Right or left wing?

steddyeddy · 27-07-2013 04:04PM #1

When people say an idea is left or right wing what do they mean exactly. I have beard the same idea being described as left or right wing by different people.

pharmaton · 27-07-2013 04:05PM

middle of centre
I think of it like a great flying eagle and I have to sit in the middle to keep it balanced.

banquo · 27-07-2013 04:06PM

Right.

Duckworth_Luas · 27-07-2013 04:09PM

I'm half left, half right!

Burky126 · 27-07-2013 04:10PM

I prefer the Drumstick

HurtLocker · 27-07-2013 04:10PM

My take is;

Left wing = More Public Money spent, more public services and higher taxes

Right Wing = Less Public money spent, less public services and lower taxes

It's down to individuals to decide what they consider high or low tax and how much public expenditure is too much or too little.

losthorizon · 27-07-2013 04:13PM

I'm just left of centre but Ireland is possibly the most right wing country in Europe.

It takes a special nation to be more right wing than the USA but we manage it.

Agricola · 27-07-2013 04:13PM

Left wing - Kind hearted, compassionate, thinking people who believe in helping others

Right wing - Capitalist crazies who would shoot their own mother if she was between them and a dole scrounger who needed a good kicking.

1ZRed · 27-07-2013 04:14PM

Does anyone else not have a fucking clue what neoliberals, social democrats or any other shite is or are when it comes to politics either?

losthorizon · 27-07-2013 04:14PM

HurtLocker wrote: »

My take is;

Left wing = More Public Money spent, more public services and higher taxes

Right Wing = Less Public money spent, less public services and lower taxes

It's down to individuals to decide what they consider high or low tax and how much public expenditure is too much or too little.

Surely too simplistic.

Pai Mei · 27-07-2013 04:28PM

Left wing liberal. (pro-choice, for gay marriage etc.)

Right wing conservative. (pro-life, anti gay marriage etc.)

And all the sh1te that goes with them.

Ten of Swords · 27-07-2013 04:40PM

Left wing: Political focus is on the people
Right wing: Political focus is on the state

This sums it up pretty well,

http://www.domovod.info/zzimages/PolSpectrum5.png

Conmaicne Mara · 27-07-2013 04:42PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

When people say an idea is left or right wing what do they mean exactly. I have beard the same idea being described as left or right wing by different people.

Jack O'Connor?

wendell borton · 27-07-2013 04:45PM

What's the difference between a social democrat and a democratic socialist?

Duckworth_Luas · 27-07-2013 04:49PM

wendell borton wrote: »

What's the difference between a social democrat and a democratic socialist?

Isn't it obvious? For example:

Governor of North Dakota, Jack Johnson, is a social democrat.

Governor of South Dakota, John Jackson, is a democratic socialist.

Massive difference!

Peregrine · 27-07-2013 05:17PM

The traditional left and right wing line is flawed.

Really, you're measuring two things: economic and social values.

Economically left, you're talking anything from social welfare, public services, no completely free market(regulated to stop abuse) etc. or more extreme left ideas like nationalisation of industries.

Socially, they're really liberal. Usually support same sex marriage, social equality, usually pro-choice and so on..

The right on the other hand:

Economically they're capitalists, they tend to support privatisation and free markets. Free market sounds like a blast but it could lead to one person being really rich and others working as slaves. These are extreme ideas though, there's always in between.

Socially, they're more conservative. They support tradition and they oppose things like homosexuality, abortion.

Once again, I'm not tarring anyone, these are usually the more extreme ideas. You chose what values you have. There's no rule than you have to be on either side, same with parties. They could have different ideas and things like nationalism and religion of the country affects this.

On the traditional left and right line, nazism, fascism or just conservatism would be right wing and communism, liberalism and socialism would be left wing. Then there's the centre.

P.S. I could be wrong on some of those things, I'm open to correction.

TheHeretic · 27-07-2013 05:21PM

Classical right and left had a very real meaning. It's not as clear anymore but there is some basic differences. It all revolves around to what extent the power of the state is exercised over public life & affairs.

People with Left wing attitudes tend/ed to allow the state more far-reaching powers to run services, control education, interfere in the labour market, and to create large tax bases for income redistribution. Left wing is more collectivist as the state overrules individual natural rights in favour of group rights of different economic classes living within the state. Welfare plays a large role, as wealth redistribution serves as a control to transfer wealth to less GDP productive parts of the economy.

