Going bald trying to decide what calibre !

vapour_trail

Lads Im going mad

Im itching to put a deposit down on a new foxer and I was pretty set on a .223 but Im very interested in the .22-250

Besides a kick in the arse to help me make my decision I need someone to "sell me" the calibre I need (give me pros and cons) I know the .223 is cheap to run and is more capable of busting foxes at any distance you can shoot accurately. But I see the .22-250 is like a laser which would be ideal for lamping, but does it have a short barrel life ?

Would love to hear peoples experience or opinions on the 250. Please dont throw any more calibres into the mix otherwise Im going to go completely insane

Thanks for any help !

yubabill1

If you want 22-250 - like trajectory out to about 300yds or so, shoot 40 gr 223 ammo.

223 barrel/throat will outlast 22-250.

New 22-250 ammo stretches the comparison, though.

dev110

One thing that is happening in this country is the shortage of ammo. I was looking at getting a .22-250 also but when I was talking to Dave Mulvihill and he was telling me about the amount of Hornady ammo coming in in the different calibres I've decided to change my mind back to a .223.

TriggerPL

vapour_trail wrote: »

Lads Im going mad

Im itching to put a deposit down on a new foxer and I was pretty set on a .223 but Im very interested in the .22-250

Besides a kick in the arse to help me make my decision I need someone to "sell me" the calibre I need (give me pros and cons) I know the .223 is cheap to run and is more capable of busting foxes at any distance you can shoot accurately. But I see the .22-250 is like a laser which would be ideal for lamping, but does it have a short barrel life ?

Would love to hear peoples experience or opinions on the 250. Please dont throw any more calibres into the mix otherwise Im going to go completely insane

Thanks for any help !

.243

vapour_trail

dev110 wrote: »

One thing that is happening in this country is the shortage of ammo. I was looking at getting a .22-250 also but when I was talking to Dave Mulvihill and he was telling me about the amount of Hornady ammo coming in in the different calibres I've decided to change my mind back to a .223.

Is there not still a bit of a demand for the 250? Ive seen a few different boxes on the shelf in my local RFD but I dont know anyone that owns one.

TriggerPL wrote: »

.243

In a perfect world yes but cant get one without a deer license.

TriggerPL

vapour_trail wrote: »

Is there not still a bit of a demand for the 250? Ive seen a few different boxes on the shelf in my local RFD but I dont know anyone that owns one.


In a perfect world yes but cant get one without a deer license.

I'd have a swift

dev110

The 250 never really took off as well as the .223 here because it fell into a varmint/deer rifle. Some Supers will license one for vermin but others want you to have a deer license to have one.
It really should be a varmint rifle and not a deer calibre.

I was told that there isn't that much .243 coming in also. The only calibres that you are really safe with if the shortage gets worse is a .223 and .308

insignia33

dev110 wrote: »

One thing that is happening in this country is the shortage of ammo. I was looking at getting a .22-250 also but when I was talking to Dave Mulvihill and he was telling me about the amount of Hornady ammo coming in in the different calibres I've decided to change my mind back to a .223.

Ammo shortage is only temporary. In 3 or 4 years time we'll look back and laugh. I wouldnt let it be a deciding factor on what caliber I go for.

22-250 can be licensed for deer too. So thats always nice.

ormondprop

Don't forget the .204

dev110

insignia33 wrote: »

Ammo shortage is only temporary. In 3 or 4 years time we'll look back and laugh. I wouldnt let it be a deciding factor on what caliber I go for.

22-250 can be licensed for deer too. So thats always nice.

I would let an ammo shortage decide what calibre to choose. Hornady have suspended the 40gr and 50gr V-Max ammo for the .22-250. They say it is temporary after a review but what happens if they review again and see there isn't enough of a demand?

Sure there are other manufacturers but what happens if they follow the same trend?

insignia33

dev110 wrote: »

I would let an ammo shortage decide what calibre to choose. Hornady have suspended the 40gr and 50gr V-Max ammo for the .22-250. They say it is temporary after a review but what happens if they review again and see there isn't enough of a demand?

Sure there are other manufacturers but what happens if they follow the same trend?

Thats a lot of ifs and maybes.

