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Uruguay, a shining example to the rest of the world.

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24

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    #32
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Omackeral wrote: »
    Their president Jose Mujica is a shining example of the common man. Drives a modest car (read: piece of crap) and donates a good deal of his salary to worthy causes. I learned about him through another boards thread. An awesome dude by all accounts.

    Mujica... F*ck Yeah!

    Doesn't he donate something like 90% of his salary?


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    #33
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,931 ✭✭✭Christy42


    cletus van damme wrote: »
    i agree but there are "more worthy" essentials like food,education etc..

    At what point is it a choice between rights and food? Food requires planning, money etc. Gay marraige requires saying gay people can get married, done. Finished. No need to use up additional resources. The systems for married couples are already in place.

    I really never figured the 'we have more important things to worry about' argument. Legalise it and back to whatever else needs fixing in the country in question. If it requires a referendum then tag it on to the next one you were having anyway and it won't cost that much ink for a few extra lines and boxes.

    Uruguay seems to do somethings very right and others it still has issues with though.


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    #34
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    Mr Benevolent wrote: »
    Really? Preach that in a few third world countries and you'll soon find out how pompous your statement really is.

    Your statement shoes you don't really understand the concept of equality or civil rights.

    Just because a person is being denied equality and civil rights it doesn't mean that they don't deserve them.

    I think you'll find of you go to a third world country where there is discrimination and ask the minority if they deserve equality and civil rights, barring severe cases of Stockholm syndrome, they will almost universally say yes.


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    #35
    Henlars67
    Registered Users Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭Henlars67


    Low unemployment, economic growth, affordable quality health-plans, free secular compulsory education form 4 -18.

    Poverty is being tackled by giving monthly cash payments to those in need, but only on the condition that they do some work in their community and that their children attend school.

    It has the lowest crime rate in South America, though granted that would still leave it a lot higher than here.

    People must assume that because it is in South America that it's automatically a bad place to live.

    That's part of the ingrained racism that try as people might, they'll never be able to get rid of.


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    #36
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    cletus van damme wrote: »
    i agree but there are "more worthy" essentials like food,education etc..

    The concept of equality means that they law should allow everybody to pursue economic and social development on the same terms.

    It is oxymoronic to say that people are entitled to equality and civil rights but that a state should only get around to giving it to them once the state had sorted out its economy or schools.

    Indeed equally demands that a pauper be treated the same in the eyes of the law as a prince (in the absence of an objectively justified reason and subject to the principle of proportionality) so to saw that the pauper should only worry about being equal once he has something to his own name misses the point.


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    #37
    sugar_fiend
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 22 ✭sugar_fiend


    floggg wrote: »
    Equality and civil rights are never a luxury.


    equality is always a subjective term and often a loaded one

    Vincent brownes idea of equality is hiring extra teachers to follow traveller kids around the country so they don't fall behind on their education


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    #38
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    sugar_fiend wrote: »
    equality is always a subjective term and often a loaded one

    Vincent brownes idea of equality is hiring extra teachers to follow traveller kids around the country so they don't fall behind on their education

    No it's ensuring that the system is not set up in such a way that precludes them from participating, whether in principal or in practice.

    That doesn't mean sending teachers to halting sites, simply that the kids from halting sites should be accommodated in public schools.


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    #39
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,746 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    Matt_Trakker wrote: »
    Luis Saurez :pac::pac:

    Yeah, shows the bite that Uruguay is bringing to the world.


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    #40
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    It is easy to look at headline and think that this country or that country is much better than here. Uruguay has massive social problems that would put this countries 'problems' to shame.


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    #41
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    floggg wrote: »
    The concept of equality means that they law should allow everybody to pursue economic and social development on the same terms.
    .

    No it doesn't. Equality should mean that one is equal in the eyes of the law and end there.... However the progressive version of equality is "you have more stuff than me, to be equal the state should confiscate your stuff and give it to me" Liberty before equality first and foremost.


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    #42
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    jank wrote: »
    It is easy to look at headline and think that this country or that country is much better than here. Uruguay has massive social problems that would put this countries 'problems' to shame.

    I don't think any country is perfect and each will have its own unique problems.

    That said, if you were looking for a country that was "closer to perfect" I always thought the Scandinavian countries were a good place to look.

    They certainly have problems (though I can't say im overly familiar with them) but I think in terms of equality legislation, health care, education etc they are often cited as standard setters.

    I think they generally always top or get close to the top of "happiness" indexes as well - though how that is measured I do not know.


