Pat Rabbitte abused and intimidated in Donehy & Nesbitts

Cody Pomeray

What does it even matter?

This is Ireland.

Society has a valid expectation of a well run health system. Do things have to be as bad as they are in Bangladesh before we have a right to complain? Can people not say something is 'shambolic' without the "things are worse in Eritrea" defence? Ridiculous!

djpbarry

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

What does it even matter?

Perspective matters.

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Society has a valid expectation of a well run health system.

By global standards, Ireland has a very good healthcare system. Even by OECD standards, Ireland's healthcare compares very favourably.

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Do things have to be as bad as they are in Bangladesh before we have a right to complain?

Nope.

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Can people not say something is 'shambolic' without the "things are worse in Eritrea" defence?

The point is that Ireland's healthcare system is far from "shambolic". It's definitely not perfect and there's definitely room for improvement, but it's hardly shambolic. If people think that it is a shambles, then, well, it's unlikely that it will never meet their unrealistic expectations, no matter how much it improves.

lufties

djpbarry wrote: »

Perspective matters.
By global standards, Ireland has a very good healthcare system. Even by OECD standards, Ireland's healthcare compares very favourably.
Nope.
The point is that Ireland's healthcare system is far from "shambolic". It's definitely not perfect and there's definitely room for improvement, but it's hardly shambolic. If people think that it is a shambles, then, well, it's unlikely that it will never meet their unrealistic expectations, no matter how much it improves.

50 euro to see a doctor for a check up is shambolic, meanwhile, the uk, france, netherlands, germany get free healthcare. In Ireland healthcare is big business, especially for private companies.

endacl

lufties wrote: »

50 euro to see a doctor for a check up is shambolic, meanwhile, the uk, france, netherlands, germany get free healthcare. In Ireland healthcare is big business, especially for private companies.

While I kinda agree with you in principle, the UK, France, The Netherlands and Germany certainly don't get free healthcare. It appears free at the point of patient interface, but it still has to be paid for. Its a question of how the system as a whole is organized.

goose2005

Albert X wrote: »

They have made huge cuts to welfare, Back to school allowance cut 50% in two years, communion allowance abolished, Child benifit cut €10, respite grant cut €400, 60% cut in income disregard for single parents and widows. fuel allowance cut €120 per year. Telephone and ESB allowance cut for oaps.

True, they have been cut - but a lot of them were increased to unsustainable levels so that FF could buy votes using temporary stamp duty income. How many are below 2001 levels (you know, the last time we had a functioning economy?)

Blahblah2012

Pat was lucky that he had protection by the looks of things. Either that or the protesters showed restraint and stuck to being vocal(which they have every right to do).

As for handling it well..he looked like a rabbit in the headlights(no pun intended)..didn't know what to do. Must have filled his nappy.

The governments performance is despicable. What a sham.

lufties

endacl wrote: »

While I kinda agree with you in principle, the UK, France, The Netherlands and Germany certainly don't get free healthcare. It appears free at the point of patient interface, but it still has to be paid for. Its a question of how the system as a whole is organized.

I also lived in germany for a year and a half, Any trips to the doctor cost nothing, I remember getting my finger stitched up in A&E and it cost about 12 euro, the waiting time on that particular night was about ten minutes.

endacl

lufties wrote: »

I also lived in germany for a year and a half, Any trips to the doctor cost nothing, I remember getting my finger stitched up in A&E and it cost about 12 euro, the waiting time on that particular night was about ten minutes.

You're dead right. There's sometimes a perception here that other countries 'get things for free' though. They don't. They just organize things better. Might be an idea here. We're spending Germany's cash. Should we not just let them sort the place out so it works properly?

michael999999

lufties wrote: »

I also lived in germany for a year and a half, Any trips to the doctor cost nothing, I remember getting my finger stitched up in A&E and it cost about 12 euro, the waiting time on that particular night was about ten minutes.

My child spent 3 nights in a semi private room in a hospital in Paris,France.

Just received the bill this week.

€180.

Cody Pomeray

djpbarry wrote: »

Perspective matters.
By global standards, Ireland has a very good healthcare system. Even by OECD standards, Ireland's healthcare compares very favourably.

Perspective does not matter to a statement of opinion that a process or service is "shambolic" in its own right.

