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Uruguay, a shining example to the rest of the world.

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13

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    #62
    jaffacakesyum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,207 ✭✭✭jaffacakesyum


    Mr Benevolent wrote: »
    Meh. A shining example to the world would be Switzerland or Germany. Cannabis legalisation and gay marriage are luxuries, not necessities.

    Oh please Sir afford me the luxury of having the same rights as you. Pretty please?

    :rolleyes: Think you would be happier in Russia tbh


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    #63
    Nemeses
    Registered Users Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭Nemeses


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    Marriage should be considered a human right for both gay and straight people, the objectors have yet to produce a reasonable argument in why it shouldn't.

    Not quite right....

    It should be a human right for two people to be in love with another. Regardless of sexual preference. (Of course within reason too mind you)

    It is not a human right for a legal piece of document (Marriage) for two people to be in love. That is obserd and a pointless ritual.

    If two people are in love and quite happy with each other - great.

    Marriage I find is a load of tripe.


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    #64
    1ZRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,293 ✭✭✭1ZRed


    Nemeses wrote: »
    Not quite right....

    It should be a human right for two people to be in love with another. Regardless of sexual preference. (Of course within reason too mind you)

    It is not a human right for a legal piece of document (Marriage) for two people to be in love. That is obserd and a pointless ritual.

    If two people are in love and quite happy with each other - great.

    Marriage I find is a load of tripe.
    You're just completely biased then because of your distain for marriage. You don't like it, great, then don't ever get married. But some people would like that recognised and to have a marriage. Many people view marriage as a load of tripe, but many don't either.

    I'm not for or against it myself. I can see were both sides come from, but I also see that the latter can make a lot very happy, so I wouldn't abolish it.

    But who are you to say it's not a right to have that option of getting married which means a lot to some people just because you don't like it?


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    #65
    Staff Infection
    Registered Users Posts: 208 ✭✭Staff Infection


    Kevin Irving wrote: »
    Enough druggies on the streets here, harassing people for money. Taking a more lenient approach won't help with this.

    I think the idea is Uruguay will sell cannabis in pharmacies. They are undercutting street dealers price wise with the idea being it is better the government can money on cannabis rather than the street dealers. A portion of this money can then be used to fund education campaigns encouraging users to exercise moderation and raising awareness of methods of harm reduction.

    Basically whether legal or not some people will use drugs. Uruguay has decided to ensure the drugs are of a certain quality to avoid cases of poisoning etc, educate users on the least harmful methods of taking said drugs, direct those with problematic use towards rehabilitation services and make a bit of tax while they are at it.

    I reckon they based it on the failed prohibition of alcohol in America during the 1920's. Better to legalise, regulate and tax the market than let criminals make a fortune selling drugs mixed with god knows what.
    If the police locked up alcoholics instead of suggesting they go to AA we would be up in arms saying they need help not time in prison, yet they lock up drug users instead of directing those with problematic use towards rehabs.


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    #66
    Nemeses
    Registered Users Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭Nemeses


    1ZRed wrote: »
    You're just completely biased then because of your distain for marriage. You don't like it, great, then don't ever get married. But some people would like that recognised and to have a marriage. Many people view marriage as a load of tripe, but many don't either.

    I'm not for or against it myself. I can see were both sides come from, but I also see that the latter can make a lot very happy, so I wouldn't abolish it.

    But who are you to say it's not a right to have that option of getting married which means a lot to some people just because you don't like it?

    Think you misunderstood my post.

    Marriage is not a basic human right. Two people who may be gay / straight / bi whatever the case is - should be allowed to be together without society breathing down their necks!

    Your argument of who am I to say etc etc. Step down for a sec, I'm not against anything. If I choose to do something, then that really affects me.. not you. And likewise to the fellas that choose to get married.


    What I'm trying to say is, IT IS NOT a basic human right to get married.... That is optional.


