Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Possible FF / FG Coalition – Good for the Economy?
Options
-
08-08-2013 9:49pm#1Given the background of in-fighting between FG and Labour in government and the impact this has on the pace of change needed to fix the economy, it is interesting to see a former FF Minister, Mary O’Rourke, calling for serious consideration of a FF / FG Coalition in the next election: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ff-stalwart-mary-wants-to-go-into-coalition-with-fine-gael-29482702.html
After 30 months in power, the current FG / Labour coalition, coming from conflicting political / economic outlooks, is looking more and more ineffectual by the minute. Instead of focussing all their efforts on taking decisive action to create and foster business and self-reliance, we hear constant harping on about austerity (i.e. balancing the books), fighting the Troika, maintaining social welfare and tardiness in tackling inefficiencies and waste in the public service.
And, all the while, our public debt is growing – placing yet greater tax burdens on taxpayers today and for many years to come.
Let’s face it, we’re in a crisis almost as great as that faced by Winston Churchill when he became prime minister in May 1940, but with few significant wins to show for it. Within 30 months of gaining control, Churchill and his generals produced their first real victory at El Alemein, in November 1942. No, he wasn’t perfect, but he knew how to be decisive and produce results.
Perhaps Mary O’Rourke is right. I really think it’s getting closer to a time for more decisive government that a FF / FG coalition would produce. It may take a few more years yet – just as Churchill was an unthinkable option in 1939 .... maybe things have to get a lot worse before we think seriously about the unthinkable?0
Comments
-
golfwallah wrote: »Given the background of in-fighting between FG and Labour in government and the impact this has on the pace of change needed to fix the economy, it is interesting to see a former FF Minister, Mary O’Rourke, calling for serious consideration of a FF / FG Coalition in the next election: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ff-stalwart-mary-wants-to-go-into-coalition-with-fine-gael-29482702.html
After 30 months in power, the current FG / Labour coalition, coming from conflicting political / economic outlooks, is looking more and more ineffectual by the minute. Instead of focussing all their efforts on taking decisive action to create and foster business and self-reliance, we hear constant harping on about austerity (i.e. balancing the books), fighting the Troika, maintaining social welfare and tardiness in tackling inefficiencies and waste in the public service.
And, all the while, our public debt is growing – placing yet greater tax burdens on taxpayers today and for many years to come.
Let’s face it, we’re in a crisis almost as great as that faced by Winston Churchill when he became prime minister in May 1940, but with few significant wins to show for it. Within 30 months of gaining control, Churchill and his generals produced their first real victory at El Alemein, in November 1942. No, he wasn’t perfect, but he knew how to be decisive and produce results.
Perhaps Mary O’Rourke is right. I really think it’s getting closer to a time for more decisive government that a FF / FG coalition would produce. It may take a few more years yet – just as Churchill was an unthinkable option in 1939 .... maybe things have to get a lot worse before we think seriously about the unthinkable?
FF/FG coalition would make more sense than the current coalition. But i don't think it would be good for the economy. I am sure selected businesses like those owned by well connected businessmen that own newspapers and radio stations will get there debt written off. While the rest of us are squezed for every penny.
Labour have been weak in coalition. Having the likes of Noonan in Finance sickens me. He is stuck in the past. Growing our way out of the depression, not cutting our way out, is our only option. The american have the right attitude QE has cut unemployment. In Europe Austerity has unemployment over 10% and no signs of it going down. Economic stagnation for the Eurozone for the forseeable future
For the record even though britian was on the winning side of ww2. It could be considered that they lost and America won. The brits lost there empire and ended the war completely bankrupt.0 -
FF/FG coalition would make more sense than the current coalition. But i don't think it would be good for the economy. I am sure selected businesses like those owned by well connected businessmen that own newspapers and radio stations will get there debt written off. While the rest of us are squezed for every penny.
Labour have been weak in coalition. Having the likes of Noonan in Finance sickens me. He is stuck in the past. Growing our way out of the depression, not cutting our way out, is our only option. The american have the right attitude QE has cut unemployment. In Europe Austerity has unemployment over 10% and no signs of it going down. Economic stagnation for the Eurozone for the forseeable future
For the record even though britian was on the winning side of ww2. It could be considered that they lost and America won. The brits lost there empire and ended the war completely bankrupt.