If your mechanic puts fairy liquid in your engine where the oil should go, and you tell his boss that this man's proficiency is "shambolic", it shall not be a legitimate response for the garage owner to say "well at least he didn't set fire to your car".

Because things can always be worse. That is not important. What matters is whether or not a service or a process is adequate - or shambolic - in its own right.

The things are worse in Eritrea argument is a facepalm moment. By that logic, we should never complain about anything. Because even though non complaining will mean our system remains the same, and things in Eritrea get no better, at least things are worse in Eritrea.

It's not a grown up argument.

lufties

endacl wrote: »

You're dead right. There's sometimes a perception here that other countries 'get things for free' though. They don't. They just organize things better. Might be an idea here. We're spending Germany's cash. Should we not just let them sort the place out so it works properly?

I think you could be right, bring the germans in to sort out Ireland out, but of course that would mean a bit of a halt for politicians on the gravy train, therefore it would never happen.

kabakuyu

michael999999 wrote: »

My child spent 3 nights in a semi private room in a hospital in Paris,France.

Just received the bill this week.

€180.

I spent 2 nights in an Irish hospital (4 beds in ward) had a cat scan and some other tests ,saw 2 consultants(differenr disciplines) and it cost me 150E, no medical card oe insurance,I just elected to have treatment under the public scheme.

shamrock55

There is a time and a place for protest and a man whoever it may be having a quiet pint in his own private time is not one of them

michael999999

shamrock55 wrote: »

There is a time and a place for protest and a man whoever it may be having a quiet pint in his own private time is not one of them

Why not?

He was meant to be in the dail, its just our politicians think the country is being run so we that they can go skulling pints in between votes in the dail!

raymon

I think he handled this very well . If Eirigi thugs were poking a smartfone in my face or were disturbing a pint I would have a hard time holding back from kicking one of them in the nuts.

View

lufties wrote: »

50 euro to see a doctor for a check up is shambolic, meanwhile, the uk, france, netherlands, germany get free healthcare. In Ireland healthcare is big business, especially for private companies.

Healthcare has to be paid for by somebody somewhere - it is never "free". That money has to come from taxes which probably means from YOUR taxes.

Ireland too could adopt a system like those other countries. However, there has never been any sort of meaningful support in favour of it.

Labour if I remember correctly did propose that idea back in '02 but it went down poorly with the electorate - they actually lost seats not gained them.

People preferred to opt for "low taxes" so they could put their money into property instead.

View

michael999999 wrote: »

Why not?

He was meant to be in the dail, its just our politicians think the country is being run so we that they can go skulling pints in between votes in the dail!

So if he has a pint in the Dáil bar it is okay but not in D&N's bar?

Aineoil

This was bully boy tactics...fair and square. Nobody deserves that kind of treatment, whether you agree or disagree with them. There are platforms to say you agree or disagree with something or a decision that someone has made, heckling a minister on his way from Leinster House to a pub is not the way.

He was a man on his own being shouted at by a group, that's scary. If one person had a grievance and accosted him, I would still see that at being wrong, but at least it would be one on one.

Did they go to his constituency office and voice their problems? I bet they didn't...it's so easy to hide behind a group and shout at a politician. Total lack of respect and just bullying. Isn't just amazing that bullies need a group around them to feel empowered?

Imagine if they were in power? I have two words for them..........Éirigí as!

Aineoil

View wrote: »

So if he has a pint in the Dáil bar it is okay but not in D&N's bar?

I don't understand either. I don't think the man was having a pint, he was trying to escape a mob and he spent most of the time on his phone.

Blahblah2012

Aineoil wrote: »

I don't understand either. I don't think the man was having a pint, he was trying to escape a mob and he spent most of the time on his phone.

Such a tough life.

If we weren't swamped with state apologists maybe we would rid ourselves of the corrupt p1sstakers that grace the Dail(and their friends in the banks) and clean up this country once and for all.

lufties

View wrote: »

Healthcare has to be paid for by somebody somewhere - it is never "free". That money has to come from taxes which probably means from YOUR taxes.

Ireland too could adopt a system like those other countries. However, there has never been any sort of meaningful support in favour of it.

Labour if I remember correctly did propose that idea back in '02 but it went down poorly with the electorate - they actually lost seats not gained them.

People preferred to opt for "low taxes" so they could put their money into property instead.