People with Right wing attitudes tend/ed to value natural rights first [individual rights, income, privacy, personal labour]. They don't believe that the state is able to correct absolutely every problem of society so reject the view of state inference in matters of property, privileges, taxing and the market. They believe that positive change starts with the individual, not with the state. They prefer to leave economic workings to enterprising individuals who by extension benefit their communities by creating wealth [thus jobs] and better resource management [thus social and economic development].

I myself tend to the right in more ways than to the left. I believe that larger states mean larger corruption, and I can see this as a historical trend. I don't think the state can correct everything, in fact it can make matters worse [like the 'bail outs' - socializing private debt] I think that the state should run the most essential services, like defense, policing, some roading, but that's it.

Most humans are smart, enterprising and eager to improve things, so I think we should retain our rights and sovereignty in order to create betterment for ourselves; whereas as the state can only 'make' things via taxing the fruits of our labour. That's a lot different and very inefficient when we could just do it ourselves.

wendell borton · 27-07-2013 05:27PM

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Isn't it obvious? For example:

Governor of North Dakota, Jack Johnson, is a social democrat.

Governor of South Dakota, John Jackson, is a democratic socialist.

Massive difference!

Now that you mention Dakota, N. Dakota has a state owned bank and manufacturing industries which by Fox news standards makes it a commie state.

dotsman · 27-07-2013 05:29PM

losthorizon wrote: »

I'm just left of centre but Ireland is possibly the most right wing country in Europe.

It takes a special nation to be more right wing than the USA but we manage it.

You have to be joking. Ireland has traditionally been centre-left wing (flirting with left wing) regarding most policies (especially economic). Only on social and religious grounds has it ever gone to the centre-right (some times the actual right).

As at today, I would say that Ireland is centre left in most things (especially economics), centre on a few (including some social policies) and still centre-right on religious policies.

Duckworth_Luas · 27-07-2013 05:30PM

wendell borton wrote: »

Now that you mention Dakota, N. Dakota has a state owned bank and manufacturing industries which by Fox news standards makes it a commie state.

That's Jack Johnson for you! :mad:

Pherekydes · 27-07-2013 05:31PM

Left wingers care about what people do in work; right wingers care about what people do at home.

Duckworth_Luas · 27-07-2013 05:32PM

dotsman wrote: »

As at today, I would say that Ireland is centre left in most things (especially economics), centre on a few (including some social policies) and still centre-right on religious policies.

So when it comes to fence sitting we're somewhere in the middle?

wendell borton · 27-07-2013 05:32PM

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

That's Jack Johnson for you! :mad:

N. Dakota has the lowest unemployment in the US, so he must be doing something right.:D

Mr.Prodston · 27-07-2013 05:33PM

I can certainly tell you I prefer the left phalange to the right phalange

biko · 27-07-2013 05:35PM

Left - state rule
Right - individual rule
as I see it but there's really a difference on case basis rather.

Tbh I find that the more extreme you get to left or right, the more similar and controlling they get.

Stabshauptmann · 27-07-2013 06:10PM

I could tell you what it means, but google could do that better. Whats probably more important is what the people you talk to think it means.

losthorizon · 27-07-2013 06:14PM

dotsman wrote: »

You have to be joking. Ireland has traditionally been centre-left wing (flirting with left wing) regarding most policies (especially economic). Only on social and religious grounds has it ever gone to the centre-right (some times the actual right).

As at today, I would say that Ireland is centre left in most things (especially economics), centre on a few (including some social policies) and still centre-right on religious policies.

Point out those things for me please! I would like to be educated.

Stabshauptmann · 27-07-2013 06:20PM

losthorizon wrote: »

Point out those things for me please! I would like to be educated.

Social welfare is the obvious example (though far left would disagree)
We have liberal laws (though I know many pro-choice would disagree)

Basically, if you are further to the left than Ireland is, then you will see us as right wing. And vice versa. Its hard to be objective on subjective issues.

IMO, Ireland is centre left

btard · 27-07-2013 06:41PM

The origin of left/right politics goes back to the French Revolution and the seating arrangements of the General Assembly. The aristocrats and supporters of the old regime sat on the right while commoners and proponents of the political ideas inspired by the Enlightenment sat on the left. So conservative ideas came to be associated with the right wing, and republicanism, socialism, and civil liberties to the left wing.

dotsman · 27-07-2013 09:13PM

losthorizon wrote: »

Point out those things for me please! I would like to be educated.

Always happy to educate.