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    #67
    shane9689
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭shane9689


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Would you like to move to Uruguay to take advantage of these things OP? (Serious question) If not, why not? What are the down-sides of living in Uruguay?

    1. the op might not be gay, he just might support the idea
    2. he might not smoke but if he does he can still get it easily enough in ireland just its illegal
    3. you need a visa
    4. you need spanish to get a job
    5. he may not have the money to travel
    6. hed be leaving his old life here in ireland behind

    more reasons than the ones youre trying to entice...does Uruguay have a higher crime rate? yes it probably does, but its still generally a nice country


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    #68
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Corkfeen wrote: »
    So if marriage was not allowed for straight couples in a third world country , would you say that's an abuse of their human rights? Marriage should be considered a human right for both gay and straight people, the objectors have yet to produce a reasonable argument in why it shouldn't.

    The United States Supreme court and the European Court of Human rights both came to the conclusion that marriage is NOT a right. Don't shoot the messenger.


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    #69
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    jank wrote: »
    Which 'group' is precluded from pursuing economic, social and educational opportunities as you put it?

    It's a general principle.

    Somebody referred to equality and civil rights as luxuries earlier.

    I was referring to equality generally in subsequent comments (for the most part).


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    #70
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    jank wrote: »
    The United States Supreme court and the European Court of Human rights both came to the conclusion that marriage is NOT a right. Don't shoot the messenger.

    Ireland and many other countries have determined that there is a right to marry.


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    #71
    Nemeses
    Registered Users Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭Nemeses


    floggg wrote: »
    Ireland and many other countries have determined that there is a right to marry.

    Ireland is also (somehow) governed under the EU laws as well.

    How is it a Human Right though to get married, It's optional.

    http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/


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    #72
    1ZRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,293 ✭✭✭1ZRed


    Nemeses wrote: »
    Think you misunderstood my post.

    Marriage is not a basic human right. Two people who may be gay / straight / bi whatever the case is - should be allowed to be together without society breathing down their necks!

    Your argument of who am I to say etc etc. Step down for a sec, I'm not against anything. If I choose to do something, then that really affects me.. not you. And likewise to the fellas that choose to get married.


    What I'm trying to say is, IT IS NOT a basic human right to get married.... That is optional.

    Whether you choose to do so or not, you have the right to get married and you've the right to that option. Not everyone is allowed to get married, not everyone has that right to do so. It is a human right for you to be allowed to marry who ever you like, regardless of race and gender and all that, just some places haven't caught up in understanding that yet.


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    #73
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    jank wrote: »
    Ah, its not equality you want. What you want is legislation to be passed where by more rights and money be mandated and spent on certain minority groups because there is a perception of social injustice. Travellers can do what they like in my opinion, so long as they obey the law and respect private property. They should not be given extra rights.

    Providing a little bit of assistance to those who need it isn't giving them extra rights - it's just giving them an extra bit of help that they might need that others don't.

    The government will provide assistance to people with disabilities (whether they are born with them or they are acquired through accidents or misadventure) and to areas are under privileged.

    It's a recognition that a society is only as strong as their weakest member.

    Presumably you wouldn't object to a little extra help being given to a child with dyslexia to over come the difficulties they might face in reading and writing?

    Then why not a child whose parents are illiterate and can't give them the help with homework that other parents would give them.

    That support should ideally be given to any child in the same position, not just travellers.

    I know that many Gael scoileanna run Irish classes for parents so that they might be able to assist their kids with homework because they know how important is. Same principle.

    As I said, that's not something that should be guaranteed as a right but something the state should endeavour to provide where possible.

    I also think its funny that the same people who will complain about criminality and social problems caused by the travelling community will also complain about giving them an educational push which would give them other options.

    As it, unless there is a break in the cycle of disadvantage and illiteracy in the travelling community, it's unlikely that they will move away from the behaviour that some many object to. And it will be very difficult for that break to happen organically.


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    #74
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    Nemeses wrote: »
    Ireland is also (somehow) governed under the EU laws as well.