That can't happen and won't happen. Because we ain't got the cash.0 -
Recent evidence of the need for more decisive government is contained in the Global Competitiveness Report 2012 – 2013, published by the World Economic Forum.
http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_GlobalCompetitivenessReport_2012-13.pdf
For example:
• Page 4, under “THE 12 PILLARS OF COMPETITIVENESS”:
o The high levels of public debt coupled with low growth, insufficient competitiveness, and political gridlock in some European countries stirred financial markets’ concerns about sovereign default and the very viability of the euro.
• Page 13 –“Table 3, Global Competitiveness Index 2012 – 2013 and 2011 – 2012 comparisons”, ranks Ireland 27th - certainly, not the worse but we could do a lot better.
• Page 14 – “Table 4, The Global Competitiveness Index 2012–2013 shows we are 35th under “Basic Requirements”
• Page 16 –“Table 5, The Global Competitiveness Index 2012–2013”: The “Basic Requirements” heading shows that one factor pushing down our overall ranking quite significantly (to 131st) is Ireland’s ranking for the macroeconomic environment – the 3rd of the “12 pillars of competitiveness”:
o “The government cannot provide services efficiently if it has to make high-interest payments on its past debts. Running fiscal deficits limits the government’s future ability to react to business cycles and to invest in competitiveness-enhancing measures”.
Irish Partner Institutes of the World Economic Forum are Institute for Business Development and Competitiveness at the School of Economics, University College Cork and FORFAS.0 -
Good loser wrote: »That can't happen and won't happen. Because we ain't got the cash.
Italy don't have the cash, spain don't have the cash, Portugal don't have the cash, Grecce don't have have the money and we don't have the money.
So instead of going cap in hand to Germany individually, why not build a coalition of countries that need QE to releave the debt burden. It may mean paying more for our new samsung but it's better than allowing economic malaise to continue.
FF/FG want and think Austerity works. Personally i think it's economic suicide.
The eurozone is copying Japan and will be economicly stagnant for years to come.0 -
Out of the frying pan in to the furnace.0
-
Advertisement
-
golfwallah wrote: »Given the background of in-fighting between FG and Labour in government and the impact this has on the pace of change needed to fix the economy, it is interesting to see a former FF Minister, Mary O’Rourke, calling for serious consideration of a FF / FG Coalition in the next election: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/ff-stalwart-mary-wants-to-go-into-coalition-with-fine-gael-29482702.html
After 30 months in power, the current FG / Labour coalition, coming from conflicting political / economic outlooks, is looking more and more ineffectual by the minute. Instead of focussing all their efforts on taking decisive action to create and foster business and self-reliance, we hear constant harping on about austerity (i.e. balancing the books), fighting the Troika, maintaining social welfare and tardiness in tackling inefficiencies and waste in the public service.
And, all the while, our public debt is growing – placing yet greater tax burdens on taxpayers today and for many years to come.
Let’s face it, we’re in a crisis almost as great as that faced by Winston Churchill when he became prime minister in May 1940, but with few significant wins to show for it. Within 30 months of gaining control, Churchill and his generals produced their first real victory at El Alemein, in November 1942. No, he wasn’t perfect, but he knew how to be decisive and produce results.
Perhaps Mary O’Rourke is right. I really think it’s getting closer to a time for more decisive government that a FF / FG coalition would produce. It may take a few more years yet – just as Churchill was an unthinkable option in 1939 .... maybe things have to get a lot worse before we think seriously about the unthinkable?
The fact that most Irish people vote for either Fianna Fail or Fine Gael would suggest that most people want a centrist government. I will qualify this statement by acknowledging that left wingers would consider these parties to be right win and right wingers like myself would consider them to be bolshevic in the extreme but I think most people are left wing enough to consider FF and FG to be centrist. Anyway the point I want to make is this. If most people want a "centrist" government and if FF and FG are centrist then a coalition of these two parties would give most people what they want.
