / regulating huge borrowings backed by inflated asset values (“light touch” regulation, bad judgement / leadership supported by “group think”)
• When the bubble finally burst, the unlimited bank bail-out (we don’t know the full story but Anglo tapes point toward deception)
But this is all with the benefit of hindsight. And the parties that were urging more government spending whilst in opposition now sit in judgement of FF wrongs, while they spend up to the absolute limit of the bailout terms agreed by FF with the Troika 3 years ago.
It also prompts the questions: Are we satisfied with the current FG / Labour coalition? Can we spend our way out of recession? Are there alternative?
There is no perfect choice. No matter how turned off we are over past FF mistakes, we are in a hole and need to work our way out. Labour’s policy is to borrow & spend our way out through Joan Burton’s high social welfare / pensions and Brendan Howlin’s protection of high public service costs.
At best this policy is a stopgap, at worst buying popularity. Borrowing is better used to invest in projects / enterprises that will create long term sustainable wealth in the future.
I’m not particularly enamoured with any of them but the real question is whether FG/Labour or FG/FF are more likely to get us out of the economic mess quicker and more sustainably.
But you are not making a coherent case for the return of Fianna Fail.
The following again describes Fianna Fail : high social welfare / pensions and protection of high public service costs.
Im still not seeing your point.0 -
golfwallah wrote: »But this is all with the benefit of hindsight. And the parties that were urging more government spending whilst in opposition now sit in judgement of FF wrongs, while they spend up to the absolute limit of the bailout terms agreed by FF with the Troika 3 years ago.
Is there a choice? Reduced services all across the board, hospitals, social services, education, the works. The limit of the bailout terms would easily be breached and still the damage done by FF would not be corrected.golfwallah wrote: »At best this policy is a stopgap, at worst buying popularity. Borrowing is better used to invest in projects / enterprises that will create long term sustainable wealth in the future.
What projects would be appropriate? I am sure if there were such obvious projects then the current Government would be setting them up. Emigration is the thing as far as a I can see and shipping our problems overseas. What would FF do if it had to solve what it wreaked?0 -
But you are not making a coherent case for the return of Fianna Fail.
The following again describes Fianna Fail : high social welfare / pensions and protection of high public service costs.
Im still not seeing your point.
There is none.
They just think that they'll sail back into power in time for 2016 thanks to the landmines they left for the current government.0 -
But you are not making a coherent case for the return of Fianna Fail.
The following again describes Fianna Fail : high social welfare / pensions and protection of high public service costs.
Im still not seeing your point.
The point you don’t want to see is the choice between 2 pragmatic parties (FG / FF), favouring enterprise and self reliance, working together in government as opposed to FG continuing in coalition with doctrinaire Labour.
Granted, FF messed up by spending excessively on social welfare / pensions and high public service costs during the Celtic Tiger years.
But their main opponents, FG & Labour, were urging even more spending at the time. And, like it or not, the current government are still implementing the terms of the MOU with the ECB/IMF/EU “Troika”, signed by Brian Lenihan and Patrick Honohan (albeit slightly amended year on year since 2011).
Coming up to Budget 2013, we’ve seen heated ideological argument between FG & Labour about the choice between using savings from the promissory note deal on welfare / public services or on debt reduction.
Look – none of these parties are perfect. Much as we would like it, we are not in a position to pick from perfection – only from those putting themselves forward.
And the main choices shaping up for the next election are between a coalition comprising Labour, who want to retain high spending social welfare / pensions / public services, and traditionally more pragmatic centrist parties like FG / FF, who favour quicker debt reduction and more self reliance.
The electorate will decide, as usual, based each voter’s perception of what is in their own best interest.0 -
Name pragmatic major economic policies from FF.golfwallah wrote: »The point you don’t want to see is the choice between 2 pragmatic parties (FG / FF), favouring enterprise and self reliance, working together in government as opposed to FG continuing in coalition with doctrinaire Labour.
Granted, FF messed up by spending excessively on social welfare / pensions and high public service costs during the Celtic Tiger years.
But their main opponents, FG & Labour, were urging even more spending at the time. And, like it or not, the current government are still implementing the terms of the MOU with the ECB/IMF/EU “Troika”, signed by Brian Lenihan and Patrick Honohan (albeit slightly amended year on year since 2011).