As far as I remeber there is not a big difference in paying taxes in Ireland and Germany, I remember doing the calculation and with regard to my salary, the tax bill was around 6k in the difference, but then after doing a tax return I got around 5-6k back in a lump sum so it balances out.

Mr.Micro

lufties wrote: »

50 euro to see a doctor for a check up is shambolic, meanwhile, the uk, france, netherlands, germany get free healthcare. In Ireland healthcare is big business, especially for private companies.

In the UK what sort of service are people getting free?

Hospital trusts rapped over major failures

Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt said the trusts, among 14 investigated for high death rates, had problems so entrenched that tough action was needed.

among the common themes listed were:

• Patients being left on trolleys, unmonitored for excessive periods and then being talked down to by consultants

• Poor maintenance in operating theatres, potentially putting patients in danger

• Patients often being moved repeatedly between wards without being told why

• Staff working for 12 days in a row without a break

• Backlogs in complaints

• A patient inappropriately exposed where there were both male and female patients present

• Low levels of clinical cover - especially out of hours

• Hospital boards being unaware of potential problems, including a spate of still births

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-23315869

13,000 died needlessly at 14 worst NHS trusts

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/heal-our-hospitals/10178296/13000-died-needlessly-at-14-worst-NHS-trusts.html


I do not like the big costs associated here either and there are big improvements needed as well, but free,in eg. the UK is not always up to scratch, dangerous and even fatal in some cases.

Turner

Just watched the video and all I could hear was alot of screaming and shouting.. Its hard to know what their intention or objective was.


If these were Eirigi members, maybe they were angry about the Government and their pledge last week to restart Garda recruitment to bolster Garda numbers.

Eirigi have never been fond of the Gardai and even more so after their plan to add a military wing to their "cause" was scuppered by the ERU. They had allegedly planned to rob a gun store.

From independent.ie

A number of Eirigi sympathisers are being questioned by gardai about the incident in which officers from the Emergency Response Unit intercepted an armed gang as they were about to go into the premises.

Two handguns were seized as well as a stolen car, a can of petrol, balaclavas, wigs and gloves. Three men and a woman, all from Dublin, were arrested outside The Tackle Shop, at Rahan, near Tullamore, Co Offaly, on Tuesday night.

I just find it bewildering at the amount of people that gripe and complain about political parties/politicians, but will be back out in 2016, voting for them again.

Am Chile

This was originally posted on another thread on this incident- Im reposting as the poster claimed they arent members of eirigi-even though some papers reported they were all eirigi members I think its important to hear out the other side of the story-I looked at the video and seen some flags in the background just because some of the protesters had flags doesnt automatically mean they were members of a republican group-but below is a one protesters version of the story.

couple of points there lads....................

the 3 who spotted and spoke to him first are NOT in eirigi

how many people are unable to "go for a pint" due to financial restrictions, a direct cause of labour/fg policies?

how many of you read the article?
"He stayed for a short time after the protesters were removed from the pub before returning to the Dail to cast a vote." - last week the country was up in arms over the dail bar being open during voting on the abortion legislation amendments, and what went on that night..... and this is so far removed...?

"As he left the pub, Mr Rabbitte told how the protesters had originally been outside the Dail but then followed him up to the pub." he was NOT followed anywhere, he was simply spotted by some protesters on their way home

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85573521&postcount=18

djpbarry

lufties wrote: »

50 euro to see a doctor for a check up is shambolic...

It’s not shambolic. It’s expensive, but it’s not shambolic.

Personally, I think it’s a good idea to charge for GP appointments. Maybe not as much as €50, but I don’t think it’s a bad idea in principle. It cuts down on unnecessary appointments and no-shows, both of which waste a lot of time and resources in the NHS, for example.

lufties wrote: »

...meanwhile, the uk, france, netherlands, germany get free healthcare.

As has been pointed out by several other posters, healthcare is not “free” anywhere.

djpbarry

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Perspective does not matter to a statement of opinion that a process or service is "shambolic" in its own right.

In my opinion it does. A subjective description is meaningless without a frame of reference.

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

The things are worse in Eritrea argument is a facepalm moment. By that logic, we should never complain about anything.

You’re completely missing my point. I never said that complaints should not be made. But those complaints should be reasoned. If a poster said “the floor in my local GP surgery is dirty” and I responded with “well, the floors in the developing world are probably dirtier”, you’d have a point. But that’s not what happened. The entire system was dismissed as shambolic. Now, that is meaningless without some sort of frame of reference. To me, shambolic implies that it can’t really get much worse, suggesting that Ireland’s healthcare is comparable to that found in some developing countries, which obviously is not the case.