I would actually eat my hat if this ammo shortage is the death knell for the 22-250 and 243 like you seem to be saying. They are too popular of a round to go under just like that. They wont go under.

And **if** for some reason all the major manufacturers did stop making 243 and 22-250 you can bet your last euro people with reloading kits would get to work and cash in on it.

dev110

Do you know for certain that the ammo shortage won't continue?

Also since reloading is currently illegal in Ireland, except for the pilot scheme in the Midlands, them people you are talking about with the reloading kits would be quiet foolish to start making ammo for people.

insignia33

dev110 wrote: »

Do you know for certain that the ammo shortage won't continue?

Also since reloading is currently illegal in Ireland, except for the pilot scheme in the Midlands, them people you are talking about with the reloading kits would be quiet foolish to start making ammo for people.

Yep. Its not a case of "if" its a case of "when" this shortage will sort itself out.

I wasnt actually referring to Irish reloaders. I was thinking more of a few entrepreneur types in the USA/UK/Germany (maybe even Northern Ireland) etc now suddenly seeing a worldwide market they can cash in on.

vapour_trail

TriggerPL wrote: »

I'd have a swift

Too expensive , not interested

ormondprop wrote: »

Don't forget the .204

Nah would rather a .223





Has the ammo shortage hit our shores yet though? or will it even? I havent seen a decrease of ammo on the shelves and since we dont import as much ammo, will it even affect us?

customrifle

Have 22-250 and swift and brother has 223. Both mine are remy vssf ii but the 250 now wears a bull border barrel and sits in a aics. If im lamping i bring the swift as it lighter and if im calling them in on the hills i set up with 250 and can knock them 3-450 yards all round. The swift and 250 are point and shoot out to 300 yards and the 223 we just dial in on the scope. When lamping at night most shots are under 200 yards so 223 does the job aswell as the flatter calibres. The cost of premium ammo is minimal between them all.
As for barrel life the average shooter wont shoot out a 250 barrel. You ll get 2-3000 of sub moa accuracy from most barrels. My 250 was built 3 years ago and still has less than 400 rounds through it. Like any new toy you ll put few through it at start but then you ll settle down with it.
I like all three calibres but there is something about the swift. Its just a great round. Accurate, flat and it turns charlie inside out. And you can pick up clean second hand rifle cheap. If cost was a factor the 223 is marginally cheaper and you can get plinking ammo for it. In saying that you can get federal 55gr soft points for 25 a box for 250. Good luck with your decision

FISMA

I would go with the 223 based upon the cost of ammo and different mass bullets.

Are you a good shooter? Will your shooting be able to realize some of the slight advantages of the 22-250 over the 223?

Again, I would go with the 223, but here are some of my pro's and con's.

223
+1 Cheaper Ammo
+1 More bullet variety
+1 don't have to worry about fast follow up shots overheating barrel


22-250
+1 shoots farther
+1 shoots faster
+1 shoots flatter
+1 gets the edge on energy

-1 burns barrels

vapour_trail

FISMA wrote: »

I would go with the 223 based upon the cost of ammo and different mass bullets.

Are you a good shooter? Will your shooting be able to realize some of the slight advantages of the 22-250 over the 223?

Again, I would go with the 223, but here are some of my pro's and con's.

223
+1 Cheaper Ammo
+1 More bullet variety
+1 don't have to worry about fast follow up shots overheating barrel


22-250
+1 shoots farther
+1 shoots faster
+1 shoots flatter
+1 gets the edge on energy

-1 burns barrels

Out my way we have problems with lads going lamping and firing at foxes when theyre 200 or 300 yards away. Even lads missing foxes 100 or 150 yards . This is causing more and more sitters and its now rare to have a fox come within 180 or so yards. I suppose it looks like the .223 is the more sensible choice. Thanks a lot for the reply !

Tommy87

I've had both and I would choose the 22-250 every time. The 22-250 can do everything the 223 can do and do it better, but the 223 can't do everything the 22-250 can do. The 223 has only 1 advantage. the price of ammo. That's it. The 22-250, as well as having a farther reach will have more power at point of impact, and that can be the difference between finding the fox or not finding the fox.