Coming up to Budget 2013, we’ve seen heated ideological argument between FG & Labour about the choice between using savings from the promissory note deal on welfare / public services or on debt reduction.
Look – none of these parties are perfect. Much as we would like it, we are not in a position to pick from perfection – only from those putting themselves forward.
And the main choices shaping up for the next election are between a coalition comprising Labour, who want to retain high spending social welfare / pensions / public services, and traditionally more pragmatic centrist parties like FG / FF, who favour quicker debt reduction and more self reliance.
The electorate will decide, as usual, based each voter’s perception of what is in their own best interest.
All I hear is populist nonsense, creative accounting and outright nepotism.0 -
Name pragmatic major economic policies from FF.
All I hear is populist nonsense, creative accounting and outright nepotism.
Many commentators are of the view that there are practically no differences between FF & FG, unlike the major ideological differences that exist between FG & Labour:
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/james-downey-yes-a-fine-gael-coalition-with-fianna-fail-will-cause-rifts-but-itll-also-liven-up-our-dull-politics-29488399.html
If you want to go into the specifics of policies from any of the parties, just look at their websites - and it will be 2 years or so till the next elections, so plenty of time for policies to emerge.0 -
golfwallah wrote: »The point you don’t want to see is the choice between 2 pragmatic parties (FG / FF), favouring enterprise and self reliance, working together in government as opposed to FG continuing in coalition with doctrinaire Labour.
Granted, FF messed up by spending excessively on social welfare / pensions and high public service costs during the Celtic Tiger years.
But their main opponents, FG & Labour, were urging even more spending at the time. And, like it or not, the current government are still implementing the terms of the MOU with the ECB/IMF/EU “Troika”, signed by Brian Lenihan and Patrick Honohan (albeit slightly amended year on year since 2011).
Coming up to Budget 2013, we’ve seen heated ideological argument between FG & Labour about the choice between using savings from the promissory note deal on welfare / public services or on debt reduction.
Look – none of these parties are perfect. Much as we would like it, we are not in a position to pick from perfection – only from those putting themselves forward.
And the main choices shaping up for the next election are between a coalition comprising Labour, who want to retain high spending social welfare / pensions / public services, and traditionally more pragmatic centrist parties like FG / FF, who favour quicker debt reduction and more self reliance.
The electorate will decide, as usual, based each voter’s perception of what is in their own best interest.
There is no evidence to support your claim that FF is a pragmatic centrist party that favours quicker debt reduction and more self reliance.
In fact FF have proven to be quite the opposite.0 -
There is no evidence to support your claim that FF is a pragmatic centrist party that favours quicker debt reduction and more self reliance.
In fact FF have proven to be quite the opposite.
The MOU with the ECB/IMF/EU “Troika” signed off by Brian Lenihan and Patrick Honohan in November 2010 is still largely being implemented by the current government (albeit with minor amendments year on year).
Might be worth your while to have a read.0 -
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golfwallah wrote: »The MOU with the ECB/IMF/EU “Troika” signed off by Brian Lenihan and Patrick Honohan in November 2010 is still largely being implemented by the current government (albeit with minor amendments year on year).
Might be worth your while to have a read.
We were told, if my memory serves me right, that there was no absolutely no negotiation possible on this deal(bailout deal), set in stone when it was struck. So I presume that the current Government has no choice but to honour the deal with the Troika? Perhaps you can dispute this?0 -
We were told, if my memory serves me right, that there was no absolutely no negotiation possible on this deal(bailout deal), set in stone when it was struck. So I presume that the current Government has no choice but to honour the deal with the Troika? Perhaps you can dispute this?
You will note from the original MOU of 2010 that, amongst other things http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=6856:
“Progress in the implementation of the policies under the programme will be monitored through quarterly and continuous performance criteria, indicative targets, structural benchmarks, and quarterly programme reviews and compliance with requirements under the Excessive Deficit Procedure (EDP)”
If you would like more clarification, why not just study the document yourself and all the subsequent reports on the quarterly reviews?