AlekSmart

Mr.Micro wrote: »

In the UK what sort of service are people getting free?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-23315869

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/heal-our-hospitals/10178296/13000-died-needlessly-at-14-worst-NHS-trusts.html

I do not like the big costs associated here either and there are big improvements needed as well, but free,in eg. the UK is not always up to scratch, dangerous and even fatal in some cases.

It is also worth being aware that this "Trust" model is currently the flavour of the month in Irish Governmental circles,as it ticks all the pahlavah boxes about Independence,Efficiency,Community Based,etc,etc....whilst never straying far from it;s original Intention of allowing the major Private Sector Health Care Providers to get their grubby fingers even further into our repidly dwindling finances.

I'd suggest avoiding it like the plague,however a great many of the "Misters" involved in Irish Healthcare provision appear quite well disposed to it......;)

On a General level,there is bugger-all wrong with Irish Healthcare provision at the point of delivery.

However,as with most other areas of Irish Governance,there is a HUGE problem with our methods of Administering it....put simple,we appear incapable of it

The Fantastic Healthcare apparatus of other European countries uses essentially the same tools,people and procedures as our own,what differs radically is the way the Forreners administer it.

AlekSmart

Am Chile wrote: »

This was originally posted on another thread on this incident- Im reposting as the poster claimed they arent members of eirigi-even though some papers reported they were all eirigi members I think its important to hear out the other side of the story-I looked at the video and seen some flags in the background just because some of the protesters had flags doesnt automatically mean they were members of a republican group-but below is a one protesters version of the story.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85573521&postcount=18

Like most,he said-she said,situations the protagonists will be as economic with the truth as their cause requires.

From my own observations in and around Leinster House protests,the SWP and or Eirigi would be the two major contributors to each and every protest,whatever it's focus.

In many cases,small protest groups,are initially grateful for the added numbers and enthusiasm of the "supporters",however this tends to evaporate fairly quickly as the Local Groups find that their particular cause is merely another notch on the "Professionals" belt.

What SWP,Eirigi and other "Professional" groups appear to be unaware of is that MOST ordinary folk,who don't have time,or even reason to protest,see the constant presence of the same people in a somewhat different light.

I don't have much regard for Pat Rabbitte as a politician,but I'm more than aware that he secured a mandate in a Free Elective process,so if I'm ballyragging him,I must also,by association,be pointing the finger at those who voted for him also.

Perhaps it would suit the Protesters cause to be seen to force our elected Political representatives into darkened bullet-proof limo's...all of that would work wonders for the "Oppressive Government" line.

However,if you look at what the Ordinary Plain People of Ireland are spending their recreational time doing,you can see that it's not Protesting......

http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/thousands-flock-to-sundrenched-marlay-park-for-longitude-29433712.html

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/flying-farmer-and-daring-dentist-thrill-85000-at-air-show-29437487.html

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/eugene-mcgee-mythbreakers-expose-donegals-lack-of-plan-b-29437650.html

http://www.storiesfromthepit.com/gigsstoriesandreviews2/2013/6/15/2013-june-15th-bon-jovi-slane-castle.html

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/galleries/riverdance-world-record-attempt-1.1470654

.....ad infinitum

Sadly for the Protesting Classes,an event such as the Riverdance Line,attracts and involves more participation,spectating and enthusiasim than a skip-full of Anti-Austerity Politician Chasing along Kildare Street......It may be a painful reality,but it's reality nonetheless.....as yet we're not having it bad enough for MOST folks to swing in behind the Revolutionary Banners lad's....:(

Cody Pomeray

djpbarry wrote: »

To me, shambolic implies that it can’t really get much worse

I suggest the problem then arises out of your understanding of the word 'shambolic', an understanding that cannot be directly and rationally likened to its dictionary meaning.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/shambolic
adjective
informal, chiefly British
chaotic, disorganized, or mismanaged:

e.g. the department’s shambolic accounting

It is clear that a process or service can go transient periods of shambolism, and that it can be 'chaotic, disorganized, or mismanaged' without reference to even worse processes or services, that is to say it may be 'shambolic' without necessarily being the most chaotic, disorganized or mismanaged.