The civil war politics has been very damaging to this country because it has allowed Labour to divide and conquer to two larger parties and thereby push its Stalinist agenda to the ruination of the country. Anyone who recalls Bertie Aherns hysterical giveaway policies must concede these were the consequence of trying to out-labour the Labour party and as a consequence the country is bankrupt.
A FF/FG coalition would be strong enough to face down the Trotsky types once and for all.0 -
realitykeeper wrote: »Anyone who recalls Bertie Aherns hysterical giveaway policies must concede these were the consequence of trying to out-labour the Labour party and as a consequence the country is bankrupt.
Ahern wanted to and did buy the elections, nothing whatsoever to do with Labour, it was pure disgraceful excess and irresponsibility from the odious Ahern, nothing else.realitykeeper wrote: »A FF/FG coalition would be strong enough to face down the Trotsky types once and for all.
I could not disagree more. A one party state is what we would end up with and no opposition. How democratic would that be? Allowing FF back into Government is a very dangerous scenario. How much more proof is needed, it sold out the country. What next?0 -
Italy don't have the cash, spain don't have the cash, Portugal don't have the cash, Grecce don't have have the money and we don't have the money.
So instead of going cap in hand to Germany individually, why not build a coalition of countries that need QE to releave the debt burden. It may mean paying more for our new samsung but it's better than allowing economic malaise to continue.
FF/FG want and think Austerity works. Personally i think it's economic suicide.
The eurozone is copying Japan and will be economicly stagnant for years to come.
Germany and the ECB have helped us significantly - as they have the other countries.
Austerity is to make us independant of help. There is not a choice. Running a €7 bn budget deficit anyway is a long way from austerity.0 -
Ahern wanted to and did buy the elections, nothing whatsoever to do with Labour, it was pure disgraceful excess and irresponsibility from the odious Ahern, nothing else.
Isn’t it curious how we can come up with all the right reasons for failure and making wrong choices – but with hindsight, after the event? Unfortunately, at election time, it’s not so easy to make predictions. We don’t have all the facts when given the actual choice between different candidates and parties.
The key issues in election campaigns (i.e. “the promises”) are not the ones we now put down as the cause of dramatic economic failure.
Let’s have a quick look at what actually happened in those campaigns:
• 2007: Debate centred on the suitability of Bertie for Taoiseach and then moved on to more mundane stuff like hospital beds, gardai and pupil/teacher ratios (and whether Enda had enough experience to deliver). Bertie’s suitability was an issue but not enough to convince the voters. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_general_election,_2007
• 2002: The Irish economy was booming, unemployment was low and the outgoing government was stable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_general_election,_2002
• 1997: Choice was between “Rainbow” coalition (centre left) or FF led centre right coalition with PDs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_general_election,_1997
“In a democracy you get the government you deserve and deserve the government you get”.I could not disagree more. A one party state is what we would end up with and no opposition. How democratic would that be? Allowing FF back into Government is a very dangerous scenario. How much more proof is needed, it sold out the country. What next?
Hold on there! We’re not talking about a “one party state” just yet. And even if a coalition between FF & FG emerges after the election, it will be as a result of the choice of the people. We will also have a clear "conviction based" opposition. Democracy again – it ain’t perfect but it is, despite its failings, better than any other systems that are around. At the end of the day, you always have the choice of going forward yourself – if you feel driven enough to do what it takes to get elected (and, hopefully, can retain your integrity along the way).0 -
golfwallah wrote: »And even if a coalition between FF & FG emerges after the election, it will be as a result of the choice of the people. We will also have a clear "conviction based" opposition.
What democracy in this country is increasingly amounting to is the parties supported by the British-owned tabloid media being elected. Now, maybe we can put that down to the dreadful state of the primary and secondary educational system, with people leaving it barely able to read and write, never mind not having even heard of the concept of critical thinking. Maybe it's down to 20 years of money flowing into the country and peoples pockets for the minimum of effort, very few having had to work all that hard for a job paying more than one could earn in a more competitive economy.