People will say it will burn out the barrel faster. I only use 50+grain bullets, I think they are 3700 fps. I stay away from the 40 grains, they are over 4000fps. Like someone said there, the barrel life is 2000+ rounds. That's surely 10+ years good shooting.

Another thing is if you want to shoot deer in the future you can get a deer hunting licence with it, and to be fair it's more that capable of taking deer here.

My opinions anyway!

Tommy

.243

ormondprop wrote: »

Don't forget the .204

I agree,if your a dedicated full time foxer and itll bring you closer to the 250 area without havin to go to the larger rounds
If it occasional foxing and plinkin go for the .223

vapour_trail

Some great points there Tommy. The only thing that is really worrying me is the barrel burning storys. If Im spending a good chunk of money on a set up , I want it to last a long time and be reliable. I dont want to be counting every bullet that goes through it and be paranoid over it losing accuracy. What would the life of a barrel be if you were shooting the heavier bullets and a lower velocity?
Say if you were firing the 55 or 60 grain?

customrifle

The only thing that burns out the 250 and swift barrels quickly is the pairie dog shoots the yanks have where they fire over 100 rounds in one sitting and the barrel gets so hot you could fry an egg on it. If you are just lamping with it then that barrel will last you years.
Its the same with the 6.5 x 284. That is called a barrel burner because the f class lads are changing barrels every thousand rounds but again thatd because they are shooting strings of 20 and the barrels are getting very hot.

Cass

insignia33 wrote: »

22-250 can be licensed for deer too. So thats always nice.

As dev110 said some Supers will only license one for deer so if the OP has no deer, or not interested in it then he may not get a license.

insignia33 wrote: »

And **if** for some reason all the major manufacturers did stop making 243 and 22-250 you can bet your last euro people with reloading kits would get to work and cash in on it.

insignia33 wrote: »

I wasnt actually referring to Irish reloaders. I was thinking more of a few entrepreneur types in the USA/UK/Germany (maybe even Northern Ireland) etc now suddenly seeing a worldwide market they can cash in on.

The two above statements are rubbish. Any ammo coming into this country must be CIP proofed. Meaning some fella with a press and extra powder cannot make ammo, and simply ship it here to be sold. It's illegal, and an import license will never be granted for ammo that is not proofed. Plus when he makes a mistake in his load and someone looses a eye, or head where is the dealer that sold it to you then?

If you are suggesting they will do it without importing or by some illegal means then don't bother posting further. Talk like that does nothing but add fuel to the fire, and cause unnecessary alarm in the minds of the PTB. Plus it's illegal and such talk is not permitted.

So lets get back on the Op's topic and away from reloading in any form.

sikahuntejack

I had a howa 223 and a sako heavy barrel 22.250 killed foxs with both if i were you and you wanted a gun for foxs the 223 is enough to do the job cheap ammo and will kill out to savage distances if you have a good scope on it 300 yards no problem

cookimonster

vapour_trail wrote: »

In a perfect world yes but cant get one without a deer license.

Wrong!....... Search through this forum and you will see there are plenty of folks who have em with out deer license, including me.

I originaly was looking for a 22-250 but was shown the errors of my ways......never looked back with the .243

vapour_trail

cookimonster wrote: »

Wrong!....... Search through this forum and you will see there are plenty of folks who have em with out deer license, including me.

I originaly was looking for a 22-250 but was shown the errors of my ways......never looked back with the .243

But without a deer license or being a member of a target club I cant be granted a license for a .243, unless I take it to court or something ?? Its not worth that. In fact I was probably punching above my weight taking an interest in the .22-250 because I know lads that have had to wade through some amount of sh1t to get a .223 due to our Super.

Cass

Almost as many as were refused them without a deer license. It's district specific.:rolleyes:

silverfox1

I've had both. The 22 250 is by far the better round. The price of ammo is not much different when your using premium ammo. So my vote is the 250. You won't regret it.

zeissman

vapour_trail wrote: »

Some great points there Tommy. The only thing that is really worrying me is the barrel burning storys. If Im spending a good chunk of money on a set up , I want it to last a long time and be reliable. I dont want to be counting every bullet that goes through it and be paranoid over it losing accuracy. What would the life of a barrel be if you were shooting the heavier bullets and a lower velocity?
Say if you were firing the 55 or 60 grain?

