Give Gardai credit card machines

MadsL

In my view, it is time Gardai were empowered to levy on the spot fines with credit card facilities to deal with anti-social behaviour.

Pissing in the street = €125 Sir, and here is your bucket and mop to clean it up.
Vomiting in the street = €125 Ma'am. Visa will do nicely.
Aggressive anti-social conduct in public = €190 or a night in the cells, your choice.

JohnDee

and they get to carry the devices around in a holster slung around the hip

downonthefarm

half wouldnt know how to work them,well the culchie ones anyways

hfallada

They probably will want a price increase for it so no.

MadsL

JohnDee wrote: »

and they get to carry the devices around in a holster slung around the hip

Breast pocket more like:

http://www.intomobile.com/2011/04/19/square-credit-card-reader-iphone-now-available-apple-store/

paulmclaughlin

Less chance the money could go missing I suppose.

MadsL

hfallada wrote: »

They probably will want a price increase for it so no.

Fines would cover that wouldn't they?

I am pie

1. Fair enough
2. What if the person is genuinely sick?
3. How will they make that decision on the spot? What if someone is attacked and the Gardai arrived to see them defend themselves. Will they have an on the spot kangaroo court with whatever witnesses they can round up?

Gardai as judge and jury is an populist awful idea, simplistic lowest common denominator stuff which doesnt allow for context. Why did the offence happen?

I doubt the police would be overly keen in being appointed judge and jury, and would probably prefer to remain on the side of arresting suspects and crime prevention.

Gran Hermano

It would likely lead to another blue flu with those chaps in blue demanding a pay rise for having to use new technology.

MadsL

I am pie wrote: »

1. Fair enough
2. What if the person is genuinely sick?
3. How will they make that decision on the spot? What if someone is attacked and the Gardai arrived to see them defend themselves. Will they have an on the spot kangaroo court with whatever witnesses they can round up?

Gardai as judge and jury is an populist awful idea, simplistic lowest common denominator stuff which doesnt allow for context. Why did the offence happen?

I doubt the police would be overly keen in being appointed judge and jury, and would probably prefer to remain on the side of arresting suspects and crime prevention.

You can have the option of your day in court by refusing the fine and getting arrested, just as you can for a traffic offence.

Pissing in public can't really have much of a defence now can it?

As to being genuinely ill, what do you suppose the chances are that you suddenly got ill at 3am in Temple Bar and it wasn't drink related...? A quick sniff of the vomit would tell you it was booze.

Conmaicne Mara

After the dealings I've had with them over the past few years I wouldn't give them the fúcking time of day.

downonthefarm

what do we give to a group already on a power trip?more power.................

hatrickpatrick

MadsL wrote: »

Pissing in the street = €125 Sir, and here is your bucket and mop to clean it up.

Completely oppose all bans on pissing in public until and unless we get some 24 hour public toilets in Dublin City. Can't have it both ways.

Weevil

These powers would probably require six months extra training in Templemore and a technology allowance.

MadsL

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Completely oppose all bans on pissing in public until and unless we get some 24 hour public toilets in Dublin City. Can't have it both ways.

True dat.

I actually just read an interesting article which changes my view somewhat...

http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/josie-appleton/pavement-injustice-tyranny-of-on-spot-fines

A pilot study found that many penalty notices for disorder were being issued for offences which would not have reached a court. One study found that only between a quarter and a half of PNDs went to offenders who would otherwise have been cautioned or prosecuted, suggesting that at least half would not.

No Pants

Give card machines so that they can use them to fine people who probably don't have cards...

sdanseo

Good idea - make it a reduced rate for paying on the spot.

For example:

€75 if you pay on the spot.
€100 if you pay within 28 days.
€125 if you pay within 56 days.
€250 if convicted and fined.

hatrickpatrick

sdeire wrote: »

Good idea - make it a reduced rate for paying on the spot.

For example:

€75 if you pay on the spot.
€100 if you pay within 28 days.
€125 if you pay within 56 days.
€250 if convicted and fined.

Have to say I've always disagreed with higher fines for losing in court. It discourages people who might have a legitimate case from standing up for themselves. If the potential loss is higher from fighting your case, most people will settle even when they know they shouldn't. That's messed up.

sdanseo

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Have to say I've always disagreed with higher fines for losing in court. It discourages people who might have a legitimate case from standing up for themselves. If the potential loss is higher from fighting your case, most people will settle even when they know they shouldn't. That's messed up.