All this stuff is readily available in the public domain – all you need to do is do a few Google searches and then take the time to read it.
So, why rely on me to answer your questions on the subject, when it's so easy to be self-reliant?0 -
So that's none as expected.golfwallah wrote: »Many commentators are of the view that there are practically no differences between FF & FG, unlike the major ideological differences that exist between FG & Labour:
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/james-downey-yes-a-fine-gael-coalition-with-fianna-fail-will-cause-rifts-but-itll-also-liven-up-our-dull-politics-29488399.html
If you want to go into the specifics of policies from any of the parties, just look at their websites - and it will be 2 years or so till the next elections, so plenty of time for policies to emerge.0 -
Italy don't have the cash, spain don't have the cash, Portugal don't have the cash, Grecce don't have have the money and we don't have the money.
So instead of going cap in hand to Germany individually, why not build a coalition of countries that need QE to releave the debt burden. It may mean paying more for our new samsung but it's better than allowing economic malaise to continue.
FF/FG want and think Austerity works. Personally i think it's economic suicide.
The eurozone is copying Japan and will be economicly stagnant for years to come.
For years now I just don't get this. Austerity is bad while QE is good. QE in our case translates to more government spending. Why or how would this work? How on earth can we even pay back the money let alone answer who would lend to us?
I may be obtuse but I'd like a solid explanation as to how this works otherwise it's simply ludicrous.0 -
QE has been going on for years. Trillions have ben printed and all we have is an inflated stock market and a blip in GDP stats.For years now I just don't get this. Austerity is bad while QE is good. QE in our case translates to more government spending. Why or how would this work? How on earth can we even pay back the money let alone answer who would lend to us?
I may be obtuse but I'd like a solid explanation as to how this works otherwise it's simply ludicrous.0 -
Is there a choice? Reduced services all across the board, hospitals, social services, education, the works. The limit of the bailout terms would easily be breached and still the damage done by FF would not be corrected.
With the high levels of waste and inefficiency in public services, there are plenty of choices and opportunities for savings. But, as Edison said: “Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work”.
I guess it’s much easier to keep looking backwards and play the blame game, than to roll up your sleeves and engage meaningfully with stakeholders to solve problems in a positive manner.What projects would be appropriate? I am sure if there were such obvious projects then the current Government would be setting them up. Emigration is the thing as far as a I can see and shipping our problems overseas. What would FF do if it had to solve what it wreaked?
I can’t see you getting much support from anyone, if all you can offer as solutions are a negative attitude and emigration.
As for the current government .... the whole point of this thread is that so much scarce ministerial time is being spent on clashes over ideological differences, that they haven’t the time to sort out the real issues. There has to be a better alternative.
Real engagement with stakeholders will produce lots of appropriate wealth generating projects to put time, money and effort into, such as:
• Debt reduction – saving drain caused by interest payments and higher than necessary interest rates.
• Broadband – needed to enable more effective trade in goods & services, commercial interactions and cross border investment.
• Training – particularly in areas that play to our strengths, e.g. new technologies, agriculture, etc.
• Energy
o Wind
o Solar
o Tidal
o Hydro
o Insulation support
o More effective regulation, e.g. to control huge average pay costs in ESB.
• Enterprise Ireland – more effective support of new business ventures.
• Water conservation / rainwater harvesting.
• More effective ongoing review / re-organisation of public services:
o Health
o Public Transport, e.g.
Linking Dublin Airport to city centre
Better competition
o Social Welfare – to encourage more work / self-reliance
o Pensions – actuarial review to determine what is affordable and how funded – followed up by action.
o Public Service Pensions.0 -
golfwallah wrote: »With the high levels of waste and inefficiency in public services, there are plenty of choices and opportunities for savings. But, as Edison said: “Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work”.
I guess it’s much easier to keep looking backwards and play the blame game, than to roll up your sleeves and engage meaningfully with stakeholders to solve problems in a positive manner.
I can’t see you getting much support from anyone, if all you can offer as solutions are a negative attitude and emigration.
As for the current government .... the whole point of this thread is that so much scarce ministerial time is being spent on clashes over ideological differences, that they haven’t the time to sort out the real issues. There has to be a better alternative.