Your 22-250 barrel will last a long time if your only using it for hunting.
I had a swift for about 10 years and shot a lot of foxes with it and never seen any loss of accuracy in that time.
Over heating the barrel by firing lots of shots in succession will shorten barrel life.
Some guys shoot heavy 75 and 80 grain bullets out of fast twist 22-250 rifles and these bullets will wear out the throat of a rifle a lot quicker than the lighter bullets that you will be using.
If you think you need the flatter trajectory of the 22-250 over the 223 you should go for it.
I now shoot a 204 which I think gives me the best qualities of the 223 and 22-250.

insignia33

Cass wrote: »

As dev110 said some Supers will only license one for deer so if the OP has no deer, or not interested in it then he may not get a license.





The two above statements are rubbish. Any ammo coming into this country must be CIP proofed. Meaning some fella with a press and extra powder cannot make ammo, and simply ship it here to be sold. It's illegal, and an import license will never be granted for ammo that is not proofed. Plus when he makes a mistake in his load and someone looses a eye, or head where is the dealer that sold it to you then?

If you are suggesting they will do it without importing or by some illegal means then don't bother posting further. Talk like that does nothing but add fuel to the fire, and cause unnecessary alarm in the minds of the PTB. Plus it's illegal and such talk is not permitted.

So lets get back on the Op's topic and away from reloading in any form.

I just want to clarify something here. When I said entrepreneurs setting up shop I meant it would be fully legit. As in they would register business name, pay taxes, meet whatever regulations. I am not talking about a guy in the US reloading for an hour every night in his shed and then selling on ebay. Im not talking about someone in Ireland doing it illegally. I am talking about a person or persons getting together, making a business/corporation and supplying to the huge worldwide market because every other manufacturer decides theres no demand for 243 and 22-250 and stop producing.

meathstevie

It's a simple fact of life that every round in no matter what caliber generates friction and as such heat that has an effect on a gun barrel. Not only that, you only need to watch a couple of slow motion shooting videos to see that rifle barrels are far from rigid as well.

It's also a simple fact of life that a good quality rifle is capable of achieving levels of accuracy out of the box and for thousands upon thousands of rounds after when properly maintained that most shooters are not able of consistently achieving in the field.

If you don't want your barrel to wear out prematurely simply don't fire large quantities of ammo through it without giving it a chance to cool down and any decent hunting rifle in a .22 center fire caliber should give you a lifetime of accurate shooting.

cookimonster

Cass wrote: »

Almost as many as were refused them without a deer license. It's district specific.:rolleyes:

In fairness Cass this is true...... but for my last few firearm purchases I have done the leg work before approaching the dealers and chatted with the local firearms officer to see the ly of the land. It's worth it and you can use this information for your next course of action.

ormondprop

cookimonster wrote: »

In fairness Cass this is true...... but for my last few firearm purchases I have done the leg work before approaching the dealers and chatted with the local firearms officer to see the ly of the land. It's worth it and you can use this information for your next course of action.

Its worth a shot alright but make sure you know how your local station polices it, when i sold my .223 i was told i could get a .22-250 but not a .243 without a deer license, was going to get a .22-250 and later apply for a deer license with it and then upgrade to something bigger when i got around to stalking deer but bought a .204 instead, as i couldn't find a nice .22-250 around as most dealers around don't stock new ones, as most stations make you get a deer license for it and if your getting a deer license why undergun yourself with a .22-250 when you could get a .270 or any other better deer rifle

yubabill1

223 barrel could last up to 30,000 rounds. One of the many reasons I bought one.

That and the cheaper ammo.

Any 223 expanding ammo will stop any fox. Make sure to place the shot best you can, of course.

You can use cheaper FMJ's for rabbits without meat damage.

It's a jack-of-all-trades.