I agree, but that's a separate issue entirely. I was basing my post on the existing structure (+100% if convicted) with a slight adjustment to the increase in amount if you pay within 56 days rather than 28 (+33% instead of +50%).

RichT

MadsL wrote: »

Aggressive anti-social conduct in public = €190 or a night in the cells, your choice.

I'll have a night in the en-suite with a full Irish in the morning please!

hatrickpatrick

MadsL wrote: »

Pissing in public can't really have much of a defence now can it?

Yes actually it can. Walking home from a night out from the city centre to Sandycove, 'bout a one and a half to two hour walk if you step on it. Not a single public toilet between town and Sandycove so I took a piss against a wall in Blackrock. If I'd been caught I'd happily have gone to court to argue my case:

Not my fault in the slightest if our government(s) aren't bothered to provide the most basic public facilities. We must be the only capital city in Europe in which it's impossible to take a piss anywhere after 4AM when all the clubs have closed. Ridiculous.
I fully support anyone who pisses in public until and unless this is addressed.

ted1

MadsL wrote: »

In my view, it is time Gardai were empowered to levy on the spot fines with credit card facilities to deal with anti-social behaviour.

Pissing in the street = €125 Sir, and here is your bucket and mop to clean it up.
Vomiting in the street = €125 Ma'am. Visa will do nicely.
Aggressive anti-social conduct in public = €190 or a night in the cells, your choice.

Collecting fines is outside of their remit

Mr Whirly

MadsL wrote: »

Pissing in public can't really have much of a defence now can it?

If there was any public toilets provided there would be no defence. Not nice but if you're piseed if you gotta go you gotta go.

I am pie

MadsL wrote: »

You can have the option of your day in court by refusing the fine and getting arrested, just as you can for a traffic offence.

Pissing in public can't really have much of a defence now can it?

As to being genuinely ill, what do you suppose the chances are that you suddenly got ill at 3am in Temple Bar and it wasn't drink related...? A quick sniff of the vomit would tell you it was booze.

I´ll direct you back to "1. Fair Enough" I haven't defended that.

Perhaps someone went out, wasn't feeling great and had a few drinks and got sick. Perhaps they over ate, had a few pints and it made them sick. Minority cases yes, but hardly worth a fine. A sniff of booze is not giulty beyond reasonable doubt.

I think you would fine almost everyone will elect to have their day in an already over congested court system so no one will win there, except for the lawyers. I guarantee you that turning up with a written apology, a donation to someone and a word with the seargeant would get your case struck off very quickly

The investment in technology, the detrimental effect on an over congested court system and the widespread opportunities for unjust sentencing and abuse make this a non runner. Populist nonsense.

These daft knee jerk solutions all mask the unwillingness to attempt to actually deal with the root cause of these and many other public order offences, people drinking until they have lost control. Fines which you can put on the long finger by contesting them in court will definitely not solve that problem.

Rasheed

downonthefarm wrote: »

half wouldnt know how to work them,well the culchie ones anyways

Yup, our culchie currency is turf and spuds, none of that fandangled technology.

OP I think it's a great idea. Few glitches would need to be ironed out but still a great idea.

MadsL

I am pie wrote: »

I´ll direct you back to "1. Fair Enough" I haven't defended that.

Perhaps someone went out, wasn't feeling great and had a few drinks and got sick. Perhaps they over ate, had a few pints and it made them sick. Minority cases yes, but hardly worth a fine. A sniff of booze is not giulty beyond reasonable doubt.

I think you would fine almost everyone will elect to have their day in an already over congested court system so no one will win there, except for the lawyers. I guarantee you that turning up with a written apology, a donation to someone and a word with the seargeant would get your case struck off very quickly

The investment in technology, the detrimental effect on an over congested court system and the widespread opportunities for unjust sentencing and abuse make this a non runner. Populist nonsense.

These daft knee jerk solutions all mask the unwillingness to attempt to actually deal with the root cause of these and many other public order offences, people drinking until they have lost control. Fines which you can put on the long finger by contesting them in court will definitely not solve that problem.

What is your solution for that? Not saying you are wrong, but certain areas of Dublin are piss smelling vomit holes on a Sun morning.

Toilets are one solution, but even with Dublin supplying temporary toilets in these areas is seems somehow socially acceptable to piss in public up against any wall, even if people live there.