    How is it a Human Right though to get married, It's optional.

    http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

    There is no EU law regulating marriage to the best of my knowledge.

    You may be thinking of the jurisprudence of the ECHR under the European Convention of Human Rights.

    The ECHR does not take precedence over the Irish Constitution.

    The Irish Courts have expressly held that there is a right to marry (two prisoners sued to be able to get married).

    I'd look it up for you but this has nothing to do with Uruguay, and you didn't bother providing any sources for your claims.


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    #75
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    Nemeses wrote: »
    Ireland is also (somehow) governed under the EU laws as well.

    How is it a Human Right though to get married, It's optional.

    http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

    You know the UDHR includes an express right to marry in Article 16, yeah?

    Many rights are optional - you have the right to free speech if you wish and also the right to silence.


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    #76
    Mr Benevolent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,456 ✭✭✭✭Mr Benevolent


    floggg wrote: »
    You know the UDHR includes an express right to marry in Article 16, yeah?.

    'without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion'

    Where is sexuality mentioned?


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    #77
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    The Backwards Man wrote: »
    How many World Cups have we won again?

    didnt we win de 1990 world cup ye tick ye, Beat Romandia in de findals an all


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    #78
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    floggg wrote: »
    Providing a little bit of assistance to those who need it isn't giving them extra rights - it's just giving them an extra bit of help that they might need that others don't.

    The government will provide assistance to people with disabilities (whether they are born with them or they are acquired through accidents or misadventure) and to areas are under privileged.

    It's a recognition that a society is only as strong as their weakest member.

    Presumably you wouldn't object to a little extra help being given to a child with dyslexia to over come the difficulties they might face in reading and writing?

    Then why not a child whose parents are illiterate and can't give them the help with homework that other parents would give them.

    That support should ideally be given to any child in the same position, not just travellers.

    I know that many Gael scoileanna run Irish classes for parents so that they might be able to assist their kids with homework because they know how important is. Same principle.

    As I said, that's not something that should be guaranteed as a right but something the state should endeavour to provide where possible.

    I also think its funny that the same people who will complain about criminality and social problems caused by the travelling community will also complain about giving them an educational push which would give them other options.

    As it, unless there is a break in the cycle of disadvantage and illiteracy in the travelling community, it's unlikely that they will move away from the behaviour that some many object to. And it will be very difficult for that break to happen organically.

    I have no problem with people volunteering to help out others who are at a disadvantage. I do have a problem where social justice is mandated and laws are passed which guarantees some people more rights than others where we end up in a society where nobody is truly equal. Traveller Kids have the same right to education as the rest of us but I don't see why we should make exceptions for them with limited resources where by we disadvantage other kids. So whats all this about equality?

    If people want to give up their free time and help them out that is fine and welcomed but the state should have it pretty clear cut. There is a place in school for everyone but don't take the piss.


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    #79
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,053 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Nemeses wrote: »
    Think you misunderstood my post.

    Marriage is not a basic human right. Two people who may be gay / straight / bi whatever the case is - should be allowed to be together without society breathing down their necks!

    Your argument of who am I to say etc etc. Step down for a sec, I'm not against anything. If I choose to do something, then that really affects me.. not you. And likewise to the fellas that choose to get married.


    What I'm trying to say is, IT IS NOT a basic human right to get married.... That is optional.

    But it is. It is the universal declaration of human rights.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #80
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    People are getting freedom and equality confused with economic well-being.

    I'd rather be poor and free in Uruguay than wealthy and living in a human-rights ****-hole like Saudi Arabia.


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    #81
    Nemeses
    Registered Users Posts: 1,829 ✭✭✭Nemeses


    mango salsa wrote: »
    But it is. It is the universal declaration of human rights.
    Article 16.

    (1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.
    (2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.
    (3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

    So it does. My bad.

    Then I stand corrected. EVERY human has the right to marry.