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    #43
    sugar_fiend
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 22 ✭sugar_fiend


    floggg wrote: »
    No it's ensuring that the system is not set up in such a way that precludes them from participating, whether in principal or in practice.

    That doesn't mean sending teachers to halting sites, simply that the kids from halting sites should be accommodated in public schools.


    they are accommodated but you can only lead a horse to water


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    #44
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    Uraguay,the Finland that lives to party.


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    #45
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    floggg wrote: »
    I don't think any country is perfect and each will have its own unique problems.

    That said, if you were looking for a country that was "closer to perfect" I always thought the Scandinavian countries were a good place to look.

    They certainly have problems (though I can't say im overly familiar with them) but I think in terms of equality legislation, health care, education etc they are often cited as standard setters.

    I think they generally always top or get close to the top of "happiness" indexes as well - though how that is measured I do not know.

    Ireland has appeared for years at the top of happiness index's. You would never guess that if you went solely by the mood of thejournal.ie or AH.
    Scandinavian countries are generally seen as well run but taxes are through the roof. Of course their culture is totally different to ours as well. They put out party manifestos to raise taxes not lower them. The problem with Ireland is that we think we can have world class services with that someone else pays for. Of course we have the Irish civil service to run things as well, would you trust the state with more of your money? I wouldnt.


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    #46
    1ZRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,293 ✭✭✭1ZRed


    jank wrote: »
    No it doesn't. Equality should mean that one is equal in the eyes of the law and end there.... However the progressive version of equality is "you have more stuff than me, to be equal the state should confiscate your stuff and give it to me" Liberty before equality first and foremost.

    Anyway, what does that have to do with gay marriage? SFA because this is all that we'd want:
    jank wrote:
    Equality should mean that one is equal in the eyes of the law and end there

    So where's the opposition coming from then?


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    #47
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    jank wrote: »
    No it doesn't. Equality should mean that one is equal in the eyes of the law and end there.... However the progressive version of equality is "you have more stuff than me, to be equal the state should confiscate your stuff and give it to me" Liberty before equality first and foremost.

    Get back to me when the first marriage is confiscated and then handed over to a gay couple.


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    #48
    keith16
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,061 ✭✭✭keith16


    anncoates wrote: »
    In fairness, so do we, despite having a shit sporting infrastructure, incompetent football authority and a population of EPL fanboys.

    oh I agree, we can produce world class athletes but this is by accident rather than by design.


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    #49
    Celly Smunt
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,464 ✭✭✭Celly Smunt


    jank wrote: »
    Ireland has appeared for years at the top of happiness index's. You would never guess that if you went solely by the mood of thejournal.ie or AH.
    Scandinavian countries are generally seen as well run but taxes are through the roof. Of course their culture is totally different to ours as well. They put out party manifestos to raise taxes not lower them. The problem with Ireland is that we think we can have world class services with that someone else pays for. Of course we have the Irish civil service to run things as well, would you trust the state with more of your money? I wouldnt.

    The taxes in scandanavian countries are regenerated and put back into society.in Ireland however it seems that our taxes degenerate into an abyss.I think everybody would take the tax hit if we knew Ireland would be anything close to the likes of Finland,Denmark or Norway.(I'll leave Sweden out for the moment.)


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    #50
    Artful_Badger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,339 ✭✭✭Artful_Badger


    This is like a Uruguayan seeing "Ireland legislates for abortion" and saying to his pal, now there's a country that knows what its at. I mean abortion, I hear they also have had several women presidents, their prime minister is a former school teacher, a man of the people with education on his mind and for a small country they produced Roy Keane the greatest player of the greatest club in history !

    I cant wait to emigrate to this utopia !


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    #51
    snubbleste
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 31,117 ✭✭✭✭snubbleste


    Artful_Badger wrote: »
    ...
    I cant wait to emigrate to this utopia !
    boards.uy


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    #52
    sugar_fiend
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 22 ✭sugar_fiend


    Celly Smunt wrote: »
    The taxes in scandanavian countries are regenerated and put back into society.in Ireland however it seems that our taxes degenerate into an abyss.I think everybody would take the tax hit if we knew Ireland would be anything close to the likes of Finland,Denmark or Norway.(I'll leave Sweden out for the moment.)


    the biggest difference between the tax code in scandanavia and Ireland is that in places like sweeden , those earning less than 30 k pay at least a third of their income in tax , in Ireland people on lower income pay almost nothing by comparison , which is what annoys me when people like Vincent browne bang on about adopting a sweedish model , he wants the sweedish model but with those on lower incomes paying for nothing , in other words he doesn't want the sweedish model at all


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    #53
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    sugar_fiend wrote: »
    they are accommodated but you can only lead a horse to water

    Not totally. Many schools for example have rules which give preference to pupils whose families come from a given area, this precluding travellers from attending.