The next election will be very interesting. I suspect that a lot of people will still remember the tabloids lampooning of FF from the last election, and that will keep their vote down in spite of the performance - or lack thereof - of the current coalition. Labour will most likely suffer as they will deservedly lose most of their core vote, having dumped all of their ideals for money and power. How FG will fare will be the most interesting aspect. They have placed the cost of the failure of private banks squarely onto their middle class core voters, and that's unlikely to be popular. However, FG's core vote is unlikely ever to switch to FF or Labour, and I would doubt that Sinn Fein as the only other significant party will benefit much from this, with their core vote in the Republic coming from misplaced nationalism and far left dole scammers. That said, Sinn Fein's support for conservative fiscal policy (while presenting themselves as socialist) in Northern Ireland may well swing them some votes from this quarter.
Honestly though, I know as little about what will happen at the next election as anyone else. Given the current policy of propping up the banks with our money while still allowing them to ride roughshod over all of us though, I'm not optimistic.0 -
Advertisement
-
golfwallah wrote: »“In a democracy you get the government you deserve and deserve the government you get”.
Yes indeed that is true.golfwallah wrote: »Hold on there! We’re not talking about a “one party state” just yet. And even if a coalition between FF & FG emerges after the election, it will be as a result of the choice of the people.
No hopefully not. When did the voters in Ireland ever know what was good for them, lol. They voted in Ahern and his lot again and again. When his lot bankrupted the country, then put in the other lot, FG/Labour. Now that the pain is there they want to revert back to FF, to begin the cycle again. Never thinking of an alternative or the big picture. That's democracy FF or FG and maybe FG/FF :eek::eek::eek::eek:0 -
No hopefully not. When did the voters in Ireland ever know what was good for them, lol. They voted in Ahern and his lot again and again. When his lot bankrupted the country, then put in the other lot, FG/Labour. Now that the pain is there they want to revert back to FF, to begin the cycle again. Never thinking of an alternative or the big picture. That's democracy FF or FG and maybe FG/FF :eek::eek::eek::eek:
Indeed!
But those are the choices we have ..... same in all other countries - you can only pick from the choice set before you - limited and all that this is (to the people who go to the trouble of putting themselves forward).
Maybe we would could do with better candidates or better policies - see link for one view on this subject: http://www.creators.com/opinion/william-murchison/why-we-don-t-have-better-presidential-candidates.html.
Ultimately, if you don't like the candidates or policies and feel you could do better - well ... why not get involved, try to influence policy or, perhaps, even go forward for election yourself?0 -
FF is not good for anything so obviously no.
Looking at Irish economic policies in the last 20 years, the only party I'd vote for is Troika...0 -
carpejugulum wrote: »FF is not good for anything so obviously no.
Looking at Irish economic policies in the last 20 years, the only party I'd vote for is Troika...
I'd agree with this. We're still spending far more than were taking in.
Hopefully a libertarian party will crop up soon. Among my age group (under 25) there is a lot of people who would be capitalists and support the free market while at the same time wouldn't be conservative when it comes to social issues.
At the moment there's no party that ticks those boxes.
The current coalition I believe is hampered by labours fear of cutting spending. The idea that we can constantly spend more than we take in and not run into trouble in the long run still hasn't hit home for a lot of people.
You also have the Irish attitude of wanting loads of services but wanting someone else to pay for them.0 -
-
Given that European Union Membership is very much part of how we are governed anyway and has been for years, the two parties are very close in how the interact in Europe. So does it make much difference
It seems that the parties only differ when it comes to election time and what Parish Pump they want to politic about.
I cannot see them joining, not because of any civil war issues, its all about getting members seats or positions, something which would prove harder as one party/coalition and would more than likely help the growth of opposition parties and independents
Both parties are self serving in everything they do, joining together in any form would go against that. You can be sure that in the Dail Bar etc, they are all friends and that elections/dail debates etc are more optics for the electorate from my experience0 -
This is my personal opinion:
I believe anyone who would still vote Fianna Fail or like to see Fianna Fail anything other than disbanded and past history to be stupid in the extreme or have ulterior corrupt motives.0 -
carpejugulum wrote: »FF is not good for anything so obviously no.
It may be obvious to some but not everyone would agree – as recent opinion polls are showing.
At the end of the day it’s down to choice – by the electorate and the people putting themselves forward for election. Targets agreed with the Troika require a combination of austerity (tax cuts & government spending) and growth. And with growth targets not being met, the next set of choices may be made by the growing number of Labour TDs who want an end to “austerity” on the spending side. This conflicts with their coalition partners, who see no more room for tax hikes.
