LCU League Cups 2013 not rated?

Airbender

Hi, I notice that this year's Leinster League Cups haven't been included in ICU tournament ratings.

So for example

http://ratings.icu.ie/tournaments

doesn't have the Branagan Cup, or the Killane Shield, or the William Brennan Cup!

Does anybody know why it happened?

The cup competitions definitely took place; they ended in June and I played in one of them. The LCU website still has listings from the last year (2012): http://www.leinsterchess.com/cups2012/index.htm - but I couldn't find any information on this year's cups. No tables, no results, no winners. So I was wondering how long are we going to be kept in the dark?

cdeb

I assume the results haven't been sent in yet. It's partly moot as the results, when they are submitted, can be slotted in in correct time order so that the ratings are still correct. I imagine if you're really interested, you should drop the controller a line, but other than that, I'd be fairly sure they'll be rated sooner or later.

Same problem with some of the Irish Championship tournaments.

Airbender

Well, we did speak to the controller a month ago, and we heard that the results were going to be posted on the LCU website before the end of June and subsequently submitted for ICU rating. You know the rest.

cdeb

I can guess.

The new ratings site is brilliant; the only problem with it is that people's expectations are now after soaring! Want my new rating NOW, dammit!

Airbender

Yes, the new ratings site is very good; it makes it easy to follow the events. As for 'want my rating NOW', I like this attitude. Chess players are destined to be a wee bit vain, don't you think?

Ciaran

The Brennan isn't even finished yet amazingly. Drogheda only won their semi final last weekend.

Airbender

Really? This is unbelievable. The other two cups must definitely be finished by now. I only have the results from the Branagan Cup; here they are:

Semifinals
Elm Mount beat St Benildus 4.5-1.5
Bray beat Balbriggan 5-1

Final
Elm Mount beat Bray 4.5-1.5

Airbender

There was another post on here which, strangely enough, didn't find its way onto this page. The User Bigtoe7 mentioned a useful resource, so I'll repost it, just in case.


BIGTOE7 WROTE:

"if players want they can calculate their own ratings, simple, here i put a link for a good one. Just put in your k factor in the calculator, your rating at start of tournament and your opponent's, and it tells you how many points you have lost or gained in that match and do that for all the matches you played in a tournament and add them all up. Only problem is that if one of your opponents gets bonus points it will have an effect on your result in that match.

http://www.3dkingdoms.com/chess/elo.htm "

cdeb

Fairly sure the Killane is finished; it was only a small tournament compared to the others. Not sure it even had semi-finals. Think it was possibly even just one big group.

Airbender

The Branagan Cup 2013 now rated: http://ratings.icu.ie/tournaments/329

bigtoe7

this came out couple of weeks ago.

Airbender

The other two League cups still aren't rated. No results or tables on the LCU site either.

cdeb

The Brennan Cup final hasn't been played yet. Elm Mount got through on Monday; they'll face Drogheda in the final.

Airbender

The Killane and the Brennan are supposed to be rated before the September rating list is published. It would be a shame if they were to be omitted. Let's hope it won't come to this.

L1m1tless

Who won the William Brennan?

cdeb

Don't think the final's been played yet.

Who won the Killane though? That should be played and rated by now surely? Was a much smaller tournament (one group, I think)

Airbender

I wish I knew... The Killane is still not rated. Of the three cups, only the Branagan is. Unlike the last year, the LCU website gives no information on any of the cups, so we're left in the dark.

cdeb

Inchicore's site gives this as the final table in the Killane -

Bray 24 13
Inchicore 24 12
Rathmines 24 12
Elm Mount 24 11
Phibsboro 24 11

That was posted two months ago. Controller mustn't have gotten around to sending the results in to be rated yet. I think it's Rory Delaney, who I think is fairly up to his eyes with college work. It's why the LCU made such an attempt to find a new tournament controller at the recent AGM, but no-one put themselves forward.

cdeb

From the ICU website -

For some time now, controllers have been recommended to submit rating reports as soon as possible after the end of a tournament so that players can log in to the ratings site to check their performance. For weekenders, that means the day after the tournament ends (or even the same night if possible). The problem is that some controllers are still taking weeks to submit.
Today the ICU executive unanimously endorsed a proposal for a maximum delay of one week between the end of a tournament and reporting of its results. Note that for FIDE rated tournaments, this is in accordance with their regulation 9.1.