In the end, you can listen to us ad nauseum, but you will know deep down what you want IMHO.

vapour_trail

Thanks to everyone for the info. Was talking to a lad in the gun club this afternoon and hes put in for a .223 two weeks ago. He got a call last week from the super who was saying he wasnt comfortable granting a military calibre just for foxes. He has to go for some sort of interview during the week Sounds like Im in for a fun time in the next few weeks lads , a fun time indeed :P

yubabill1

vapour_trail wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for the info. Was talking to a lad in the gun club this afternoon and hes put in for a .223 two weeks ago. He got a call last week from the super who was saying he wasnt comfortable granting a military calibre just for foxes. He has to go for some sort of interview during the week Sounds like Im in for a fun time in the next few weeks lads , a fun time indeed :P

There are very few rounds that are not military calibre somewhere, or have been derived from military research.

I can't think of even one, offhand.

tomcat220t

yubabill1 wrote: »

223 barrel could last up to 30,000 rounds. One of the many reasons I bought one.

That and the cheaper ammo.

Any 223 expanding ammo will stop any fox. Make sure to place the shot best you can, of course.

You can use cheaper FMJ's for rabbits without meat damage.

It's a jack-of-all-trades.

In the end, you can listen to us ad nauseum, but you will know deep down what you want IMHO.

Hi yubabill, do you mind me asking where you got the info about a .223 could last up 30,000 rounds ?Sound a lot of round ,imo .
Not saying your making it up ...just interested .
Regards ,Tomcat.

tomcat220t

vapour_trail wrote: »

Thanks to everyone for the info. Was talking to a lad in the gun club this afternoon and hes put in for a .223 two weeks ago. He got a call last week from the super who was saying he wasnt comfortable granting a military calibre just for foxes. He has to go for some sort of interview during the week Sounds like Im in for a fun time in the next few weeks lads , a fun time indeed :P

Hi vapour ,the .223 REM is not a military caliber .......5.56X45 NATO is a military caliber !
Regards ,Tomcat.

vapour_trail

tomcat220t wrote: »

Hi vapour ,the .223 REM is not a military caliber .......5.56X45 NATO is a military caliber !
Regards ,Tomcat.

You, me and lads that are educated in the sport know this. The lad who decides who does and who doesnt get granted, does not... Doesnt make sense does it?

tomcat220t

vapour_trail wrote: »

You, me and lads that are educated in the sport know this. The lad who decides who does and who doesnt get granted, does not... Doesnt make sense does it?

Hi vapour,while i agree with you ...the guys who grants or not the licences shouldnt ignore the facts on calibers .
I wish you the best and if its a .223 REM your applying for you should stand your ground ,imo.
Regards,Tomcat.

cookimonster

The Garda Commissioner's Guidelines as to the Practical Application & Operation of Firearms Act, 1925 - 2009 - as amended 22/10/09 - Garda.ie

Give this a browse, there's a section on page 31 (?) that outlines recommended calibers for various quarry.

Know what's what......fore warned is fore armed (sorry for pune).

yubabill1

tomcat220t wrote: »

Hi yubabill, do you mind me asking where you got the info about a .223 could last up 30,000 rounds ?Sound a lot of round ,imo .
Not saying your making it up ...just interested .
Regards ,Tomcat.

couple of guys who've done it (not in roi)

Tommy87

yubabill1 wrote: »

It's a jack-of-all-trades.

Jack of all trades......... Master of none!!

zeissman

I dont think any standard 223 barrel would last for 30,000 rounds.
I think about 5,000 rounds would be a more realistic figure before groups would open up.
I have read about 308 barrels lasting for 10,000 rounds and also about guys having to rebarrel them after as little as 1200 rounds.
I wouldnt worry about it, a barrel will last a long time with the kind of hunting we do here.

yubabill1

zeissman wrote: »

I dont think any standard 223 barrel would last for 30,000 rounds.
I think about 5,000 rounds would be a more realistic figure before groups would open up.
I have read about 308 barrels lasting for 10,000 rounds and also about guys having to rebarrel them after as little as 1200 rounds.
I wouldnt worry about it, a barrel will last a long time with the kind of hunting we do here.

Didn't say anything about groups, but you are right, if you want to punch paper you will need a new barrel sooner.

Throat erosion is minimal in the 223, but like any barrel, if you heat it up it will wear more quickly.

I wouldn't imagine a 223 barrel with 30,000 rounds through it would be too accurate but it would suit fox hunting at 100yds or under.