Mr Whirly

MadsL wrote: »

What is your solution for that? Not saying you are wrong, but certain areas of Dublin are piss smelling vomit holes on a Sun morning.

Toilets are one solution, but even with Dublin supplying temporary toilets in these areas is seems somehow socially acceptable to piss in public up against any wall, even if people live there.

I have never seen a public toilet in Dublin.

Mike 1972

Mr Whirly wrote: »

I have never seen a public toilet in Dublin.

About thirty years ago Local authorties across Ireland closed down public toilets in an attempt to eradicate homosexuality ?

AndonHandon

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Have to say I've always disagreed with higher fines for losing in court. It discourages people who might have a legitimate case from standing up for themselves. If the potential loss is higher from fighting your case, most people will settle even when they know they shouldn't. That's messed up.

An absolute no to this, for the following reason;

if you have a legitimate case then you won't have to pay a fine. The threat of a higher fine is to deter those chancing their arm. If it was a lower fine then who would bother paying an on-the-spot fine? You could just refuse to pay, get taken to court, represent yourself and then will be left with a lower fine then what was issued on-the-spot.

keith16

Gran Hermano wrote: »

It would likely lead to another blue flu with those chaps in blue demanding a pay rise for having to use new technology.

Actually, that's a very cheap shot considering a "blue flu" is rarely called.

Expect better from you tbh.

hatrickpatrick

AndonHandon wrote: »

An absolute no to this, for the following reason;

if you have a legitimate case then you won't have to pay a fine. The threat of a higher fine is to deter those chancing their arm. If it was a lower fine then who would bother paying an on-the-spot fine? You could just refuse to pay, get taken to court, represent yourself and then will be left with a lower fine then what was issued on-the-spot.

I never said lower, I said the same.
I got fined for having no DART ticket last year after the vending machine repeatedly refused the coins I was putting in and I was late for my bus to Electric Picnic, had there not been the threat of a criminal conviction and a much higher fine I definitely would have gone to court as the fine was utterly unreasonable. Deterring people from going to court even when they have a very valid case is ridiculous.

Sir Humphrey Appleby

MadsL wrote: »

In my view, it is time Gardai were empowered to levy on the spot fines with credit card facilities to deal with anti-social behaviour.

Pissing in the street = €125 Sir, and here is your bucket and mop to clean it up.
Vomiting in the street = €125 Ma'am. Visa will do nicely.
Aggressive anti-social conduct in public = €190 or a night in the cells, your choice.

Nice idea , but wholly unconstitutional in this state AFAIK.

AndonHandon

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I never said lower, I said the same.
I got fined for having no DART ticket last year after the vending machine repeatedly refused the coins I was putting in and I was late for my bus to Electric Picnic, had there not been the threat of a criminal conviction and a much higher fine I definitely would have gone to court as the fine was utterly unreasonable. Deterring people from going to court even when they have a very valid case is ridiculous.

Well, someone like you won't be faced with the prospect of a criminal conviction if that is the reason you were fined. But a seasoned petty criminal will not bother paying an on-the-spot fine as they will be aware that most of those don't make it to court.

It is not a crime of absolute liability, i.e. you have to prove your innocence, being caught without a ticket.

Capt'n Midnight

Just give them NFC readers, it would be up to you to prove that you didn't provide consent to the €15 deducted from you

hatrickpatrick

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Not my fault in the slightest if our government(s) aren't bothered to provide the most basic public facilities.

Ridiculous.

Yes, ridiculous to expect a grown adult to hold it for an hour. As a handy bit of advice: if you're not good at holding it, go before you leave the club.

In addition, I've heard a legend that if you have a penis it's possible to tie a piece of string around it and it should hold it in for you!

goose2005

sdeire wrote: »

Good idea - make it a reduced rate for paying on the spot.

For example:

€75 if you pay on the spot.
€100 if you pay within 28 days.
€125 if you pay within 56 days.
€250 if convicted and fined.

So, basically, punishing people for being poor. Not everyone can ask Mammy for a dig out.

Captain Chaos

goose2005 wrote: »

So, basically, punishing people for being poor. Not everyone can ask Mammy for a dig out.

Or just don't act the maggot in the first place.

goose2005

true-or-false wrote: »

Yes, ridiculous to expect a grown adult to hold it for an hour. As a handy bit of advice: if you're not good at holding it, go before you leave the club.