No indication of what'll happen if a tournament isn't submitted in time, but presumably it just doesn't get rated.

That'd indicate that we'll either have Killane ratings in the next week, or people just lose out on any rating points gained.

Airbender

If this is the case and the League Cups don't get rated this year, this will be their demise. Who will want to play in these competitions in 2014 if they are not rated? The controllers who are taking weeks or even months to submit are letting us down. They shouldn't be appointed to those positions ever again.

cdeb

But if there's no-one going for the roles, then everyone has to shoulder some blame surely?

The current controller has indicated he wants away from the position because of time.

Airbender

Well, Rory Delaney can at least submit the rating reports for the Killane and the Brennan before he leaves. I wish him well and am grateful for all the hard work he's done but we definitely need somebody else for that role in the future.

Sparks

Maybe it'll be the push needed to get more volunteers? That 2% rule is an absolute killer in almost every Irish sport

cdeb

Airbender wrote: »

Well, Rory Delaney can at least submit the rating reports for the Killane and the Brennan before he leaves.

Don't forget the Brennan still isn't finished yet. I don't know what the rules are about sending in partially-completed tournaments for rating. Though I can be fairly sure Mark Orr wouldn't like it.

Airbender

Cdeb, I am sure Mark won't like it. But the Brennan will definitely be finished one of these days, so let's hope the report will be submitted in due time.

Sparks, can you elaborate on that 2 per cent rule, please? Is it about volunteering? Does it apply to chess?

Sparks

Airbender wrote: »

Sparks, can you elaborate on that 2 per cent rule, please? Is it about volunteering? Does it apply to chess?

The rule goes "98% of the work is done by 2% of the people", and yes it's about volunteering. It seems to apply to darn near every Irish club (exceptions tend to be for certain sports in certain areas, like GAA football in Kerry -- the same sport in other areas still have the problem). Everyone I've ever talked to from any of the NGBs over the years has the same complaint (worse yet, noone has ever come up with a practical solution)

Airbender

You're right, this is the main problem with amateur sport. As for the LCU, maybe one of the division controllers will step up and take up where Rory Delaney left off?

cdeb

Course, the problem is that clubs have to be run too. And teams have to be captained. That takes a good cohort out of the running for LCU (myself included, for example). And then those who go to the LCU AGMs are, by definition, those who run the clubs and have less time available for to stand for the LCU. Bit of a Catch 22.

mikhail

There are new tournament controllers, but they weren't involved in running the cups. Submitting the results is Rory's job as far as I know, unless he's specifically handed the results over to someone else. I expect they'll be rated before long.

Airbender

The Killane Shield was won by Drogheda who beat Elm Mount in the final 4.5-1.5. According to the Elm Mount site, this happened on the second week of June, i.e. two-and-a-half months ago. The results apparently haven't been submitted to the ICU, and so the competition isn't rated. The same fate probably awaits this year's William Brennan Cup. Who cares?

Irish Warrior

Airbender wrote: »

The Killane Shield was won by Drogheda who beat Elm Mount in the final 4.5-1.5. According to the Elm Mount site, this happened on the second week of June, i.e. two-and-a-half months ago. The results apparently haven't been submitted to the ICU, and so the competition isn't rated. The same fate probably awaits this year's William Brennan Cup. Who cares?

I think that's the 2012 result for the Killane Shield, as Drogheda didn't enter a team into it this year.

Drogheda still have to play Elm Mount in the final of the William Brennan.

Airbender

You're right, this is the 2012 result. Sorry about that. So the final of the William Brennan hasn't been played yet?

Irish Warrior

Airbender wrote: »

You're right, this is the 2012 result. Sorry about that. So the final of the William Brennan hasn't been played yet?

From Drogheda website on August 14th:

Elm Mount beat Bray/Greystones 4-2 on Monday night so we will play them in the final. No details yet on when that may be

When its played I'm sure they'll post about it no matter the result. I'd say Drogheda will win it.

cdeb

Yep. And there is no Killane final, I think, as it's just a five-team round-robin group.