So, if Labour pulls out, it will be the turn of the electorate to choose from the people putting themselves forward (from Labour, Fine Gael, Fianna Fail, Sinn Fein and others).carpejugulum wrote: »Looking at Irish economic policies in the last 20 years, the only party I'd vote for is Troika...
I’d agree with the sentiment that we need more Troika-like policies but similarly to family situations – parents (not the doctor or school teacher) sometimes have to use “tough love” to ensure their children take their medicine, do their homework, etc.
The Troika represents the bankers providing our otherwise bankrupt state with funds when nobody else will. They are not our elected representatives, who, amongst other things, are supposed to comply with the loan conditions already agreed in the bailout package. Unfortunately, this conflicts with their real priorities of keeping their jobs. And it’s not easy to get re-elected when dishing out tough medicine (even if it’s “good for you”).
Avoiding tough decisions, whether by parents or government, only kicks the problem down the road and causes even more pain later on.0 -
Quote
And, all the while, our public debt is growing – placing yet greater tax burdens on taxpayers today and for many years to come.
Do you really think any other government would be able to stop public debt growth.
Would ff+fg actually take the steps needed to reverse. That is implements a 20% cut in all public service jobs, increase property tax, cut social welfare by 30%, increase taxes by aboutn5% and cut minimum wage to about 6 per hour.
And don't give me "don't pay the bond holders" that's over and done with, and as for tax the rich there simply isn't enough PAYE income to do that so the only way is a property tax that what the 'media' keep winging about.
Nope we are better off with this lot, they will cut back on the austerity and will be in again after the next election. Then it will be back to FF and we can all get back to building one off houses and other unsustainable stuff.0 -
Quote
And, all the while, our public debt is growing – placing yet greater tax burdens on taxpayers today and for many years to come.
Do you really think any other government would be able to stop public debt growth.
Would ff+fg actually take the steps needed to reverse. That is implements a 20% cut in all public service jobs, increase property tax, cut social welfare by 30%, increase taxes by aboutn5% and cut minimum wage to about 6 per hour.
And don't give me "don't pay the bond holders" that's over and done with, and as for tax the rich there simply isn't enough PAYE income to do that so the only way is a property tax that what the 'media' keep winging about.
Nope we are better off with this lot, they will cut back on the austerity and will be in again after the next election. Then it will be back to FF and we can all get back to building one off houses and other unsustainable stuff.
There are plenty of choices other than what we have now.
Even Linda Creighton is preparing to form a new party of “FG rebels”, according to reports this morning: http://www.thejournal.ie/9-at-9-irish-news-1031648-Aug2013/?utm_source=facebook_short0 -
Advertisement
-
golfwallah wrote: »Even Linda Creighton is preparing to form a new party of “FG rebels”, according to reports this morning: http://www.thejournal.ie/9-at-9-irish-news-1031648-Aug2013/?utm_source=facebook_short
The Catholic Church has already had way too much influence over our affairs for me to consider backing any party consisting of Creighton and like-minded individuals.0 -
What's most surprising is that Mammy "luas calculations on the back of an envelope" O'Rourke is allowed on the airwaves to spew her guff at all.0
-
The Catholic Church has already had way too much influence over our affairs for me to consider backing any party consisting of Creighton and like-minded individuals.
Lucinda Creighton has now told The Journal.ie that despite reports, she is "not involved" in talks to form a new political party, so let's wait and see on that one. And, I think the days of Catholic Church influence over our affairs has been largely consigned to history.What's most surprising is that Mammy "luas calculations on the back of an envelope" O'Rourke is allowed on the airwaves to spew her guff at all.
Thankfully, it's a free country and this forum allows people to express their opinions both for and against any particular proposal or on any issue. But, I don't think it's helpful to the debate to engage in personal vitriolic attacks on anyone.0 -
90+% of primary schools, secondary schools, hospitals...golfwallah wrote: »Church influence over our affairs has been largely consigned to history.0 -
Let's think about this ....... FF/Any party ... is it good for the economy?
Nobody has given one plausible reason why FF would be good for the economy.