It is ridiculous to send ~5,000 grown adults home from various clubs at 2 a.m., most of them having drunk a lot, and provide no public toilets, and then act surprised when the streets are covered in urine.

Elbaston

MadsL wrote: »

In my view, it is time Gardai were empowered to levy on the spot fines with credit card facilities to deal with anti-social behaviour.

Pissing in the street = €125 Sir, and here is your bucket and mop to clean it up.
Vomiting in the street = €125 Ma'am. Visa will do nicely.
Aggressive anti-social conduct in public = €190 or a night in the cells, your choice.

dear god we're in aagreement.

limited to high density areas and town centres though.

sdanseo

goose2005 wrote: »

So, basically, punishing people for being poor. Not everyone can ask Mammy for a dig out.

Not at all. It's a discount for saving the time and hassle, not to mind postage, of having to send out forms. I got 2 points and an €80 fine a couple of years ago, and between all the different stakeholders' time to process the whole thing (I received 4 or 5 letters from the Gardaí, RSA etc.) it probably cost half that to get the things applied to my licence.

Mike 1972

true-or-false wrote: »

Yes, ridiculous to expect a grown adult to hold it for an hour. u!

Not everyone is blessed with strong bladder control muscles you know

B.A._Baracus

Gardai carrying credit card machines? what will you think of next MadsL :pac:

Apart from it being a crazy idea, but lets just say it happened, I see one tiny, teeny little problem with your idea .... and that's "Sorry, Guard. I don't have a credit card"

snubbleste

I'll let ye off if you sponsor me running in a marathon

Garda is alleged to have suggested to motorists that their offences would be quietly dropped if they made donations to a charity nominated by him.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-at-centre-of-probe-over-charity-deals-to-motorists-28894703.html

No Pants

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

"Sorry, Guard. I don't have a credit card"

Even if you do, just enter the wrong PIN three times.

keithclancy

goose2005 wrote: »

It is ridiculous to send ~5,000 grown adults home from various clubs at 2 a.m., most of them having drunk a lot, and provide no public toilets, and then act surprised when the streets are covered in urine.

Dey were eurinatin all over the place Joe.

In fairness though, you have it fairly easy in Ireland, with offences rarely ever being enforced.

Mike 1972

keithclancy wrote: »

In fairness though, you have it fairly easy in Ireland, with offences rarely ever being enforced.

There are parts of the world where if one does it within 300 metres of a school (even at night during the summer holiday) they are classed as sex offenders FFS

conorhal

I'd agree, why go through the pointless expense of a prosicution? That takes up court time, the arresting Guard is off the streets because they have to turn up as a witness and of course there's the expense of having solicitors involved......

On the spot fines are a quick efficient means of dealing with trivial infractions of the law and the ability to demand on the spot payment or the doubling of a fine if it goes to court ensures that you don't have to put up with messers.

I'd also be in favour of bringing back the drunk tank, if you're drunk and disorderly, abusing people and pissing in the street, it's a night in the drunk tank for you. You get 5 mins in front of a night court and 12x6 cell with a wooden pallet and a blanket and a toilet, oh, and a 90 euro fine for your bed and breakfast in the morning.
Again this would avoid the overly bureaucratic requirements for dealing quickly and efficently with public order offences.

Sh1tbag OToole

MadsL wrote: »

You can have the option of your day in court by refusing the fine and getting arrested, just as you can for a traffic offence.

Pissing in public can't really have much of a defence now can it?

As to being genuinely ill, what do you suppose the chances are that you suddenly got ill at 3am in Temple Bar and it wasn't drink related...? A quick sniff of the vomit would tell you it was booze.

Nothing wrong with pissing in public. I dont know why it would bother you so much. If you are out at 3am in temple bar then you should accept the risk of standing in someone elses piss or vomit

WilyCoyote

Jesus MadzL, didn't read your OP title fully. I read it as Give Gardaí credit. I thought you had lost it
But every action should have an equal and opposite reaction. How about the punters having one to charge the Gardaí for:
Double parking outside cafes
Flying down the road with siren flashing to catch the fight in Fair City
Parking in non parking areas near copshops etc

Christ the Redeemer

I do not want to live in the world that Madsl envisions.

clairefontaine

No. Citizens have the right to dispute a fine. Don't want to see cops turning into tax collectors.