Real engagement with stakeholders will produce lots of appropriate wealth generating projects to put time, money and effort into, such as:
• Debt reduction – saving drain caused by interest payments and higher than necessary interest rates.
• Broadband – needed to enable more effective trade in goods & services, commercial interactions and cross border investment.
• Training – particularly in areas that play to our strengths, e.g. new technologies, agriculture, etc.
• Energy
o Wind
o Solar
o Tidal
o Hydro
o Insulation support
o More effective regulation, e.g. to control huge average pay costs in ESB.
• Enterprise Ireland – more effective support of new business ventures.
• Water conservation / rainwater harvesting.
• More effective ongoing review / re-organisation of public services:
o Health
o Public Transport, e.g.
Linking Dublin Airport to city centre
Better competition
o Social Welfare – to encourage more work / self-reliance
o Pensions – actuarial review to determine what is affordable and how funded – followed up by action.
o Public Service Pensions.
I was not proposing emigration as a policy, but a necessity for many people in order to survive, as a result of the FF economic disaster.
Lets see now, Wind farms plenty of those being developed, only this week a big uproar about a development in the midllands. So too many of those being developed IMO. All the other ones could have/ should have been developed under FF when their was excess money in the coffers. You have not come up with anything that is not being done now to solve the problems or create sustainable jobs. You mention pensions that were increased by FF to levels that cannot now be afforded, so FG/Lab should reduce them now and FF be blameless? Regulation and FF, lol.0 -
golfwallah wrote: »You will note from the original MOU of 2010 that, amongst other things http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=6856:
“Progress in the implementation of the policies under the programme will be monitored through quarterly and continuous performance criteria, indicative targets, structural benchmarks, and quarterly programme reviews and compliance with requirements under the Excessive Deficit Procedure (EDP)”
If you would like more clarification, why not just study the document yourself and all the subsequent reports on the quarterly reviews?
All this stuff is readily available in the public domain – all you need to do is do a few Google searches and then take the time to read it.
So, why rely on me to answer your questions on the subject, when it's so easy to be self-reliant?
I asked you a simple question, in that the current Government is duty bound to honour the bailout deal brokered by FF with the Troika, and not just following FF policy out of choice as you appeared to indicate?
I am quite self reliant thank you.0 -
I was not proposing emigration as a policy, but a necessity for many people in order to survive, as a result of the FF economic disaster.
Lets see now, Wind farms plenty of those being developed, only this week a big uproar about a development in the midllands. So too many of those being developed IMO. All the other ones could have/ should have been developed under FF when their was excess money in the coffers. You have not come up with anything that is not being done now to solve the problems or create sustainable jobs. You mention pensions that were increased by FF to levels that cannot now be afforded, so FG/Lab should reduce them now and FF be blameless? Regulation and FF, lol.
You asked what projects would be appropriate and offered emigration and shipping our problems overseas as the necessity for many to survive. Regretfully, emigration has become a solution for many people, in the absence of positive government action required to create opportunities for people at home.
You may laugh all you like and pour scorn on the previous government. Agreed FF messed up and your approach may make you feel good for a little while. But we all know it will not solve our country’s problems.
We also know that problems are not solved by looking backwards to the past, they are solved by analysis, working with stakeholders to develop solutions and taking the action needed to implement them. This requires leadership and a government with unity of purpose. Sadly, after 30 months in power, not enough is being done to change from a culture of dependency / welfare as opposed to self-reliance. Unfortunately, the “solutions” (or excuses for inaction) people are seeing are the negative things you are putting forward.
Ultimately, the electorate will deliver judgement on those currently in power – and by the look of recent opinion polls, labour are perceived as ineffectual and are in for a beating, leaving the field open for an FG / FF alternative.0 -
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golfwallah wrote: »The MOU with the ECB/IMF/EU “Troika” signed off by Brian Lenihan and Patrick Honohan in November 2010 is still largely being implemented by the current government (albeit with minor amendments year on year).
Might be worth your while to have a read.
There is nothing in the memo of understanding to suggest that FF is a pragmatic centrist party that favours quicker debt reduction and more self reliance.
The memo is just another treacherous artifact of Fianna Fail's legacy.0
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