Also, the league fixtures were due out today per LCU rules, but no sign. I think clubs need to urge people to get more involved in the LCU. There's nobody coming through to replace people who want to step down and presumably don't have the time they'd like to give to the roles.

L1m1tless

Airbender wrote: »

The Killane Shield was won by Drogheda who beat Elm Mount in the final 4.5-1.5. According to the Elm Mount site, this happened on the second week of June, i.e. two-and-a-half months ago. The results apparently haven't been submitted to the ICU, and so the competition isn't rated. The same fate probably awaits this year's William Brennan Cup. Who cares?

I care cos I did pretty good in it and could do with the rating points!

Airbender

I bet you are not the only one! So shall we all go cap in hand to Rory Delaney asking him to submit the results of the Killane and the Brennan for rating?

cdeb

Drop him an e-mail sure. I've already e-mailed Peter Scott asking about the league fixtures for the coming season (there's an AGM-agreed deadline of 31 August for their release, and they're computerised this year, which we were told meant they'd be much easier now).

But again, it comes down to not enough people getting involved in the LCU.

Ciaran

For consistency's sake, could the Branagan be unrated too? I'd like my 11 rating points back.

Airbender

The LCU website has been revamped, and every mention of the LCU Cups 2013 has been removed from it, as though these competitions never took place. So I reckon all the questions about them should be addressed to the current LCU President Charlie Talbot. His contact details are available here: http://www.leinsterchess.com/contacts.htm Drop him an e-mail.

cdeb

Looks like the league fixtures are imminent anyway.

Airbender

So now we can relax and forget that we have played in the ghost cups and even paid the fees for them to the LCU who couldn't be bothered to post the results on their site and to submit them for rating? Maybe the LCU will do the honourable thing and declare these cups null and void, subsequently reimbursing the participating clubs?

Airbender

Latest news: the final of the Brennan Cup will be played tomorrow. The Killane and the Brennan Cups will be included in the September rating list.

Irish Warrior

From Elm Mount website

Elm Mount finished runners-up in the William Brennan Cup, losing 2.5 to 3.5 to Drogheda in the final.

Airbender

Irish Warrior wrote: »

I'd say Drogheda will win it (the Brennan Cup).

No surprise then. Anybody knows who won the Killane this year?

cdeb

Bray (see post #18 in this thread)

Three-in-a-row for Drogheda. Matches St Benildus' achievement in the Killane. Don't think any other club has done three-in-a-row in the cups. Presume there's been an instance in the Armstrong?

EnPassant

cdeb wrote: »

Bray (see post #18 in this thread)

Three-in-a-row for Drogheda. Matches St Benildus' achievement in the Killane. Don't think any other club has done three-in-a-row in the cups. Presume there's been an instance in the Armstrong?

Elm Mount have won the Branagan for the last 3 years Phibsboro have won it 3 times in a row also.

See http://www.irlchess.com/branagan-cup/

cdeb

I see the September ratings list is officially out now, with no Brennan or Killane. So presumably these now aren't going to get rated?

L1m1tless

cdeb wrote: »

I see the September ratings list is officially out now, with no Brennan or Killane. So presumably these now aren't going to get rated?

Yeah, saw that too. Bad form if they are not rated. :mad:

Airbender

Airbender wrote: »

So now we can forget that we have played in the ghost cups and even paid the fees for them to the LCU who couldn't be bothered to post the results on their site and to submit them for rating. Maybe the LCU will do the honourable thing and declare these cups null and void, subsequently reimbursing the participating clubs?

It seems like what I said weeks ago is still relevant. The following is from Rory Delaney's e-mail to me:

"Both [League cups] will be included in time for the September rating list."

So it turned out to be an empty promise - unless the ICU are going to adjust the rating list by the end of the month to accommodate the League cups.

L1m1tless

Anybody know if these will ever be rated?

Airbender

I don't think this will ever happen. Also, I don't think that our club will enter teams for the Killane Shield and the William Brennan Cup in April 2014. There's no point in paying the money to the LCU for participation in the ghost cups where the results are never announced or rated.