    I don't know enough about the subject but you would also need to ensure that there are no real or perceived barriers to transferring from one school to another.

    And while not an equality issue as such, but rather one of social inclusion and advancement, in order to see any progress in education amongst travellers, you may need to allocate certain additional resources within the school to enable children whose parents may not be literate to make up the gap that children with fully literate parents will have on them.


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    #54
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    jank wrote: »
    No it doesn't. Equality should mean that one is equal in the eyes of the law and end there.... However the progressive version of equality is "you have more stuff than me, to be equal the state should confiscate your stuff and give it to me" Liberty before equality first and foremost.

    That's not what I said. When I said they said they should be allowed pursue it on the same terms, I meant as a matter of law.

    So they law should not be set up in a way which permits one group to pursue economic, social or educational opportunities but precludes another from doing so.

    That is very different from capital redistribution.


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    #55
    sugar_fiend
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 22 ✭sugar_fiend


    floggg wrote: »
    Not totally. Many schools for example have rules which give preference to pupils whose families come from a given area, this precluding travellers from attending.

    I don't know enough about the subject but you would also need to ensure that there are no real or perceived barriers to transferring from one school to another.

    And while not an equality issue as such, but rather one of social inclusion and advancement, in order to see any progress in education amongst travellers, you may need to allocate certain additional resources within the school to enable children whose parents may not be literate to make up the gap that children with fully literate parents will have on them.


    their are no barriers to conventional education for any children including travellers , I don't see why the state should spend extra on so called " specific cultural needs " for people who follow an alternative lifestyle


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    #56
    Dostoevsky
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭Dostoevsky


    Henlars67 wrote: »
    The first gay marriages in Uruguay took place this week, cannabis will soon be available to purchase over the counter in pharmacies.

    Private consumption of all other drugs has never been illegal, though production and sale is.

    Added to this is the fact that religion has no influence at all on the state, and it is one of the most secular countries in the world.

    A shining example to the rest of the world.

    And the Uruguay President! Google him, socialist Michael D. Higgins! (interesting BBC article on his refusal to take any pay and live in a cottage among the poor)


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    #57
    floggg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭floggg


    sugar_fiend wrote: »
    their are no barriers to conventional education for any children including travellers , I don't see why the state should spend extra on so called " specific cultural needs " for people who follow an alternative lifestyle

    I just have you one example of a significant barrier to many travellers.

    The State allocates extra resources to various groups or areas for various reasons. Travellers are no different.

    And to the travellers, it's not an "alternative" lifestyle. It's the only lifestyle they know and a central part of their identity.

    But even if you don't care about any of that, can they ever really have any other lifestyle unless the state, through education, gives them the means to take a full part in modern Ireland.


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    #58
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    floggg wrote: »
    That's not what I said. When I said they said they should be allowed pursue it on the same terms, I meant as a matter of law.

    So they law should not be set up in a way which permits one group to pursue economic, social or educational opportunities but precludes another from doing so.

    That is very different from capital redistribution.

    Which 'group' is precluded from pursuing economic, social and educational opportunities as you put it?


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    #59
    Henlars67
    Registered Users Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭Henlars67


    There were a few travellers in my class when I was at school, but between being suspended/expelled for causing trouble and just not bothering to show up, none of them lasted too long, but they had the same chance as the rest of us.


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    #60
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    floggg wrote: »
    I just have you one example of a significant barrier to many travellers.

    The State allocates extra resources to various groups or areas for various reasons. Travellers are no different.

    And to the travellers, it's not an "alternative" lifestyle. It's the only lifestyle they know and a central part of their identity.

    But even if you don't care about any of that, can they ever really have any other lifestyle unless the state, through education, gives them the means to take a full part in modern Ireland.

    Ah, its not equality you want. What you want is legislation to be passed where by more rights and money be mandated and spent on certain minority groups because there is a perception of social injustice. Travellers can do what they like in my opinion, so long as they obey the law and respect private property. They should not be given extra rights.


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    #61
    Henlars67
    Registered Users Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭Henlars67


    jank wrote: »
    Ah, its not equality you want. What you want is legislation to be passed where by more rights and money be mandated and spent on certain minority groups because there is a perception of social injustice. Travellers can do what they like in my opinion, so long as they obey the law and respect private property. They should not be given extra rights.

    Agree with that, I'm all for equality. Giving a minority group extra rights is an affront to equality.


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