FF should be ashamed at the destruction they caused have caused already and should not be put into a position where that can do damage again.
It's a pity that economic treason bill didn't go through.0 -
carpejugulum wrote: »90+% of primary schools, secondary schools, hospitals...
Church influence in these areas is not a real issue to most people any more. Granted there are a minority of people who feel strongly on moral (as defined by the Church) issues, but the days when politicians or anyone else feared a “belt of the crozier” are long gone:
Hospitals – now funded largely by the state (including “Voluntary” ones). But whether private, public or voluntary, the staff themselves are becoming more enabled to make their own decisions on moral issues, without fear of church or state repercussions (e.g. passing of Protection of Life during Pregnancy Act 2013).
Schools – Rory Quinn is working on getting more secular management boards ..... Although, my experience a few years ago was that the local priest effectively filled a vacuum as chairman of the board, as it was extremely difficult to get parents involved, because of work commitments, etc.0 -
Actually, there are plenty of plausible reasons why a right of centre majority government would be good for the country economically, once you set aside the recriminations towards individuals in FF who had leadership roles in the last FF / Greens coalition.Let's think about this ....... FF/Any party ... is it good for the economy?
Nobody has given one plausible reason why FF would be good for the economy.
And the only realistic options around at the moment are FG & FF. Granted there’s been some talk about a new “socially & fiscally conservative party” forming and one post here about wanting a fiscally conservative but socially liberal type party .... but talk is cheap ... it’s quite another thing to do it.
As I see it, the main advantage of a strong right of centre government, despite fears about the risk of being “too right wing”, would be being freeing up scarce ministerial time to spend on priorities around fixing the economy (such as real Public Service reform to better fit purpose, moving from a welfare to a self-reliance culture, promoting more effective energy use in a significant way, etc., etc.). Far too much time is currently being spent in-fighting between Labour & FG about protecting public service pay / conditions, social welfare, etc.FF should be ashamed at the destruction they caused have caused already and should not be put into a position where that can do damage again.
It's a pity that economic treason bill didn't go through.
Agreed FF did screw up and I would like to see those in charge (senior political people as well as public servants) being held to account for it. But those individuals are separate from their party and, although political parties can’t be prosecuted in court, FF had to suffer the consequences at the last election.
Let’s face it, FG & Labour didn’t exactly cover themselves in glory as regard the economy when they were in opposition.
Time moves on and I, for one, would prefer a strong, decisive, action oriented centre right government to the indecisive, dithering, borrow and spend, left / right coalition we have at the moment.0 -
golfwallah wrote: »Thankfully, it's a free country and this forum allows people to express their opinions both for and against any particular proposal or on any issue. But, I don't think it's helpful to the debate to engage in personal vitriolic attacks on anyone.
She's a spoofer beyond compare from a family of spoofers who actively damaged the country they were supposed to be working for. Her contributions are of limited public value beyond serving the needs of her party. All the others from that ghoulish cabinet have had the good grace to disappear from public view. She should do likewise.0 -
golfwallah wrote: »
As I see it, the main advantage of a strong right of centre government, despite fears about the risk of being “too right wing”, would be being freeing up scarce ministerial time to spend on priorities around fixing the economy (such as real Public Service reform to better fit purpose, moving from a welfare to a self-reliance culture, promoting more effective energy use in a significant way, etc., etc.).
Everything you describe here is exactly what FF didn't do.0 -
Advertisement
-
golfwallah wrote: »Thankfully, it's a free country and this forum allows people to express their opinions both for and against any particular proposal or on any issue. But, I don't think it's helpful to the debate to engage in personal vitriolic attacks on anyone.
She is a shill for a rotten corrupt pack of liars. It is a free country so where are the other voices ? somehow she keeps getting aired by RTE. A huge failure of democracy in Ireland has been our press and in particular the lack of impartiality in RTE. Many in RTE are relatives of the tramps in FF who ruined the country.
Vitriol is deserved for the scum and their associate's who ruined peoples lives.
People who support or try to defend FF are worse than fools they deserved to be ridiculed and their idiocy pointed out to them at all opportunities.0
![[Deleted User]](/applications/dashboard/design/images/defaulticon.png)
Advertisement