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    #82
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,799 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Just a question.. how does allowing drug use equate to a human/equal right exactly?

    I know that AH is populated by mainly "cool" teenagers and 20 year olds but smoking cannabis is not the same as allowing gay marriage or access to education etc

    Plus Ireland has more than enough trouble with alcohol and drug use as it is without encouraging it further - and before people say "that's not gonna happen" just look at any supermarket the night before "Good" Friday or in the run up to Christmas.

    I love a social drink myself (rare though it is these days) but perspective is badly lacking in some of the posts here!


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    #83
    Henlars67
    Registered Users Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭Henlars67


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    Just a question.. how does allowing drug use equate to a human/equal right exactly?

    I know that AH is populated by mainly "cool" teenagers and 20 year olds but smoking cannabis is not the same as allowing gay marriage or access to education etc

    Plus Ireland has more than enough trouble with alcohol and drug use as it is without encouraging it further - and before people say "that's not gonna happen" just look at any supermarket the night before "Good" Friday or in the run up to Christmas.

    I love a social drink myself (rare though it is these days) but perspective is badly lacking in some of the posts here!

    I always ask this, and I've yet to get an answer. Why do people think that making drug use legal will result in increased usage?


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    #84
    darkdubh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,628 ✭✭✭darkdubh


    keith16 wrote: »
    Yep, great footballer and testament to the countries sporting infrastructure that they are able to produce world class footballers given their relative population size.
    And they won The World Cup twice,in 34 and 50 if I'm not mistaken.


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    #85
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »

    Plus Ireland has more than enough trouble with alcohol and drug use as it is without encouraging it further - and before people say "that's not gonna happen" just look at any supermarket the night before "Good" Friday or in the run up to Christmas.


    Yep, the night before a religion based drug prohibition.


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    #86
    Wattle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,075 ✭✭✭Wattle


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    Just a question.. how does allowing drug use equate to a human/equal right exactly?

    I know that AH is populated by mainly "cool" teenagers and 20 year olds but smoking cannabis is not the same as allowing gay marriage or access to education etc

    Plus Ireland has more than enough trouble with alcohol and drug use as it is without encouraging it further - and before people say "that's not gonna happen" just look at any supermarket the night before "Good" Friday or in the run up to Christmas.

    I love a social drink myself (rare though it is these days) but perspective is badly lacking in some of the posts here!

    Well ya know all those people puking fighting pissing and roaring in the streets at closing time? It's not cannabis that makes them do that.


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    #87
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Kaiser2000 wrote: »
    Just a question.. how does allowing drug use equate to a human/equal right exactly?

    Because making criminals out of peaceful people is incredibly cuntish behaviour. Drug laws are not about protecting people - they're little more than moral policing.

    I do agree though that marriage equality is more important.


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    #88
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    Matt_Trakker wrote: »
    Luis Saurez :pac::pac:

    Yes, a mixed race kid from a poor part of the capital who managed to become one of the best strikers in the world through hard work and dedication.

    A great example.


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    #89
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    Kevin Irving wrote: »
    Enough druggies on the streets here, harassing people for money. Taking a more lenient approach won't help with this.

    Portugal proves this line of thinking is a crock of ****e.


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    #90
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    Artful_Badger wrote: »
    This is like a Uruguayan seeing "Ireland legislates for abortion" and saying to his pal, now there's a country that knows what its at. I mean abortion, I hear they also have had several women presidents, their prime minister is a former school teacher, a man of the people with education on his mind and for a small country they produced Roy Keane the greatest player of the greatest club in history !

    I cant wait to emigrate to this utopia !


    Roy Keane never played for A.C. Milan in the early 90's.


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    #91
    flas
    Registered Users Posts: 1,271 ✭✭✭flas


    Kevin Irving wrote: »
    Enough druggies on the streets here, harassing people for money. Taking a more lenient approach won't help with this.

    this is a by-product of the drugs being illegal...


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