Unfortunately, one could right a book about this and still only scratch the surface, so a post in after hours is hardly going to be in-depth, however, I will give it a try. I will assume you are referring to economic policies (we can discuss others if you want) so let's take a very high level look at them:

Category|Extreme Left|Left|Centre-left|Centre|Centre-right|Right|Extreme Right

Minimum Wage:|The only wage (Everybody earns the same low wage regardless of their economic output)|Very high|High|Moderate|Low (more notional than anything)|None|Slavery (being forced to work for nothing)

Personal Taxation:|100% or 0% whichever way you look at it (Basically, it can be viewed that everybody gets the same low wage tax free, or everybody surrenders their entire wage and gets a token welfare payment in return to live on)|High, punitive on high incomes|High (progressive taxation)|Medium (little difference between low and high incomes)|Low (typically constant rate)|Token|None

Welfare:|Very high/None (as per above, it all depends on how you view the state payment you receive|Very high|High|Medium (often with term-lenghts)|Low, for short terms (state welfare is low, people are expected to have private savings/insurance to cover illness/unemployment to subside)|Only in exceptional cases (born with disabilities etc - people are supposed to have private savings/insurance to cover the bad times)|None (anyone not able to fend for themselves should rely on family/charity or tough $hit)

Public Sector:|Everybody is public sector!|Very high (most services are provided by the state)|High (typically bloated and inefficient)|Moderate (some inefficiencies)|Small and efficient (strong reliance on private sector to provide many services)|Minimal (pretty much consists of overseeing private companies who provide the services)|Token(virtually all services are provide by private companies)

Trade Unions:|Only 1 allowed (the trade union that runs the state! All others ruthlessly oppressed)|Very strong (most adults are members. Controls much of government decisions across the board)|Strong (High membership in certain sectors such as manufacturing and public sectors. Strongly influences government decisions relating to the economy)|Moderate (strong membership in some sectors, non in others. No real national power, but would be flirted with by politicians)|Low (typically only some companies would have members. No national strength and more inclined to negotiate on behalf of employees on specific matters relating to a specific company)|Minor presence (no legal recognition, banned in certain, notably public, sectors and mainly used to represent/assist employees in negotiations/disciplinary hearings etc|Banned

State Ownership:|The state owns everything (including the people!)|Very high (Some small businesses allowed, but most industries state owned)|High (Private companies allowed in most sectors, but some large state monopolies still protected/subsidised)|Low (State bodies typically only exist in strategic industries where no suitable private alternative is available)|Little to none (a specific industry may be state controlled on a temporary basis for strategic purposes, but always looking for private sector to take over)|None|The corporation owns everything (including the people!)

Entrepreneurship:|Forbidden|Extremely difficult|Allowed, but not encouraged|Some state assistance|Encouraged|Successful Entrepreneurs are the A-list celebrities

Where is Ireland on the above table? Well, one can debate certain points, but I think most people would agree on the following high level classifications:

Minimum Wage:|Centre-left (possibly Left).
Personal Taxation:|Again, Ireland is Centre-left
Welfare:|Somewhere between Left and Centre-left
Public Sector:|Again, Centre-left
Trade Unions:|Again, Centre-left
State Ownership:|Thankfully moving towards the centre (was traditionally Centre-left).
Entrepreneurship:|Hard to say. Different start-ups will tell you different things. Probably in the Centre

So, overall, I would regard Ireland as being Centre left in economic terms. Funnily, when you ask most people on their ideals, most give centre-right answers, but given that most lobbyists and those with political influence (such as trade unions/media etc represent Left and Centre-left views, we never quite get the policies we want)

Wherever you're political idealism is, anything to the right of you is right wing and vice-versa. It's always amusing hearing people with Left-wing views describe those with centre-left views as "right wing fascists" while those with Right-wing views describe those on the Centre-right as "liberal hippies" etc.

hatrickpatrick · 27-07-2013 09:29PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

When people say an idea is left or right wing what do they mean exactly. I have beard the same idea being described as left or right wing by different people.

The right claims to be in favour of small government, freedom, and a free market in which there's less of a safety net. The trouble is, they refuse to apply these principles to bankers and bondholders who make bad investments, to corporations, to gay people who want to get married, to people who oppose pervasive government spying and internment in the name of "security", etc etc etc.

Some elements of the right are ok, but unfortunately for a movement whose mantra is "small government", there are far too many people involved who believe that the government has a right to dictate the personal morality of consenting adults and decide how much privacy we "deserve". F*ck that.

EDIT: I suppose my big problem with the right is that they assume it's ok to state their beliefs as "small government" when they only mean that in terms of money. Personal freedom is far more important to me and the right wants to strip a lot of that away. You can have all the money you want out of my wallet, but don't dare tell me I can't live with my girlfriend before getting married or that you have the right to rifle through my private mails on Facebook just in case I might be a terrorist.

Right or left wing?

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