By the time I put 30,000 through my 223, I'll be happy if I can hit a fox at any range ;-)

meathstevie

If you can manage to shoot slower than an MG42 or a Minimi you'll get a lifetime of hunting out of your rifle

PL05

Had a .22/250 for many years, in fact i only changed to 243 this year. Can,t comment on 223 cause never owned or used one but can tell you about 250. With regards to accuracy and nice flat trajectory, you cant go wrong. However there,s a bit of an over kill with them when round hits bone, which is one of the reasons i changed. Was shooting with a friend years back when he shot a fox with a 250 at about 100yds square in chest and i **** you not it was like the fox stepped on a land mine, he literally exploded. Have shot quite a few deer with one myself and always a lot of damage on exit when shot in chest, certainly not the case when i neck shot them, like flicking a switch, instant. Anyway if a 223 is up to the job you want it for then i,d go with it, i,d say ammo is cheaper than 250 also. The last time i bought 250 ammo i paid 38euro a box of 55gr. So what ever you decide good luck.

PL05

ormondprop wrote: »

Its worth a shot alright but make sure you know how your local station polices it, when i sold my .223 i was told i could get a .22-250 but not a .243 without a deer license, was going to get a .22-250 and later apply for a deer license with it and then upgrade to something bigger when i got around to stalking deer but bought a .204 instead, as i couldn't find a nice .22-250 around as most dealers around don't stock new ones, as most stations make you get a deer license for it and if your getting a deer license why undergun yourself with a .22-250 when you could get a .270 or any other better deer rifle

Be careful with that route. As you probably already know there,s pressure on to change the minimum legal caliber for deer hunting which at the moment is .22/250 to .240 or higher, although this is only a recommendation at the moment by various groups/bodies including coillte i,ve a feeling it will come in eventually. A few years back i had a deer license refused on grounds that .22/250 was not acceptable for reasons to do with muzzle energy etc, I rang the NPWS the next day and quickly pointed out that it stated on the application and on their web site that the legal calibre was .22/250, i got the license a few days later. The following year it was refused on grounds that 55gr bullets where not acceptable for deer hunting, so again i rang and pointed out that .22/250 using bullets not less than 55gr was clearly stated on application. The person asked me would i be prepared to use a heavier grain bullet say 65gr [his words], i agreed and had license in post a few days later. So you can see where im going with this and this is another reason why i changed calibre.

Cass

The NPWS can only enforce the law which does not mention 22/250 regardless of what is on the application. It says centre-fire rifle with bullet of not less than .22 cal & 55gr, producing 1,700ft/lb.

The reason they say 22/250 is because (in Ireland at least) that is the lowest caliber rifle with that bullet combo that produces sufficient energy to be deer legal.

The .220 Swift will also meet the criteria, but the .223 will not. While they are all 5.7mm bullets (swift, .223 & 22/250) the case (as in chambering) does not allow the lower cal such as .223 to reach the necessary energy. Probably saying that arse-ways but ya get the idea. Bullet size is not as important as chambering.

sikahuntejack

I shot all my deer last years with a 22.250 hate listening to bull**** lads saying you should not shoot deer with a 22.250 i neck shot all my deer from 70 yards to 200 yards all dropped on the spot its a savage gun , i upgraded this year to a 308 because i got permission for red deer but would have no problem going back to the 22.250 if i got rid of the 308

PL05

sikahuntejack wrote: »

I shot all my deer last years with a 22.250 hate listening to bull**** lads saying you should not shoot deer with a 22.250 i neck shot all my deer from 70 yards to 200 yards all dropped on the spot its a savage gun , i upgraded this year to a 308 because i got permission for red deer but would have no problem going back to the 22.250 if i got rid of the 308

Might be mistaken here but by lads bull****ing, i take it you mean the powers that be because i dont recall telling anyone they should,nt shoot deer with a .22/250. I just gave my opinion on caliber to chap that posted this thread, if i could have kept my 250 i would have because your right they are a savage gun. But i,ll stand by what i said, there is a bit of an overkill with them. [in my opinion] that is.

vapour_trail

Still cant decide between the .223 and .22-250 Great bit of info from everyone but Im still in the same pickle as before !